Home Automation and Structured Wiring (help required!)

liamolaighin

I will be building a two storey 3000 sq/ft house in the next few months and I'd like to future proof my house. As impressed as I am by all of the automated control systems out there and by the companies who fit new builds with automated systems and structured wiring they are just way too expensive. Ideally I'd like to design a system that would suit my needs, install the wiring myself and go from there.

I know that the wiring is not that expensive i.e Cat 5 , co-ax, speaker cable etc and I'll run this generously around the house and back to the utility where the central hub will be located (hopefully!). What I really need is someone to advise me as to what to run where taking future technology into consideration. i.e can you overkill the Cat 5 & co-ax etc to tv points.

So if say I want to automate lighting downstairs does all my lighting have to be routed back through hub in utility and onto fusebox. Maybe with a view to automating it later on. Is there particular wire required in this scenario or more than the standard run if i want dimmer control in future...

Should I run some kind of cable to windows in living areas in case i ever wanted to automate blinds? Or even every window in house. I know theres systems which will open/close everything at touch of a button but at present they are too expensive to look at. They are not even necessary but still maybe I'll look differently at it if im ever immobile etc... Again must this all be run back to/through the hub even if i'm not automating right now?

For audio/video and data distribution again how much cable is absolutely required. i.e 2 Cat 5 or 3 or 4 or similarly with co-ax at each t.v point. Should I be looking at fibre optic anywhere or everywhere?? I know all this will come back through hub it's just a question of what do i need in terms of cable to future proof tv points, internet points, phone points....etc

What needs to be run around the house if for I.R control of devices if they are all in central location. I'd imagine i'd like in future to have a network hard drive sitting on the network with music and movies stored theron. So the skybox maybe, DVD player etc might be put into hub for central control. Or does it make more sence to have a central entertainment centre at your main TV and run the feed from that TV back to a splitter in the hub..? Maybe.

Anyway id love to install the system myself, and terminate everything myself especially at the build stage. I can always get a techie in after to put in a control 4/creston system. I'd just like to have the house prepped and have basic functionality of broadband tv and multi zone audio from beginning. So does anyone reckon I should just buy the cable and materials required and go for it or is it too much of a complex task. Theres loads of online dealers etc and i'd be ok at the old DIY! Anyone know any electricians in Cork area who would be seriously in the know about this stuff??? Or even someone who could sit down with me and my plans and design the structured wiring system?

mazthespark

a tip for future automation everything back to a central location. that way no matter what you want to do its covered. for lighting the best thing to do is wire all your lighting circuits back to your fuseboard. but also feed them in the usual way by looping switches together and a switch wire up to the circuits (leave cable back to board from first light disconnected). also run a cat 5 to every light switch back to your hub. 2 if needed. depending on how much is controlled from there. aim to put maybe 2 cat 5/ 2 coax minimum behind each tv. and more at main tv points 4/6 of each. speakers all depend on what you want them to do and how you lay them out. id have a fair idea of what to put in depending on what you want, im a sparkie and have an interest in home automation but like you no interest in paying millions to do it. hope this helps pm me if u need any more info

liamolaighin

I am planning exactly that kind of system now. Anyone know of a qualified electrician in the West Cork or Cork city area who does structured wiring too. Please pm me a name and contact details if you do.

Steve

+1 to what mazthespark said.
Run everything back to a terminal box, lights, switches, sockets, the lot. You can then modify switching / add relays or contactors / install intelligent controllers or whatever you want and more importantly modify the setup at time without having to open ceilings or walls.
I'd also run wires for a number of alternate lighting schemes even if you're not going to use them yet, at this point in a build installing cable is cheap and you'll thank yourself when you want to change something that didn't turn out as expected.
Ditto for speaker and cat5 (or cat6 if you want to be more future proof) but in saying that, wireless technology can alleviate the need for a lot of the IT wiring.
Another one to consider is wiring for heating zones (motor valves) and individual room thermostats can save a lot of cash by shutting down unused areas in the house. Don't forget an outside stat for frost protection.

