scrapping the RDF - would it matter?

OS119

If, tomorrow, the DoD announced that they were scrapping the RDF, what effect would it have on the national security of the state and the amount of force the state could actually bring to bear?

Donny5

OS119 wrote: »

If, tomorrow, the DoD announced that they were scrapping the RDF, what effect would it have on the national security of the state and the amount of force the state could actually bring to bear?

Don't be ridiculous! The DoD don't work on Bank Holidays.

minidazzler

In reality it wouldn't matter at all. There might be a few small protests but the RDF is so inconsequential to National Security that if there was a major situation we could actually end up being a hindrance due to the sheer number of incompetant and/or unfit people.

But in fairness if we were attacked by almost any country we would fall fairly fast no matter if the RDF were there or not.

concussion

It would make a difference - if the RDF didn't exist, how many PDF troops would be held back from frontline duty in order to guard logs bases, installations, convoys etc etc.?

diverdriver

It would make a difference - if the RDF didn't exist, how many PDF troops would be held back from frontline duty in order to guard logs bases, installations, convoys etc etc.?

In time of war? Or now? I don't really think the RDF carries out that role to any extent right now.

I have to say despite proud service in the FCA, (yes proud) and as somene who supports the idea of a part time reserve. Is it something whose day has past? Would it matter? I'm sorry to say, no. Only for those that served.

I suspect it will go, maybe not this time but soon as part of the overall cuts we will experience over the next few years. Perhaps not all at once with emotional flag waving parades but with the death of a thousand cuts. Whittled away to a tiny rump of specialists.

I suspect too that the PDF won't escape either. There will be tidying up. The Air Corps has to be on top of the list for that.

OS119

concussion wrote: »

It would make a difference - if the RDF didn't exist, how many PDF troops would be held back from frontline duty in order to guard logs bases, installations, convoys etc etc.?

i'm tempted to think that in any conflict in which the PDF were seriously deployed with artillery, AD, mech etc... that those base duties wouldn't need doing - primarily because those bases, and indeed the coherant, formed units making up the Army, would no longer exist.

any adversary that neccessitated the use of what combat power the PDF can put forward would be a state, and given that Ireland is the only state in the world which hasn't read AirLand doctrine or seen what happens to Armies sitting under skies dominated by the enemy, such a confict would see all Irish rear area installations as well as foward deployed forces fairly quickly turned into smoking holes in the ground and well-dressed refugees respectively - so those tasks wouldn't be required.

i accept that there is a 'less than war' function for the RDF - think perhaps NI goes into a Balkan-style civil war pre/post UI - but not only is that possibility astonshingly remote, the RDF isn't really in position to add much: if only 2,500 or so members from over 11,000 qualified for Grat, and even that is alleged to be a somewhat suspect figure with regards to 'how many could, if needed, do the job?' then the RDF doesn't seem to be worth what little money and effort goes into it.

Hard Larry

OS119 wrote: »

i'm tempted to think that in any conflict in which the PDF were seriously deployed with artillery, AD, mech etc... that those base duties wouldn't need doing - primarily because those bases, and indeed the coherant, formed units making up the Army, would no longer exist.

any adversary that neccessitated the use of what combat power the PDF can put forward would be a state, and given that Ireland is the only state in the world which hasn't read AirLand doctrine or seen what happens to Armies sitting under skies dominated by the enemy, such a confict would see all Irish rear area installations as well as foward deployed forces fairly quickly turned into smoking holes in the ground and well-dressed refugees respectively - so those tasks wouldn't be required.

i accept that there is a 'less than war' function for the RDF - think perhaps NI goes into a Balkan-style civil war pre/post UI - but not only is that possibility astonshingly remote, the RDF isn't really in position to add much: if only 2,500 or so members from over 11,000 qualified for Grat, and even that is alleged to be a somewhat suspect figure with regards to 'how many could, if needed, do the job?' then the RDF doesn't seem to be worth what little money and effort goes into it.

I'm very interested to know why all your threads and posts degenerate into a "Paddy Bashing" exercise. Surely you have something better to do with your time?

OS119

Hard Larry wrote: »

I'm very interested to know why all your threads and posts degenerate into a "Paddy Bashing" exercise...

errr... they don't.

sorry.

