15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000

green man

I usually resign myself to posting replys on the musicans board as thats what interests me most, but I find this a rather interesting thread. Theres no doubt that many people in the public service do a fantastic job , doctors, nurses, gardai etc. and are deserving of a certain level of pay. But equally there are many who work in the public sector who are in it for the money and not the love of a job or profession, many who justify large saleries on high levels of education or experience. I think its these people who need to be roped in. I mean lets get real no one claims a doctor shouldn't have a good standard of living for the job he/she does but 40 euro or more for an appointment, its this over priced and self inflated sense of worth that has got us into this situation in the first place. Today we live in an Ireland that is a place unthinkable to our forefathers, once it was considered enough to have a roof over ones head and food in the belly but today everyone wants wealth and a standard of living that is just not economically sustainable. Those who have an education and in many cases a good job yern for wealth which is unreachable and those who are not bothered working demand support which in reality is not deserved or sustainable in the long term. You can all think of examples without me having to harp on about them.
So we want to save our nation from economic meltdown and want to achieve sustainable growth. Well then we all need to take a reality check. Even in this time of chaos we are still one of the richest nations on earth , our standard of living is one of the top ten in the world and we live without fear of tyranny, oppression or even annilation. We complain not for a loss of life or love but a loss of greed and money. Yes in todays modern Ireland we let our greed dictate our choices in life.
We can save ourselves from this situtaion right now by changing the way the country is run. Thant means cutting spending. Remember its only back in 2005 that we were only spending between 30 and 40 billion annually to run the country. A couple of years later its over 50 billlion. This doesnt make sense, (even taking inflation into account which by the way really doesnt mean a whole pile in this case) the figure has risen way more than it should have. remember all those give away unecessary budgets of the last few years that no one asked for in the first place, thats what we are paying for now and is the figure that we need to claw back.
For this next budget the self interested should take a step back, the patroitic should take a step forward thats what will save us.

Rob_l

green man wrote: »

Remember its only back in 2005 that we were only spending between 30 and 40 billion annually to run the country. A couple of years later its over 50 billlion. This doesnt make sense, (even taking inflation into account which by the way really doesnt mean a whole pile in this case) the figure has risen way more than it should have.

Can you back up those number on state spending?


One reason for an increase in spending is obvious anyway

December 1999 number employed 214,700

June 2005 number employed 249,200

Jun 2008 number employed 262,600

So in the nine years from 1999 to 2008 the civil service increased by nearly a quarter of its size from 1999 oh and inflation.

For me this is the real problem, cutting wages is not fair on the workers! The only realistic thing to do is slim down the public sector back to their sustainable levels.

This however means no new garda recruits, no new nurses, no doctors, larger class sizes in schools and so on.

These are the choices, cutting people wages because a bad government allowed these organisations to grow beyond sustainable levels and then getting the mindless public to swallow their stories that its the high wages and not the governments management of the country thats the issue is the part that seems like a fianna fail magic trick.


http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2000/psempearn_dec2000.pdf

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

ceret

green man wrote: »

Theres no doubt that many people in the public service do a fantastic job , doctors, nurses, gardai etc.

Eh?

How often do we hear about the corrupt guardí (Morris Tribunal)? The over crowded hospitals? I don't know about teachers, but based on my experience there were lots of incompetant teachers.

How can we slate the public sector for all these things, but then say that they are angels?

Rob_l

ceret wrote: »

I think there are about 68k nurses (source).

From your link i make it

Qualifications Registered and it makes it 91,786 active ( I am presuming this means employed) across the board

General 57,474
Psychiatric 9,796
Children's 4,076
Intellectual Disability 4,233
Midwifery 12,988
Nurse Prescriber 51
Public Health 2,378
Tutors' 562
Other 228

Total 91,786

Rob_l

ceret wrote: »

Eh?

How often do we hear about the corrupt guardí (Morris Tribunal)? The over crowded hospitals? I don't know about teachers, but based on my experience there were lots of incompetant teachers.

How can we slate the public sector for all these things, but then say that they are angels?

Those are individual cases, but I'll play your game. So!

Name me one profession that has not produced a criminal?

When you do we shall all name that profession the holiest profession in the world and from them we shall make our new government and priests.

unklerosco

Rob_l wrote: »

Name me one profession that has not produced a criminal?

When you do we shall all name that profession the holiest profession in the world and from them we shall make our new government and priests.

I like this game...

I'm going for Clowns

Kama

Also like this game.

I'm going with the Oldest Profession.