I reckon It'll get to a point in about 5 years where this type of wiring becomes redundant as the emergence of wireless 'neural net' switches and actuators become affordable at a domestic level.

davelerave

frost-stat inside( coldest part of house or risk areas )where it can respond to rise in temperature.
+1 to everything else,home runs for flexibility and separate from mains cabling runs

Cosworth

I am a newly qualified electrician myself and am about to start building a house in the next month.
I too have looked into home automation and it is a minefield with limitless and some very expensive options.
What i have come up with so far for myself is not so much home automation but a list of extras that will make the house that bit easier/nicer to live in,

DATA POINTS
Min 2 in every room back to central location
Hope to have a mainserver/harddrive so movies/pictures/sound can be stored here and watched from around the house.
Wireless router points upstairs and downstairs.

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

SECURITY
CAT5E from security panel to main board,em lighting contact in board.
CAT5E from central location to security panel,for texting/digidialer.
Zone for garage
Zone for outside infra red beam etc
CAT5E and coaxial to several CCTV points back to central location
500 gig hard drive
Intercom and access control on main gate and doors
Keypads and panic buttons at all entry/exit doors


LIGHTING
CAT5E from each switch to central location for future dimming
Absence detectors in bathrooms
4 outsite lighting circuits controlled by HAND/OFF/AUTO switch and photocell
18+ Gang switch bank in central location to switch every room in the house
Emergency feed to each room for emergency lighting in case of power failure
Various feature LED lighting around house

SOUND
Speaker cable from every room back to central location.
Speaker cables to garden.

HEATING
Min 3 channel to seperatley heat downstairs rads,upstairs rads or just water.
Individual room stats and outside frost stat
Boiler controlled by GSM text to activate
Underfloor electric heating and towel rails in all bathrooms

POWER
Mains supply to garage,garage to have sub board
Changeover switch for generator
Supply for garden sockets etc
Supply to the all velux window motors

The central location will house the patch panel,main board,security panel and harddrive/server etc

Any more suggestions from anyone would be appreciated as i have only started looking into this and really want to futre proof the house.

Gary

nooneuno

Hey Cosworth! Are you going to draw up the plans yourself for the wiring ?

rodred

i have received a price for a full structured cabling system
supplied and fitted.
tv/data/phone points in each room of the house, speaker cables to every
room, 2no. home cinema's wired, cctv cables, tv distribution, all wired back to central location,
4.5k
is this a good price can anyone tell me??
1450sqft house.
anyone give me some idea of what sort of price i should be looking
to pay for this sort of system.
thanks a million

nooneuno

Save yourself 4.5k and do the wiring yourself. It's not too hard!

soldsold

Interesting thread.

Do any of you know of a useful, up to date website with wiring details (for novices) of the stuff mentioned above - ie fairly comprehensive home automation but using diy and not needing an electronics degree to get it all to work?

I am roofing an extension that includes a dining room, 2 living rooms, kitchen, hall, cinema room, bathroom and bedroom and am planning on diy wiring a stable, useful automation system that is future proof, fairly easy to follow for later upgrades etc.

My plan is for the cinema room to have electric blinds on the velux windows, pir's in the hall for late night bathroom use, basic external security including recording all movement around the house, sonos wireless music in most rooms, individual room thermostats with sms control and a basic automated lighting system.

i dont mind spending money on the cables but dont want to throw money at expensive systems, I'm looking for the sweetspot of cost vs usefulness and robustness of the system.

Thanks!

Steve

congo_90

Run wires for alarms and smoke alarms especially in risk areas like the utility room where your keeping all that gear/ washing machine etc.
Perhaps set up a dedicated line for dialers to work for alarms too.

Buford T Justice

Cosworth wrote: »

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway) cables outside, as you may well run to Sky HD or Sky+ any time in the future. They require two cables. Also, in case one deteriorates over time. In fact, i'd run three to be on the safe side. It'll be cheaper in the long run.


