Home Automation and Structured Wiring (help required!)

tommyh1977

liamolaighin wrote: »

Ok I've done alot of research and met a few different local companies here in Cork re home automation and to be honest I'm only getting more sceptical. Each seem intent on belittling the others technologies and I feel the prices are totally unrealistic.

I would like to wire my house for audio/video. I'd love to run HighDef to all the bedrooms for the sake of it, but defo to 2 main rooms downstairs. Audio to be run to around 8 zones. Also interested in smart lighting and possibly blind control in a few rooms downstairs. Maybe temp control depending on heating system going into the house when building. Everything run back to a central hub. Is it possible to achieve something like this for less than 10,000.

Hi Liam,

Firstly there is no need to be sceptical regarding the different companies, Car dealers for example will run down each others brands, its the nature of the beast to prove your product the best. At the end of the day just like a car has one primary function so does a Home Automate system they all work around the same structured principal. Prices are probably not unrealistic, as you have a fairly elaborate design going on in there. Example: Crestron programmers charge something like 1000 euro a day just for programming, other manufacturers charge in the thousands for their programming software. Design consultants charge in the thousands just to lay out your system, but at the end of the day when you couple good design with good equipment & installation/ programming you get what you paid for. I feel it highly unlikely you will get your system components excluding fitting & programming for under 10K. Cabling alone should cost you in the region of 2K. Then again if you search around you will always find cheap as chips cable & equipment that will do a cheap as chips job. Not trying to be sarcastic you cant drive a Mercedes on a Perodua Budget. As a home installer myself, i wouldnt dream of sinking 10K into plumbing risking the system not working properly when the house is closed up, Home Automation is exactly the same there is a certain procedure & method to be used. There are too many cowboy outfits out there & self installers who assume it is just connecting a pile of wires together like hooking up a second sky box or something & i for one have spent way too long in comms rooms in new houses trying to rectify someone elses mess. Not trying to offend anyone here.

gmoyne

I do the designing myself. I try not to do installations as I can generally either get the client to do their own or an electrician whom they know and can trust to do what they want not what they think is handy.

I was working on a system today hey have 12 inputs out to 18 zones so it is quite big. They also have 12 zone on amps and two surround sound zones.

I am in some ways not keen to overly emphasise what product is better than any other, however I will say this much if it works and it's not too costly and it is simple to operate well that's what you need. garand having a Philips pronto and such like that will control everything that is if your happy to try and explain these controls to evryone that might come into your house wanting to turn the tv on or the music on.

Simple is good, its either on or off dimmed or not.
Sound and picture should be self explanatory with simple menus. You can send me a PM or email me and I can give you all the info you require.

gmoyne

Aha the dear old age of quotes "his is not as big and as fast or as grand as mine"

In 2005 and before the largest companies decided that it was time that they formed and organistation so that equipment woudl work on an automation system no matter who the manufacturer was just as long as the equipment conformed to recognised standards. This organisation is called KNX and the site www.knx.rg the organisation is now growing beyond expectations. the largest KNX supporter is ABB there are several hundred companies involved. The idea was also to have an open protocal (language) so that your automation sustem was not confined to again a manufacturer.

Remember this CAT 5 costs about € 80 for 300 meteres it will carry line audio video with out loss so don't be fooled into the belief that one needs special cable (you don't)
So it may be cheap as chips but NASA use CAT 5/6 screened and non the pentagon was wired in cat and it's cheap as chips !

No right answers just different !

tommyh1977

gmoyne wrote: »

Aha the dear old age of quotes "his is not as big and as fast or as grand as mine"

In 2005 and before the largest companies decided that it was time that they formed and organistation so that equipment woudl work on an automation system no matter who the manufacturer was just as long as the equipment conformed to recognised standards. This organisation is called KNX and the site www.knx.rg the organisation is now growing beyond expectations. the largest KNX supporter is ABB there are several hundred companies involved. The idea was also to have an open protocal (language) so that your automation sustem was not confined to again a manufacturer.

Remember this CAT 5 costs about € 80 for 300 meteres it will carry line audio video with out loss so don't be fooled into the belief that one needs special cable (you don't)
So it may be cheap as chips but NASA use CAT 5/6 screened and non the pentagon was wired in cat and it's cheap as chips !

No right answers just different !

