15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000

irish_bob

KerranJast wrote: »

Why do the Unions keep bleating on about public services being cut? They seem to be oblivious to the fact that cutting PS wages does not mean less hours of work for them. They'll have the same workload just for less pay.

If Ireland were compared to a business and the business is losing money hand over fist, the owner doesn't go charging their customers even more money for services (taxes) or start reducing the quality of their service. They work with the staff to get efficient work practices and reduce the wage bill to make up the shortfall.

unions are masters of propoganda , you are of course correct in saying that cuts in services are are not the same thing as cuts in pay to public sector workers but seeing that unions main priority is to prevent wage cuts , they will engage in weasel words and straw man arguements till the cows come home

invincibleirish

irish_bob wrote: »

unions are masters of propoganda(sic)

That they are:rolleyes:

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

unions are masters of propoganda

And who owns the Irish Independent? Answers to the nearest full oligarch will be sufficient.

Plus 10

seangal wrote: »

well ye can all rant on about public sector workers doing nothing and being over paid but wait till the 24th of november when the public sector strike and then we will see how much we do need them
then ye all will be on this giving out about the strike and how ye had to take a day of work (as private sector workers dont take sick days) to mind the kids , or ye did not get the dole paid out, or your hospital appointment was cancled or the rubbish was not picked up
all ye do here is moan and moan a bit like the media and yea belive anything yea are told and most of ye have all the facts wrong
Fact is the public sector are paid 21 billion a year they dont bank it they spend it in ireland hence why most of ye have jobs in the private sector

I don't think there is any question that the country needs a public sector!

Two basic questions need answering
1. Should those in a guaranteed pensionable job be paid less - talk of benchmarking (negative) - reality the county is in trouble - a cut is on the way the only question is how much. Think somewhere between 3-5% is where it will end up.

2. Reduce numbers - can't make redundancies - so (a) curtail recruitment (already done) (b) offer early retirement (already done). Unfortunate circumstance of the public sector is that bright well qualified graduates will be unable to get jobs whilst less productive staff will continue on.

irish_bob

Plus 10 wrote: »

I don't think there is any question that the country needs a public sector!

Two basic questions need answering
1. Should those in a guaranteed pensionable job be paid less - talk of benchmarking (negative) - reality the county is in trouble - a cut is on the way the only question is how much. Think somewhere between 3-5% is where it will end up.

2. Reduce numbers - can't make redundancies - so (a) curtail recruitment (already done) (b) offer early retirement (already done). Unfortunate circumstance of the public sector is that bright well qualified graduates will be unable to get jobs whilst less productive staff will continue on.

ireland is the excetion rather than the rule when it comes to public servants being paid more than those in the private sector , in most countries , those in the ps earn less

the reform option of of course nonsesne , so too is improoved efficency , reducing staff numbers is a key form of improoving efficency and besides , increased productivity is not going to reduce the wage bill which is the number one priority right now , unions are dodging the elephant in the room , the question is whether our weak goverment will call them on it

MrMicra

irish_bob wrote: »

ireland is the excetion rather than the rule when it comes to public servants being paid more than those in the private sector , in most countries , those in the ps earn less

I am strongly in favour of public sector reform (as a continuous process of improvement within the public sector) and I also believe that the public sector pay bill is unsustainable at present levels.

However I clearly remember a time when lower middle class people were desperate to get into the civil service (as clerks) because it was a well paid and secure job.

I would be grateful if someone could identify a country where the average public sector worker earns less than the average private sector worker.

Our public sector wages should be lowered I certainly don't deny that (I advocate it) however it is not true that in most countries public sector workers earn less than their private sector counterparts.

seangal

Plus 10 wrote: »

I don't think there is any question that the country needs a public sector!

Two basic questions need answering
1. Should those in a guaranteed pensionable job be paid less - talk of benchmarking (negative) - reality the county is in trouble - a cut is on the way the only question is how much. Think somewhere between 3-5% is where it will end up.

2. Reduce numbers - can't make redundancies - so (a) curtail recruitment (already done) (b) offer early retirement (already done). Unfortunate circumstance of the public sector is that bright well qualified graduates will be unable to get jobs whilst less productive staff will continue on.

any public sector worker that joined after 1995 can be made redundant
the number are reducing as there is allready over 3000 less than last year
Anybody who leave are not being replaced but this is going to lead to massive reduction in services

Tipp Man

seangal wrote: »

any public sector worker that joined after 1995 can be made redundant
the number are reducing as there is allready over 3000 less than last year
Anybody who leave are not being replaced but this is going to lead to massive reduction in services

And how many exactly since 95 HAVE been made redunant, it's easy to say that they can but does it ever, ever happen in practice, simple answer is no. How else can my local county council still have exactly the same number of people involved in planning as they did 3 years ago?? What would a private sector company do if they were the planning department?? Yep thats right redundancy and its happened to hundreds of thousands of private workers in the last year to 18 months.