In terms of data cables, anywhere you have a lighting point (Light Switch) or a data point (obviously) or a TV, Video DVD - Anything, I would run at least one Cat 5E Cable. This will cover you for anything you want in the future. Eg, if you want to change your lightswitches to Crestron display panels etc..... they will do it. Its also worth considering running the cabling to a point in the ceiling in case you decide to go with a projector in the future, will save a lot of hassle.

I've done this work on an industrial scale (lecture theaters, Confrence facilities fully automated) and it is a benefit to run extra cable, cos there is always one you forget. Cat 5 can also be used to carry IR signals to the TV, you will just need to stick an emitter on the TV. However, I don't like the look of these little things sticking out the front of the Telly. If you are going with Crestron or AMX automation, then I would seriously consider RS232 control for the TV. Most modern Flatscreens and projectors can be controlled by this.

liamolaighin

Anyone know if xantect have a showroom in ireland. I like the look of their AV distribution moduole and control features

http://www.xantech.com/files/app_diagrams/11_MRC88_Dia_1.pdf

gmoyne

Have you looked at avnex.co.uk ?

gmoyne

Cosworth wrote: »

I am a newly qualified electrician myself and am about to start building a house in the next month.
I too have looked into home automation and it is a minefield with limitless and some very expensive options.
What i have come up with so far for myself is not so much home automation but a list of extras that will make the house that bit easier/nicer to live in,

DATA POINTS
Min 2 in every room back to central location
Hope to have a mainserver/harddrive so movies/pictures/sound can be stored here and watched from around the house.
Wireless router points upstairs and downstairs.

TV POINTS
2 coaxials and 2 CAT5E to each TV point back to central location
1 coaxial back to outside NTL point
FM cable to aerial for radio signal
Speaker cables to each TV point for surround sound in that room
Scart leads/VGA leads/HDMI cables in walls for mounting of LCD TVs and projectors

SECURITY
CAT5E from security panel to main board,em lighting contact in board.
CAT5E from central location to security panel,for texting/digidialer.
Zone for garage
Zone for outside infra red beam etc
CAT5E and coaxial to several CCTV points back to central location
500 gig hard drive
Intercom and access control on main gate and doors
Keypads and panic buttons at all entry/exit doors


LIGHTING
CAT5E from each switch to central location for future dimming
Absence detectors in bathrooms
4 outsite lighting circuits controlled by HAND/OFF/AUTO switch and photocell
18+ Gang switch bank in central location to switch every room in the house
Emergency feed to each room for emergency lighting in case of power failure
Various feature LED lighting around house

SOUND
Speaker cable from every room back to central location.
Speaker cables to garden.

HEATING
Min 3 channel to seperatley heat downstairs rads,upstairs rads or just water.
Individual room stats and outside frost stat
Boiler controlled by GSM text to activate
Underfloor electric heating and towel rails in all bathrooms

POWER
Mains supply to garage,garage to have sub board
Changeover switch for generator
Supply for garden sockets etc
Supply to the all velux window motors

The central location will house the patch panel,main board,security panel and harddrive/server etc

Any more suggestions from anyone would be appreciated as i have only started looking into this and really want to futre proof the house.

Gary

This area is somewhat of a field that I specialise in !
As you suggest and correctly so Automation can be a minefield, however there are many ways of making sure that everything works and that is making sure that cabling is sufficient to meet all future demands. Have you looked at www.knx.org and www.avnex.co.uk
You can always contact me if you wish I have no problem helping you, as information costs nothing ! Making sure you have a large enough consumer board is vital I generally use Merlin Gerin 900 x 600 they look big, but once you have populated a board with dimmers etc. you use the space up. I have often used two side by side !

Anyway, the main thing is to use lots of cable back to your source and run all lighting as radials from this point and also all switch wires back to the same point.