Hard Larry

You started a thread about the what consequence would disbanding the RDF have on the Irish Defence Forces and within 5 posts (after someone giving a use for the RDF if the Army ever found itself at full stretch) Ireland now lies in a smoking ruin its people refugees.

And this isn't the first post I've noticed these apocalyptic analogies in.
Any peron whose serves in the Irish Defence Forces and doesn't think conditions could be vastly improved is delusional. But money is better spent on Health & Education TBH.

If one of the superpowers (or their close friends) should feel the need to lay waste to Ireland and its people then its probably safe to say the world has gone tits up and Ireland probably wouldn't be the first port of call on any ones sh1t list anyway.

cork1

how many times has this been done???

OS119

Hard Larry wrote: »

You started a thread about the what consequence would disbanding the RDF have on the Irish Defence Forces and within 5 posts (after someone giving a use for the RDF if the Army ever found itself at full stretch) Ireland now lies in a smoking ruin its people refugees.

are you suggesting that Ireland's Armed Forces have any capabilty whatsoever to defeat/threaten/deter/concern/cause minor annoyance to any state with the capabilty and intention to wage conventional warfare with Ireland?

my point is that in terms of territorial defence the Irish military may as well not exist through its lack of airpower, 'theatre mobility' and firepower - its barely a speed-bump let alone a guardian of soveriegnty. any state (doesn't matter who) with the expedionary capability to land a single battalion on Irish territory would also have the airpower capability to defeat the Irish military, therefore as a guardian of the state's territorial integrity
the IM is a waste of money. i would suggest that the IM would face exactly the same result regardless of the existance or otherwise of the RDF, ergo the RDF is an irrelevence in territorial defence.

ok, so lets look at the use of the IM by the state overseas, whether to secure (militarily) Irish interests or as a direct political play: the RDF plays no part whatsoever in overseas operations, not even to the point of doing 'home duties' to allow greater numbers of PDF personnel to deploy. so 0/10. there seems to be little political appetite to allow it to do so in the future, and even though many suggest that 'integration' was badly bungled (and possibly deliberately so), few RDF personnel seem overly enthusiastic to take their commitment to a level where they could be useful to the PDF even if the government were to allow it.

internal security - no role at present, but i accept that it may be useful, though in a limited way because of the limited numbers of those who are sufficiently commited, in the event of a Balkan-lite type situation up north. on the other hand, how likely is that - and do the odds support the RDF's contuinued existance?

so its not 'paddy-bashing'. i have issues with a long-standing political/military doctrine that has formed a 'half-way house' capability between Army and Gendarmerie that infact has produced little more than a Gengarmerie but at much greater cost, and yet pretends to both the public and the military that its something at the 'Army' end of that spectrum. policy bashing yes, paddy bashing no.

i suspect that making allegations of paddy-bashing are easier on the pride than the idea that current Irish political and military doctrine may be fundamentally flawed...

concussion

OS - If the situation you envisage results in the PDF being destroyed then the presence of absence of the RDF is meaningless. It follows that the thread should either locked or changed to 'scrapping the PDF - would it matter?'

Edit - to answer your question based on the assumption that the OPFOR will completely annihilate the PDF -

OS119 wrote: »

what effect would it have on the national security of the state and the amount of force the state could actually bring to bear?

The RDF can free up PDF from guarding installations, logs bases and convoys, thus increasing the amount of force the state could actually bring to bear for the 30 seconds it takes us to be completely overrun :rolleyes:

superref

concussion wrote: »

It would make a difference - if the RDF didn't exist, how many PDF troops would be held back from frontline duty in order to guard logs bases, installations, convoys etc etc.?

what logs bases instalations and convoys do the rdf guard

Maybe im mistaken or is that what you are implementing ?

concussion

None. But if there was a need to fend off Johnny Foreigner then logs bases become a requirement. And I would prefer that the PDF go off and do the fighting rather than standing around guarding ammo, rations, POL etc.

superref

concussion wrote: »

None. But if there was a need to fend off Johnny Foreigner then logs bases become a requirement. And I would prefer that the PDF go off and do the fighting rather than standing around guarding ammo, rations, POL etc.

there is no fighting to go off to peacekeeping/enforcement,the rdf would never does duties they are all mainly day time jobs

Hard Larry

are you suggesting that Ireland's Armed Forces have any capabilty whatsoever to defeat/threaten/deter/concern/cause minor annoyance to any state with the capabilty and intention to wage conventional warfare with Ireland?