Exactly how many has the government made redundant in the last 18 months?? Now how many should they make redundant?? Probably 50k people

MaceFace

seangal wrote: »

any public sector worker that joined after 1995 can be made redundant
the number are reducing as there is allready over 3000 less than last year
Anybody who leave are not being replaced but this is going to lead to massive reduction in services

The only people I know of who were working in the PS and are not any more are those on contracts which were not renewed or those that voluntarily left. This is a tiny number in comparision to those who have in all but name permanent jobs.

A reduction in numbers does not mean lesser services. There are huge numbers involved in Administration and there is huge scope for reforming this area.

The unfortunate thing is that when Unions get involved, people will not change the way they work until they get something in return.

ceret

seangal wrote: »

any public sector worker that joined after 1995 can be made redundant

Wait you mean people who joined before 1995 were unfireable? As in legally, writen down, "You cannot be sacked"? (As opposed to a wink and a nudge?) Feck me. Got a link?

Alcatel

ceret wrote: »

Wait you mean people who joined before 1995 were unfireable? As in legally, writen down, "You cannot be sacked"? (As opposed to a wink and a nudge?) Feck me. Got a link?

It's true. Easiest way to see it, look in the army at the 50something 3* privates walking around. In the rest of the civil service they don't wear a uniform with a rank tab to mark them out, but pre-95 civil service makes 2009 public sector look positively modern.

Still, lads, 57bn spending versus 33bn income. We can't afford it. Cut the quangos in half, for a good start.

irish_bob

MrMicra wrote: »

I am strongly in favour of public sector reform (as a continuous process of improvement within the public sector) and I also believe that the public sector pay bill is unsustainable at present levels.

However I clearly remember a time when lower middle class people were desperate to get into the civil service (as clerks) because it was a well paid and secure job.

I would be grateful if someone could identify a country where the average public sector worker earns less than the average private sector worker.

Our public sector wages should be lowered I certainly don't deny that (I advocate it) however it is not true that in most countries public sector workers earn less than their private sector counterparts.

you only have to look a couple of hundred miles east , public servants in the uk earn less on average than in the private sector

MrMicra

Unfortunately there is no emoticon of a quizzical Roger Moore style cocked eyebrow irish_bob otherwise I would use it.

I certainly believe you and I don't want to put obstacles in your way or demand impossible proof of your reasonable assertion. I do have to ask if you're sure and I would love to see a paper or something that backs you up.

I am not being sarcastic I would genuinely love to see such a paper. Like you I believe that public sector wages must fall and fall markedly.

medimad

MrMicra wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no emoticon of a quizzical Roger Moore style cocked eyebrow irish_bob otherwise I would use it.

I certainly believe you and I don't want to put obstacles in your way or demand impossible proof of your reasonable assertion. I do have to ask if you're sure and I would love to see a paper or something that backs you up.

I am not being sarcastic I would genuinely love to see such a paper. Like you I believe that public sector wages must fall and fall markedly.

I'm one of those mean and nasty public servent that your talking about. I've had no schooling and I sleep all day at work.... Nope wait for it I'm a paramedic. I have 8 years in the service. I get 1200 a fortnight. thats about 100 ponds sterling more that a 3rd year QAT that dosent have the same skill level that we do. I've lot my front teath, I've had a my rips cracked, I've deliverd 9 babies and my wife who is an A&E nurse lost ours after she was kicked in the abdo by a scum bage that belive it or not worked in the privet sector. we have lost more than 9000 since the pension levy and the health levy was landed in us. given the fact that we only earn slightly more than 34000 a year and the euro and pond are nearly the same and that the cost of liveing is still sky high in ireland what do you want us to do. I know lets shut up and take it. I was listening to the radio the other day and there was an other idiot from the privet sector going on about how each person in Ireland has there own nurse to look after them while there in hospital. he then went on to say that the public sector workrs where out of touch. O god. Who won the scotts medal this wk for being shot while trying to spot scum. Who spent newyears night in a car wreck with a wee girl while she rested her head on her dead friends leg and didnt know that her leg and arm was traped under that car. now she's walking around with only a limp. goahead check it out. how lost his child due to a scum bag kicking his wife in the abdo. dont you dare use the term public sector again and pay cuts. Fall markedly How dare you.

seangal

jimmmy wrote: »

As far as I know ( but I am open to correction ) the headline is based on statistics " 15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000 " is three years old. Given public sector pay has risen since 2006, it must surely be greater now ?