Oh yes about security check out texe.com they are based in UK and are the only company who individually test every piece of product made, also you can access panel via usb upload download. I use these panles, as one can utilise the outputs and timers on the panel for some automation functions. The panel can also be used as a fire control system !

Jnealon

All good advise here, you can never run too many cables. Be sure to use good quality cables, ct100 etc and if it too cheap more than likely there's a reason.
On the security side of it I would recommend you look at the Europlex Signet. It will do everything that the texecom kit can and a lot more.

gmoyne

Jnealon wrote: »

All good advise here, you can never run too many cables. Be sure to use good quality cables, ct100 etc and if it too cheap more than likely there's a reason.
On the security side of it I would recommend you look at the Europlex Signet. It will do everything that the texecom kit can and a lot more.

This respondent is truely correct and I would add that I am not a reseller of texecom products and Eurplex signet can do exactly what any texecom product or many many others can do, although, the more bit of any particular product I suppose relates to what you require as a user.

Secant in Canada and Elk in the US both produce products (as do many of the 350 companies belonging to KNX ) that will both control all HVac and Lighting and also Security. The Cardio panel by Secant will provide 16 zone HVac 16 Zone Intruder and presence detection and unlimited lighting control.

Again back to the original point that control of any system can be done by a zillion products it is down to what can be easily removed and replaced by anothe product in time as everything has a finite lifespan.

Also taking into account the users needs as technology changes which is faster than we can contemplate at times.

Tenshot

Loads of good advice on this thread.

A couple of additional points:

- Use different colours of CAT5 for things intended to be used for home automation (lighting, blind control, etc.) vs speaker control cables vs standard phone/data points (e.g. Blue / Green / Grey) -- makes it much easier to keep everything sorted when you're trying to get it all wired up, and also gives you a clue as to what's been affected if you accidentally damage a cable in a wall later on.

- For speakers, make sure you run all speaker cable back to a central point; I made the mistake of only running it through a wallbox, with CAT5 from there back to the central point, and it severely limited my options to the point where I am now retrofitting it the "proper" way.

- Would definitely go with CAT6 for the data/phone points; gives you more headroom for Gigabit Ethernet which is becoming increasingly common in the home. Wireless is fine, but you'll get more reliable, hassle free operation of things like video servers if they are wired directly to source instead of all competing for scarce 2.4 GHz airwaves. CAT5E is fine for control signals for lighting/heat/home automation.

tommyh1977

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway) cables outside, as you may well run to Sky HD or Sky+ any time in the future. They require two cables. Also, in case one deteriorates over time. In fact, i'd run three to be on the safe side. It'll be cheaper in the long run.


Firstly let me introduce my background in this area. 15 Years as Pro- AV Installation Engineer. Currently we use systems such as Elan & Vantage for Multiroom AV & Clipsal or Dynalite for Lighting Control. RG59 is absolutely useless for video distribution. Screening is far too sparse for RF interference rejection & shielding. Use a good quality Quad Screened Cable such as Van Damme or Liberty Cable. It is far more expensive but you are putting this into your house for a minimum of 15 - 20 years so you need to fully future proof. For example 15 years ago all co-ax points within a house were wired using that cheap brown co-ax cable with one run to the living room and maybe one to the bedroom & kitchen. As we all know now that is absolutely useless today. If you really want to save time on installation of cable Liberty have a multicore video cable out which has 2 Co-ax & 2 CAT5E Cables in one sleeve. Someone else suggested using scart leads and HDMi in walls, again Scart Cables are far too unreliable to go burying them in walls. Use CAT5e & adaptors when the time comes. CAT5E run into switch boxes for lighting control must have a Mains rating on it for entry to the consumer unit. Clipsal carry such a cable as do Dynalite.

We always advise people regardless of who is first fixing the house (themselves, Electricians or our company) to get a full test on all cables before the house is closed up. It pays in the long run if you do not intend to fit system for another few years.