It's all the people pretending not to be whores who are the problem.

green man

to rob 1
Your points are the actions that need to be taken unfortunatelly painful but its is either this or in the long term bankrupt the country, my figures on spending are from http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/Viewprnt.asp?DocID=4364&StartDate=1+January+2009 if we could run a nation for that much back then dont tell me we cant do it now. It was the governments handling of spending that brought us hear it must be fixed or future generations will not forgive us.

ceret get real and grow up. Dont spend you entire life carrying hatred and bile around for everyone. Of course everyone is not a fantastic teacher but look at the ****e pupils give them, i am 21 and am deeply sorry for the actions i caused in school i was not an angel, and they should have expelled me several times but they believed in me when they could have got rid of me. Right now i am a postgraduate in nuim for it.
As for the police dont ever think everyone is a saint their not,

As for hosiptals its not the people who work in them that are to blame for the way there run , By the way there not that bad, 6 weeks ago i wrote off a car when i drove through a pole, im alive today because of the hospital.
Remember it is very easy to pick holes and critise others but i can guarantee your like would not exist without a state to rely on.

Rob_l

unklerosco wrote: »

I like this game...

I'm going for Clowns

Kama wrote: »

Also like this game.

I'm going with the Oldest Profession.

It's all the people pretending not to be whores who are the problem.

It both cases many members of both prefessions have committed crimes
I suggest you try this to find a suitable answer
www.google.com

jimmmy

Rob_l wrote: »

It both cases many members of both prefessions have committed crimes

But at least the taxpayer is not borrowing to pay them € 100,000 plus

Rob_l

green man wrote: »

to rob 1
Your points are the actions that need to be taken unfortunatelly painful but its is either this or in the long term bankrupt the country, my figures on spending are from http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/Viewprnt.asp?DocID=4364&StartDate=1+January+2009 if we could run a nation for that much back then dont tell me we cant do it now. It was the governments handling of spending that brought us hear it must be fixed or future generations will not forgive us..

I am not saying we cant, but cutting wages is not the answer the government has to admit that they have to cut the numbers employed not wages.

But either cutting wages or numbers will also cut the services and the quality of services available in the short and that has to be accepted

jimmmy

Why ? Do those in the public services in Europe do a worse job / provide a lesser quality service, just because they are paid 40% less?

Rob_l

jimmmy wrote: »

Why ? Do those in the public services in Europe do a worse job / provide a lesser quality service, just because they are paid 40% less?

Why was dell moved to poland?

jimmmy

Cheaper labour, well educated productive labour force, cheaper electricity, rates etc and cheaper overheads ( by far ) in a country where the average public sector wage is not 966 per week.

jimmmy

Rob_l wrote: »

Why was dell moved to poland?

Average Industrial wage in America is 41,000 dollars per year ( and shorter holidays than here ). ...about 27,500 euro.
Average public sector wage in Ireland ; approx 50,000 euro.
Why would they stay in this economy when they are competing with the govt to attract staff ?

muboop1

omahaid wrote: »

They have!!

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1015/nokia.html

no, profits are down, not number of handsets sold!

people are opting for cheaper phone and better deals now that they don't blow the cash around.

But carphone Warehouse commission doesn't work this way.

Set commission for a prepay vodafone network regardless of phone bought, contract a bigger sum. Etc...

So you could go in and buy 1 cheap pre pay phone and salesperson gets same pay as if it was the dear one!

Look dude, argue all you want, I worked there and still have friends working there. I'm not bull****ting you!

They also get 10% on all accessories sold(excluding VAT), going to argue that one to??

They make a rake.

Believe or don't I do not care, but you say I'm wrong actually prove it?

Specific stores im talking about are tallaght, city centre ones and Liffey Valley(who actually sell so much phones they are on a lesser commission structure due to insane amounts of phones sold).

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Cheaper labour, well educated productive labour force, cheaper electricity, rates etc and cheaper overheads ( by far ) in a country where the average public sector wage is not 966 per week.

I suggest that the pay rates of private sector workers are far more significant. I doubt if Dell had anything other than possibly a passing interest in public sector pay rates.

KerranJast

Why do the Unions keep bleating on about public services being cut? They seem to be oblivious to the fact that cutting PS wages does not mean less hours of work for them. They'll have the same workload just for less pay.

If Ireland were compared to a business and the business is losing money hand over fist, the owner doesn't go charging their customers even more money for services (taxes) or start reducing the quality of their service. They work with the staff to get efficient work practices and reduce the wage bill to make up the shortfall.

green man

rob I
Agreed no matter what happenes either a cut in numbers or reduction in wages will probably in the short term decrease the quality of work done but it is a fact that has to happen if we are to cut spending.
again its not the worker earning 40,000 or 50,000 grand i am talkin about its the higher paid staff who probably didnt deserve such high saleries in the first place.
Again a reality check is what is needed. No one needs to earn a six figure sum or more to survive, but theres no doubt that some people who earn vast amounts have no regard for the less paid and believe because they have they have a big pay check it entitles them to a bigger say.

Rob_l

jimmmy wrote: »

Cheaper labour, well educated productive labour force, cheaper electricity, rates etc and cheaper overheads ( by far ) in a country where the average public sector wage is not 966 per week.

So effectively your saying other countries are cheaper than ireland?

Rob_l

KerranJast wrote: »

Why do the Unions keep bleating on about public services being cut? They seem to be oblivious to the fact that cutting PS wages does not mean less hours of work for them. They'll have the same workload just for less pay.