I wasn't running down CAT5, as almost any electrical system today incorporates CAT5 cabling in some form or other, however you take a piece of cheap as chips chinese CAT5 & a piece of Krone CAT5 and get a full bandwidth sweep comparison done on them you will certainly find the chinese CAT5 which can cost as little as 20 euro per box will certainly not perform as good as the krone. I'm sure NASA dont import the cheap chinese stuff!!!! Furthermore CAT5 for Audio / Video transmission is only as good as the convertors / adaptors that are used to terminate either end. Again how can one compare ebay HDMi transcievers to Geffen transcievers. No right answers just different. I'm not on here to push any of my products on anyone, i just simply want to emphasise that even though there is no such thing as special cable there is such a thing as quality cable and when you are closing up your walls you want to be sure you will not need to replace that cable again for a good few years. Also it is critically important that seperation is kept between AV / Data Cables & Mains Cables to prevent cable talk, again just something i see day in - day out with Cat5 intertwined with PVC T&E Cable.

M cebee

hard to figure the dado trunking as mains and data can be bunched fairly close

tommyh1977

Could never figure the Dado Trunking either as it contradicts all wiring practices for Data, but to be fair there is a tiny seperation and at least they are parallel to each other, its when you see them literally wrapped around each other, then you have a problem waiting to flair its ugly head. One job i remember in particular was an office building where the electrician was careless with his cable management and he also used some cheap meteor CAT5. All worked fine once the high frequency lighting was off but when it was switched on just watch the whole IT system crash & burn.

zabzab

hi guys .I have read the posts with interest and would like to make some observations. I have been supplying and installing for nearly 20 years.
The mix here is between those who seem to have professional involvement and the amateur who would like to get involved. If I step on someone`s toes please excuse me as I will never intend to offend. Tommy 1977 and gmoyne are talking a lot of sense. To go back to the post regarding other people running down competing systems that is to me unprofessional. All systems
have strengths and weaknesses and a competent dealer should be able to explain this, unfortunatley a lot of people who come into this business learn the system they are selling and then act as if that is the only answer. I see a mention of Crestron this with AMX is the most expensive systems out there and supply is only through authorised dealers who are fully trained and up to date. In the USA AMX are now dropping dealers that don`t meet sales figures and withdrawing support from them . The figure given for crestron programmers daily rate is typical. A Crestron programmer has to do a number of courses and exams so will have to charge for his expertise.
Crestron require crestrex cable to be used therefore the idea that it is possible to prewire for any possible system is not as easy as it seems.
RG59 is not suitable for multiroom a/v .The least that should be used if running co-ax is a good RG6 note the underline as I have seen RG6 that
is not fit to be pulled as a result of an inexperienced or badly advised
person saying wire is wire . Anyone who has ever tried to feed video over meteor RG6 will know what I mean. There are I believe now up to three cat5 cables that can be classified as such ranging from barely to good. Remember cat5 was meant as a data cable and using it for other uses does work very well as long as the interfaces are of acceptable standard and the cable is good enough. KNX does work well but is difficult to integrate as a whole house inc A/V it seems to be making most ground as an industrial concept. Almost any lighting control system has proprietery
control cable or requirements. It is possible to prewire to allow for lighting control to be added later but will add considerably to the overall cost. An electrician bills for cable run ( per drop ) so double cabling for standard lighting and lighting control costs more. Dynalite for example have a specific cable used for control and will not guarantee the performance of the system if not used and also a dynalite supplier will not hook up as he cannot give a guarantee. If liam or anyone else wants to private message me I will give as much help as possible but i will not put this on a board as i
am very wary of providing information that is general and having it used as a specific answer. I have seen some erroneus information already on these boards which seems to be gathered from a number of sources. Remember electricity is very dangerous . When the house is closed up is no time to say I should have asked someone who knew because it was their profession what was corect but other than general information no professional is going to give free information. A bit like a mechanic saying that could be a ball joint but he is not going to tell you where to get one and how to fit it as if you get it wrong and there is an accident who gets the blame? I have seen and fixed jobs where the architect or other did a spec and then when the client wanted a system
to work the cable was either wrong or worse again in the wrong place. Are you going to plumb your own house as a DIY or roof it.
Remember multiroom A/V is not covered by a fas training course for an electrician, it is not covered by a computer or networking course, in America you can get courses for same. One last thing when fitting security there are very specific regulations ( i do not agree with them but they are a legal requirement ) so it really is not allowed to DIY.

zabzab

Hi I have seen wiring priced for a lot more than that but actually think that 4.5 k is
a bit excessive however to put an accurate price on a system i would need a spec, no of rooms etc pm me if you like

D.B.E

have to agree with the professionals the type of cable used makes all the difference....do alot of the first fixing for an installer in cork and he has said it as well that unless the cable and cabling is done to high standard the system is flawed

automatemyhouse

I built a house in Limerick a few years ago and wired for everything. Have some things up and running but need help configuring multi room av and programming a Clipsal lighting system. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Does anyone know someone who wants some work?