Hope this helps, but without meaning to disrespect any Electricians or Self Builders on here, we have spent too many days trying to retro fit equipment to houses that were "wired correctly for future proofing" with homeowners standing next to us pulling their hair out. To put it into perspective you wouldn't chance wiring a 3 phase board as a handy homeowner, this is no different even if it is low voltage. One thing i forgot to mention is ensure a minimum 450mm gap between AV / Data Cables & Mains Cables as they run thru attics etc.

gmoyne

The difficult thing about any form of automation is insuring no matter what you fit it can be retrofitted with something else. It is also important to note that many automation systems do not utilise an open langauge. What I mean by this is that you are confined to products only manufactured by the supplier of the automation equipment. the only globaly open langauge format currently available for automation is EIB Bus (www.knx.org) and DALI (Digital Addressable Lighting Interface) the products manufactured by the many hundreds of companies that use KNX and DALI are all interchangeable and can be utilised and mixed to suit the system required by the corporate or home user. Check out www.busch-jaeger.de this one of ABB's sister companies who are involved in the home automation business.with several hundred of the worlds largest manufacturing comanies such as Sneider and Jung,Bosch and Miele to name but a few, go to www.knx.org for a fll list of membes.

Anyhow, my committment to the automation industry is to plan your cabling so that no matter what you decide to put in the cable in the wall will be 99% effective. Remember you can run all audio and video on CAT cable (Line signal). Cehck out Avnex.co.uk for a cost effective matrix to distribute all audio and video using only a cat 5 network of cable. The audio signal for the purpose of being amplified for speakers is then added by puttng the cat cable into an amp with a cat module built in or the signal put into the input of a surround sound system.

There is degregation of signal on CAT cable and it carries digital signal without any problems. You can also run HDMI on CAT but it requires the use of two cables. This technology is in its infancy so it is best not to go there just yet, but it is improving.

The new terminal at the airport in Dublin will utilise KNX and DALI as does the new bridge over the liffey running LED Lighting and also the new Terminal 1 in London. The advantage of using KNX and or DALI is that it integrates completely Lighting HVAC and Security and can be fully accessed on IP gateway. The freedom is in not being confined and knowing there is full security given the current economic situation.
No right or wrong just different !

liamolaighin

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

Cosworth

tommyh1977 wrote: »

Run at least two Co-Ax (I'd recommend RG59, and terminate them all with BNC connections or at least "F" connectors, they are good and solid, and you can put adaptors on them for standard RF, most switchers will use BNC anyway).

I have been told not to run RG59 as it is only any good for CCTV,the RG59 is physically smaller and wont fit connectors for the sky+ box.

As far as i was aware RG59 is one of the lowest grades of COAX cable out there??????

I am running CAT6 for all data/phone ,CAT5E for lighting control and CAT5E and a commscope coax for TV points.

rolion

There is a course run by FAS or by a private college:
http://www.chevrontraining.ie/buildingsystems/

liamolaighin wrote: »

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

gmoyne

liamolaighin wrote: »

Anyone know if there is any courses in ireland which teach you about the basics of planning and installing a home automation system? Pity i'm a bit old to go out on 'work experience' with anyone, but that would be the perfect way to pick it up!

The difficulty with home automation systems and the course run to install them is the equipment available in colleges and schools including FAS.

Home automation is as much about common sense and also using the equipment which is not controlled by a single manufacturer. Kinda like putting all your money into a dodgy bank (if there was such a thing) if the company goes so does your home automation. I will not accept that companies can not go down. I have learned that lesson.

Check out www.knx.org I know I did the KNX automation course in Dungannon College but it is now also available in Dublin.

Good luck

kippy

Great thread guys plenty information here.
Amn't currently building a house but may be doing so one day, will have to keep threads like this as I will be aiming for some level of automation.
Well done guys. As every proving why boards is so useful.