These 15,000 plus people on completion of service will receive a tax free cheque of 150,000 euro from the taxpayer, and a government pension of at least 50,000 euro. Can the government afford to be giving out these big pensions....and do the people really need it ? Methinks not.
Most if not all would have thier mortgage paid off, kids educated etc.
It would be interesting to find out how many people are on government pensions of € 50,000 plus ? Given people are living longer nowadays -and some public servants ( eg Gardai ) are retiring on full pension in their early fifties - 50,000 or 80,000 or 100,000 people ?

jimmy i am paying almost €200 euro a week in to my pension and being honest if i could avoid paying it and give up my pension i would
I have young kids now so i need money now not when i am 66 and i would be quite happy on the state old age pension when i am 66
i might not even get to my pension age and if i do i dont know how long i will live for
thank god i live for the moment and not like the rest on this who are moaning on and on

seangal

jimmmy wrote: »

Cheaper labour, well educated productive labour force, cheaper electricity, rates etc and cheaper overheads ( by far ) in a country where the average public sector wage is not 966 per week.

yes jimmmy and who caused the wage inflation here?????????
private sector employers with there greed greed greed
public sector wages did not get where they are because of the great benchmarking they got there because of wage agreement linked to inflation caused my greed in the private sector and they are still at it hence why 500k people go across the border
not alone that ther are cutting wages and letting staff go to make more profit
one example is a bit employeer in lexslip who made record profit but have cut there staff wages by 5%
there is no question but builder and banks and shops all who are private sector got us in to this mess buy paying paddy the plaster thosands of euro a week and inflated house prices which cause wage inflation
there is no question about it but the private sector employers through there greed have destroyed this country.
If we had done what europe wanted and stuck to a 2% inflation out public sector pay bill woulf be about 30% less
dell was right to pull out as i have had mates who were jumping from one company to another during 2000 and 2008 and going on about when they left one job and got another that they got €5k of a wage rise for doing it that is why manafacturing has left this county because off greed by private sector employees full stop

seangal

medimad wrote: »

I'm one of those mean and nasty public servent that your talking about. I've had no schooling and I sleep all day at work.... Nope wait for it I'm a paramedic. I have 8 years in the service. I get 1200 a fortnight. thats about 100 ponds sterling more that a 3rd year QAT that dosent have the same skill level that we do. I've lot my front teath, I've had a my rips cracked, I've deliverd 9 babies and my wife who is an A&E nurse lost ours after she was kicked in the abdo by a scum bage that belive it or not worked in the privet sector. we have lost more than 9000 since the pension levy and the health levy was landed in us. given the fact that we only earn slightly more than 34000 a year and the euro and pond are nearly the same and that the cost of liveing is still sky high in ireland what do you want us to do. I know lets shut up and take it. I was listening to the radio the other day and there was an other idiot from the privet sector going on about how each person in Ireland has there own nurse to look after them while there in hospital. he then went on to say that the public sector workrs where out of touch. O god. Who won the scotts medal this wk for being shot while trying to spot scum. Who spent newyears night in a car wreck with a wee girl while she rested her head on her dead friends leg and didnt know that her leg and arm was traped under that car. now she's walking around with only a limp. goahead check it out. how lost his child due to a scum bag kicking his wife in the abdo. dont you dare use the term public sector again and pay cuts. Fall markedly How dare you.

well said but this is the responce you will get from the private sector
" well we pay tax that pays you wage"

NewDubliner

seangal wrote: »

well said but this is the responce you will get from the private sector " well we pay tax that pays you wage"

And who pays the private sector's wages - we all do.

jimmmy

seangal wrote: »

jimmy i am paying almost €200 euro a week in to my pension

You must be getting a fortune from the government if you are able to be putting "almost €200 euro a week in to my pension". Manys a person would love to be in your shoes.

seangal wrote: »

thank god i live for the moment and not like the rest on this who are moaning on and on

If others were paid as much as you, had your job security, hours worked, sickies ( average for your sector ) and pension, they would live for the moment too.

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

And who pays the private sector's wages - we all do.

The private sector collect vat, income tax ,stamp duty, cgt, cat, excise duty and all the other taxes and pay it to the government. Thats the governments income. ( along with 25 billion of borrowing ).