Are you suggesting that their is nation out there wants to wage conventional warfare on Ireland? Seems to me the Great Nations of this Planet have enough on their plate trying to defeat Islamic Fundamentalism before they turn their sights on the work dodging Catholics of Ireland

my point is that in terms of territorial defence the Irish military may as well not exist through its lack of airpower, 'theatre mobility' and firepower - its barely a speed-bump let alone a guardian of soveriegnty. any state (doesn't matter who) with the expedionary capability to land a single battalion on Irish territory would also have the airpower capability to defeat the Irish military, therefore as a guardian of the state's territorial integrity
the IM is a waste of money. i would suggest that the IM would face exactly the same result regardless of the existance or otherwise of the RDF, ergo the RDF is an irrelevence in territorial defence.

Totally agree with you but the Cold War ended years ago. All you have to do is go to After Hours forum and see the gripes of the people of Ireland...Defence is way down the list, in fact it may not even be on the list.

ok, so lets look at the use of the IM by the state overseas, whether to secure (militarily) Irish interests or as a direct political play: the RDF plays no part whatsoever in overseas operations, not even to the point of doing 'home duties' to allow greater numbers of PDF personnel to deploy. so 0/10. there seems to be little political appetite to allow it to do so in the future, and even though many suggest that 'integration' was badly bungled (and possibly deliberately so), few RDF personnel seem overly enthusiastic to take their commitment to a level where they could be useful to the PDF even if the government were to allow it.

AFAIK some RDF units in the South are covering Garrison Duties, but that could be hearsay and rumour. The DF was all geared up to send RDF personnel Overseas, but again money/politics intervened and the plans were scrapped.

so its not 'paddy-bashing'. i have issues with a long-standing political/military doctrine that has formed a 'half-way house' capability between Army and Gendarmerie that infact has produced little more than a Gengarmerie but at much greater cost, and yet pretends to both the public and the military that its something at the 'Army' end of that spectrum. policy bashing yes, paddy bashing no.

The policy is not going to change any time soon, who knows what the EU will bring to the table or if Irish Soldiers get sent to Afghanistan maybe then a policy shift might occur, I am no fan of propoganda campaigns that Armies run in order to recruit but the Irish are hardly solely guilty of this.

i suspect that making allegations of paddy-bashing are easier on the pride than the idea that current Irish political and military doctrine may be fundamentally flawed...

nothing wrong on the pride front here either, if there was i'd probably be over on Boards.lux (Luxemburg) or Boards.Sz (Switzerland) slagging them off for having cat Defence Forces and crap policies.

OS119

concussion wrote: »

None. But if there was a need to fend off Johnny Foreigner then logs bases become a requirement. And I would prefer that the PDF go off and do the fighting rather than standing around guarding ammo, rations, POL etc.

OK, thats a perfectly logical doctrine - have PDF as the fighting units and RDF as the 'enablers': loggies, force protection and paper monkeys.

in which case, why not configure the RDF to that model. why have a 'shadow army' that can't be used, and why not convert the current 11,000 man reserve into a 2,500 man Log Spt 'brigade' that gets all the resources of the current RDF but shares it out between less than a quarter of the strength?

more kit, more training days, less 'dead wood' and a realistic war role...

concussion

superref wrote: »

there is no fighting to go off to peacekeeping/enforcement,the rdf would never does duties they are all mainly day time jobs

I don't quite know what you're getting at - we are talking hypothetical situations here. IF Ireland was invaded then logs bases etc would be needed and these would need to be guarded. Better the RDF guarding them than the PDF. I can't make it much simpler.

OS119 wrote: »

OK, thats a perfectly logical doctrine - have PDF as the fighting units and RDF as the 'enablers': loggies, force protection and paper monkeys.

in which case, why not configure the RDF to that model. why have a 'shadow army' that can't be used, and why not convert the current 11,000 man reserve into a 2,500 man Log Spt 'brigade' that gets all the resources of the current RDF but shares it out between less than a quarter of the strength?

more kit, more training days, less 'dead wood' and a realistic war role...