Red Alert

Just to say if you are planning on doing multi-room sound, a lot of the 'packaged' solutions are very expensive for what they do. You'd probably be much better off with either new or used professional equipment - mixers, preamps and multi-channel amplifiers are very easy to get hold of online.

tommyh1977

Cosworth wrote: »

I have been told not to run RG59 as it is only any good for CCTV,the RG59 is physically smaller and wont fit connectors for the sky+ box.

As far as i was aware RG59 is one of the lowest grades of COAX cable out there??????

I am running CAT6 for all data/phone ,CAT5E for lighting control and CAT5E and a commscope coax for TV points.

FYI i was not recommending RG59 , only copied & pasted the previous post that had recommended RG59. Just wanted to clear that up.:)

tommyh1977

Red Alert wrote: »

Just to say if you are planning on doing multi-room sound, a lot of the 'packaged' solutions are very expensive for what they do. You'd probably be much better off with either new or used professional equipment - mixers, preamps and multi-channel amplifiers are very easy to get hold of online.

If you are going down the road of buying Pro Audio equipment, just make sure it has IR or RS232 control capabilities. Otherwise you will not be able to control it from your in-room keypad or remote control, instead you will have to use analogue controllers in every room just for audio which defeats the whole purpose of an integrated system. Plus you will require a much bigger rack of equipment. Lets say you use an Elan System 8 unit. This has 8 zones of A/V from one rack unit 4U high. To get this from individual equipment you would need, an 8 way video matrix switcher, 4 No. 4 channel amplifiers to give you 8 stereo zones, 1 Pre-amp / mixer. So you are looking at approx 12 - 16 U of rack space plus when you add up the cost of all those boxes and compare them to the Elan system you are not saving a whole pile, and you havent even got keypads.

gmoyne

Avnex in the UK manufacture amps and an AV Matrix which as I think I have said before in this thread does not require cabling other than CAT and of course speaker cable from the amps to the speakers. You can of course control the amps seperately on the matrix allowing yyou to stream sound from any input including sound from broadband or TV out to speakers, good if you want to listen to internet radio.
You can use any feed equipment or surround amps you like as the avnex cables come with both Ir sender and receivers built into the cable. This cuts down cost hugely and thus this is why the Avnex matrix makes for the most cost effective way of controlling all AV equipment on the market. check out www.avnex.co.uk I have an ipod and Mac on my matrix as inputs this allows me to have internet and DVD etc ect. on all my TV screens. The iMac can be controlled using the ipod remote which costs about € 20.

liamolaighin

Ok I've done alot of research and met a few different local companies here in Cork re home automation and to be honest I'm only getting more sceptical. Each seem intent on belittling the others technologies and I feel the prices are totally unrealistic.

I would like to wire my house for audio/video. I'd love to run HighDef to all the bedrooms for the sake of it, but defo to 2 main rooms downstairs. Audio to be run to around 8 zones. Also interested in smart lighting and possibly blind control in a few rooms downstairs. Maybe temp control depending on heating system going into the house when building. Everything run back to a central hub. Is it possible to achieve something like this for less than 10,000.

liamolaighin

gmoyne wrote: »

Avnex in the UK manufacture amps and an AV Matrix which as I think I have said before in this thread does not require cabling other than CAT and of course speaker cable from the amps to the speakers. You can of course control the amps seperately on the matrix allowing yyou to stream sound from any input including sound from broadband or TV out to speakers, good if you want to listen to internet radio.
You can use any feed equipment or surround amps you like as the avnex cables come with both Ir sender and receivers built into the cable. This cuts down cost hugely and thus this is why the Avnex matrix makes for the most cost effective way of controlling all AV equipment on the market. check out www.avnex.co.uk I have an ipod and Mac on my matrix as inputs this allows me to have internet and DVD etc ect. on all my TV screens. The iMac can be controlled using the ipod remote which costs about € 20.

do you mind me asking if you designed your own system or if someone else did. Also who did the installation. How many zones have you set up, are tv outputs HD or standard. Just curious as not alot of people down my way have anything like this in place. Also would you be able to give a guide price as to what your system cost? Regards Liam