The wages the government pay is part of government expenditure....yes to its employees it witholds some of the money as tax, but this money comes from others in the first place.

Count Dooku

NewDubliner wrote: »

And who pays the private sector's wages - we all do.

Do you think that private sector will collapse if PS workers will stop use private sector?
What will happen with public sector if private sector will stop pay taxes?

Alcatel

The issue of frontline emergency services seems to cloud the whole issue of PS pay and general services delivered - personally, I agree that frontline workers should get damn good pay for what they do, because one day I might be trapped under that car and private or public sector worker, black or white, tall or short, I'll be needing their help.

But the issue in this debate is that the whole debate seems to be like we're going to tax nurses and ambulance drivers and nobody else.

I'll give you another example: I know of a PS organisation into which there is in one department a senior manager, 75k a year, a senior 'exec', 55k a year, an exec, 35k a year, and two admins, 25k a year. This department is in a comparably sized 'business' to one I also have knowledge of, in which the same function is carried out by one senior admin, 30k a year, and two part-timers, 15k a year. The senior manager in the PS body personally tells me that it's wasteful, they wouldn't get the same money in the private sector for sure, and she doesn't really think that they're that efficient as an organisation - and she sees a lot of the financial goings on.

So frankly, let's cut the BS about the frontline services. It clouds the issue. There's a whole other public sector out there that could be trimmed not only in pay, but in actual numbers, efficiencies, and so on.

The public sector in any country will always be a bit of an overweight organisation compared to the private sector, but in Ireland it's out of epic proportions.

In terms of pay, let's ignore frontline for a moment and look at the rest (majority) of the PS and ask ourselves, are these people getting too much?

2/3, according to IMPACT, of the PS earns more than €40,000 a year. I'm thinking more of them than the clerical workers when I demand pay cuts.

€57 billion spending. €33 billion income. €24 billion borrowing. Just to keep the lights on. Please remember that when framing this discussion in your mind. We are living a way beyond our means, is the old expression.

Count Dooku

Alcatel wrote: »

2/3, according to IMPACT, of the PS earns more than €40,000 a year. I'm thinking more of them than the clerical workers when I demand pay cuts.

Not only clerical workers, also managers and senior staff
There only few critical for state departments – gardai, courts, revenue, schools, hospitals
Leave them untouched and make cuts in all other places to make average in remaining departments equal to average in private sector and link it forever.

NewDubliner

Count Dooku wrote: »

There only few critical for state departments – gardai, courts, revenue, schools, hospitals

Yep, we don't need roads, public transport, electricity & gas distribution. We don't need to regulate banking, insurance, telecoms or air transport. Clean water - it falls from the skies. Sewage & waste - just dump it in the back yard. Let's leave the farmers to a free choice in illegal hormones.:rolleyes:

Count Dooku wrote: »

Leave them untouched and make cuts in all other places to make average in remaining departments equal to average in private sector and link it forever.

'forever' is a very long time.

Count Dooku

NewDubliner wrote: »

We don't need to regulate banking,

With existing staff in Financial Regulator, definitely not.
They tried to regulate it once and all of us will have to pay for their mistakes

Count Dooku

NewDubliner wrote: »

Yep, we don't need roads, public transport, electricity & gas distribution.

We don’t need new roads, we have enough for next ten years. We need only to maintain them – private sector will do fine
We don’t need planning offices – they were not working properly before, what is reason to keep them now. Ireland has enough property supply for next 10 years
Some parts of gas and electricity supply (not all of them) can be sold and pay for maintenance of remaining parts of network for another 10 years.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Sewage & waste - just dump it in the back yard.

Please explain me, why SDCC is charging me 8 euro per bin and few times I had to call them and remind about existence of our estate
Citybin is charging 6 euro per bin and I never had problem with them
Just good example how overpaid and inefficient public sector is

jimmmy

How come other countries have better public services at a lower cost ?

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

How come other countries have better public services at a lower cost ?

For example?

Count Dooku

NewDubliner wrote: »

For example?

Finland?

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

For example?

FAS. Even during the height of the tiger years, when we had virtually full employment, it had a budget of a billion. Was it value for money ? Are we getting value for money by having our average public sector wage the highest in the known world ? And what do we get in return. You wrote " Clean water - it falls from the skies ". Some of the people I know have to have wells / pay for their own water. The government does not provide it. You wrote " we don't need roads, public transport ". We pay road tax and have had a lot of EC handouits for our roads. The money may go further if the salaries + pensions were not so high;)