If Ireland were compared to a business and the business is losing money hand over fist, the owner doesn't go charging their customers even more money for services (taxes) or start reducing the quality of their service. They work with the staff to get efficient work practices and reduce the wage bill to make up the shortfall.

Most likely they would first cut staff numbers!
Rationalise.
Thats what Im proposing

Tipp Man

Rob_l wrote: »

I am not saying we cant, but cutting wages is not the answer the government has to admit that they have to cut the numbers employed not wages.

But either cutting wages or numbers will also cut the services and the quality of services available in the short and that has to be accepted

Both wages and number need to be cut signifiicantly. As the other poster says there is absolutley no reason in the world that we cannot survive pretty damn well as a country with 2005 expenditure levels.

The size of the public sector is simply unsustainable, coupled with a huge average wage means that both have to be cut

Alcatel

Tipp Man wrote: »

Both wages and number need to be cut signifiicantly. As the other poster says there is absolutley no reason in the world that we cannot survive pretty damn well as a country with 2005 expenditure levels.

The size of the public sector is simply unsustainable, coupled with a huge average wage means that both have to be cut

Look, it's a really simple equation:

We earn circa 33bn euro this year, likely less.

We're spending circa 57bn euro this year.

We're borrowing circa 24bn euro this year... Just this year!

Try running your household that way.

ceret

KerranJast wrote: »

Why do the Unions keep bleating on about public services being cut?

Because that's an easier political case to make. We've seen it already with IMPACT throwing up billboards of a sad baby girl. Why would you want to hurt the sad little girl?

ceret

Tipp Man wrote: »

cannot survive pretty damn well as a country with 2005 expenditure levels.

2005 levels would be awesome.

In 2005 the public pay and pensions bill was €15billion. In 2009 it's estimated to be almost €20billion. (source).

The government wants to reduce it by €1.3billion (source), so in reality we're just bring it back to 2007 levels (when it was about €18.1billion)

Tipp Man

ceret wrote: »

2005 levels would be awesome.

In 2005 the public pay and pensions bill was €15billion. In 2009 it's estimated to be almost €20billion. (source).

The government wants to reduce it by €1.3billion (source), so in reality we're just bring it back to 2007 levels (when it was about €18.1billion)

Social Welfare is another that needs to be tackled, if Leno can get the required savings from both PS cuts and Welfare cuts then he will be doing ok, has he the balls though

seangal

well ye can all rant on about public sector workers doing nothing and being over paid but wait till the 24th of november when the public sector strike and then we will see how much we do need them
then ye all will be on this giving out about the strike and how ye had to take a day of work (as private sector workers dont take sick days) to mind the kids , or ye did not get the dole paid out, or your hospital appointment was cancled or the rubbish was not picked up
all ye do here is moan and moan a bit like the media and yea belive anything yea are told and most of ye have all the facts wrong
Fact is the public sector are paid 21 billion a year they dont bank it they spend it in ireland hence why most of ye have jobs in the private sector

ParkRunner

seangal wrote: »

well ye can all rant on about public sector workers doing nothing and being over paid but wait till the 24th of november when the public sector strike and then we will see how much we do need them
then ye all will be on this giving out about the strike and how ye had to take a day of work (as private sector workers dont take sick days) to mind the kids , or ye did not get the dole paid out, or your hospital appointment was cancled or the rubbish was not picked up
all ye do here is moan and moan a bit like the media and yea belive anything yea are told and most of ye have all the facts wrong
Fact is the public sector are paid 21 billion a year they dont bank it they spend it in ireland hence why most of ye have jobs in the private sector

I can see where the last sentence of that post is going to go, but it would be interesting to see if the strike does happen, will Social Welfare and Revenue go out as well, as the country would effectively grind to a halt!

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Revenue go out as well

theres always a silver lining

seangal wrote: »

well ye can all rant on about public sector workers doing nothing and being over paid but wait till the 24th of november when the public sector strike and then we will see how much we do need them
then ye all will be on this giving out about the strike and how ye had to take a day of work (as private sector workers dont take sick days) to mind the kids , or ye did not get the dole paid out, or your hospital appointment was cancled or the rubbish was not picked up
all ye do here is moan and moan a bit like the media and yea belive anything yea are told and most of ye have all the facts wrong
Fact is the public sector are paid 21 billion a year they dont bank it they spend it in ireland hence why most of ye have jobs in the private sector

is it me or do these public sector union people beginning to talk like terrorists holding a gun to everyones head's :eek:

seriously theres no support for your striking, strike away yeer only piss people off

/

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

theres always a silver lining

is it me or do these public sector union people beginning to talk like terrorists holding a gun to everyones head's :eek:


/

It's just negotiation tatics. They're hardly going to come out and say we are prepared to bend over backwards Cowen & Lenihan, do your worst. The last thing anyone wants to do is strike but power to the people. I dont think it's a question of if public sector pay will be cut, it's a question of how much has to be cut from where. And then we can look forward to more fun next year.