D.B.E

is it the c-bus lighting system you are looking at installing

automatemyhouse

The clipsal is installed and runs the lighting. I want to extend this to start adding logic, turn things on and off and enable remote access. In addition have a multi room audio installed but it needs to be programmed properly and distributed av enabled.

brathnach

Ok top-end (non user configurable) systems you could look at are Creston and AMX, both good in the field (and relatively very expensive) but very shutdown in the sense that the configuration software is proprietry.

If your looking for a logic controller and allowing some future expansion and dont want to be locked in to the supplier, you could do worse that looking into Charmed Quark Controller. (CQC) www.charmedquark.com

Trust me on one thing, I've done alot of work on the home automation side of things and pretty much know alot of the systems out there (and there are alot!!) Your're right to look for the advice first as otherwise you'll end up wasting money on stuff that you'll want to replace/upgrade within a few months because its not fit for purpose or it wont integrate into your setup.


I have to add to the above post in relation to Clipsal C-Bus. It is a very good lighting system. Can be expensive but I guess so can Rako, Lutron etc etc.

Good luck,

Rob

gmoyne

Life can be confusing when your faced with wires !

The reality is if you want to play golf dont use a hurl. Like all good trips the plan is the ultimate if success is the aim. "Fail to plan you plan to fail", whilst I have endeared myself to particular products or should I say open source controls then I will begin with suggesting that I have a bias. However, the one thing that I have learned over the years and that is the ultimate is there to be apart of the history of new product ranges.
I will begin a project with one view in mind the planning of the cables and absolutely no preference to the product going to be used. I use to think Microsoft and windows was the ultimate then I found out that they don’t use their own product on their servers and having spent hours banging my head against an error screen I eventually bought a Mac. Yes it is the best thing since sliced bread, but there are better systems to come.

So in planning an installation think of the better things to come. Not so long ago the only way to install a CCTV system was by using Coax and power cable now the future is IP and each camera can be recorded anywhere on a network or off site. The future is here the only problem is the integrators are fixed to a single supplier or operating system.

For AV I use a matrix system which allows for the control and transportation of AV signal over a CAT5/6/7 cable this allows for the line audio and video to be distributed cheaply and with controls everywhere. What you do with that audio video signal at the end of the cable is now open to you! Imagination is a great thing.

Cable for controls in all installations is probably the cheapest investment in the whole property. There is nothing by the way stopping someone installing their own intruder alarm it is just that some eggit in power somewhere decided that to protect some bods they would set up a quango and say we are protecting our citizens from rogue traders. Yep that is like protecting us from the banks (pay up and shut up). If you have a monitored alarm it will ring a centre who will ring you and then if its not you they will ring the gaurds who will show up sometime and you will pay € 5 a day to have this person call you when the alarm goes off. So forgive me for being silly but why not have the alarm system call you and spend your € 5 on a holiday or fish and chips or something. I digress.


Automation is all about what you want from your system nothing is perfect but integration will save you money and that is the ultimate goal saving energy saving monay so that you can spend your cash on a new Harley.




Anyhow, enough for today !

2011

Fantastic post Gmoyne, very informative.

gmoyne

2011 wrote: »

Fantastic post Gmoyne, very informative.

Thanks !

The next part of any plan is to orgaise where you will go with this kinda like planning a holiday. What is it I could possibly ever want to do and then make out a plan for every room as if it was in isolation of everything else in the plan.

Not sure why cables are strung in a roof where you cannot ever get at them.
I have seen so many houses which look like spaghetti junction. Nice clean trunking with a pull cord in the floors with inspection traps at regular intervals is worth a thought. At least you can then get at the cables and repair replace and add as and when you will.
There is also a way to install a fire system in the ducting should you ever be unfortunate to have an electrical fire which will also isolate the system whilst putting out the fire. Yes, it can be done and not too expensive. Allot cheaper than replacing a house and safer.

I generally build consumer units off site which will allow the insertion of just about anything once it has been decided what the project is going to be none of this tiny cabinets above doors which might have been grand years ago but now integration is the buzz word and the cabinet should be big enough to allow just about anything in there. No, the dog is definitely not allowed in or the cat for that matter!

pauliemc

HI all
hopefully some of you have completed what i am hoping to do.... need some advise and guidance, keeping the house renovated and the electrician has wired it with cat 6 cabling and TV points for both satellite and UPC to a central point - cables are hanging loose at this point and not connected to anything- see attached rough drawing.

I am very new to all this so need advice on what to do next... I am planning on getting UPC into the house for TV and Broadband but need to know what to do. Rang UPC and the were less that helpful and seem to just want to come in and run there cable to the TV...

Appreciate any guidance or even recommendation of someone who could finish the job

Thanks in advance

Stoner

Hi Paulie this is a 5 or 6 year old thread it would be better to open a new thread and copy your questions into it.

I might be it some assistance on this subject, and I'll post in a new thread .

Thank you.