Because no-one would turn up. People choose Infantry, Artillery etc for a reason - there are some who join LSB's but to expect every Reservist to be a driver, security guard etc is pushing it. Despite the fact that this is what is what would probably happen to the majority of the Reserve infantry. I can see Arty, Cav, Sigs etc being used in their actual role though to fill gaps.

As for more days, kit etc - the strength of the reserve was 6973 at the end of August 09 ( http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2009-10-08.330.0 ), and last year only ~2500 completed the minimum training requirements (~1500 who received gratuity and a further 1000 recruits who completed their training). Changing this to a 2500 strong Log Bde wont make any difference to the training we can do.

goldie fish

In the current "Benign Security environment" a suspension of the activities of the Army reserve would have NIL effect.
However the Naval Reserve are quite busy filling gaps aboard ship. They would be missed much quicker.

concussion

Just to pick up on a point from earlier, Reservists provide Guards, Guard Commanders, BOS's and Orderly Officers in manned bases when required.

OS119

concussion wrote: »

As for more days, kit etc - the strength of the reserve was 6973 at the end of August 09 ( http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2009-10-08.330.0 ), and last year only ~2500 completed the minimum training requirements (~1500 who received gratuity and a further 1000 recruits who completed their training). Changing this to a 2500 strong Log Bde wont make any difference to the training we can do.

i disagree, while the current strength of the reserve is 6973, its establishment is rather higher, so the DoD is paying for infrastructure/weapons/equipment/uniforms for 11,948 (is that right, i got it from the DoD website but i'm not absolutely clear whether thats RDF, or RDF + FLR?) yet trains, to some degree or other, 6973, of which some 2500 could be considered 'effective'. take establishment and strength down to 2500 and you'd release significant resources for the improved training and equipping those 2500.

i realise that 'join the RDF and stack blankets' isn't going to bring the masses in through the door, however from reading ad nausem 'why is the RDF crap?' threads on IMO it appears a major problem with having a 'mass' reserve is that very little training happens, standards are low, and RDFer's are leaving precisely because too few resources are spread over too large an organisation that they feel is unusable. i know that there was a move to get a small number of reservists overseas - in what appeared to be the 'great white hope' of the RDF - but from what i can see it was deliberately made unworkable from the outset before being canned on administrative grounds.

i don't think the status quo is remotely justifiable on military or cost grounds, so something will happen to the RDF, the debate - as i see it - is whether its made smaller, better trained and useful, or disbanded altogether.

concussion

2500 people attending FTT out of an establishment of 11,000-odd isn't much different to 2500 out of 2500 (in terms of food, accomodation, instructors etc. Other things such as rifles, helmets, CEFO are in stores already). I see the points you're making, but with only a third or a quarter of the establishment training over the last few years (and probably longer) I don't think it's going to make much of a difference.

The Reserve is supposed to be cut down to 2,500 anyway (to save 5 million Euro) so it's something we can wait to see. I don't think it will make much difference without other things I've mentioned here and on IMO; proper recruitment screening, entry and annual fitness testing, higher minimum standards for basic skills such as fieldcraft, infantry small unit tactics, weapons handling etc etc.

I'm off on holidays so hopefully we can pick this up on Friday...


Edit -

OS119 wrote: »

the RDF plays no part whatsoever in overseas operations, not even to the point of doing 'home duties' to allow greater numbers of PDF personnel to deploy

The PDF can only deploy 10% of Army strength overseas at any time, something which regularly happens. RDF providing duties at home won't have much effect on this either.

Zambia

I do agree with OS119 in respect that any army in this day and age taking to the field in a conventional fight without Air support is just cannon fodder. Unless they have some serious SAM kit in good supply. Then they might make it though Day one.

However thats not the question and as the RDF has no current National Security role then no scrapping it would not affect the Nations security at all.

Lets face it if we are invaded its run to the shadows ,remove uniforms , have a few cans , wait till the f**kers get comfy then start operation "Lets be a pain in the ass to rule till they get pi55ed of an leave"

its a good plan why mess with it.

Grudaire

Zambia232 wrote: »

Lets face it if we are invaded its run to the shadows ,remove uniforms , have a few cans , wait till the f**kers get comfy then start operation "Lets be a pain in the ass to rule till they get pi55ed of an leave"

its a good plan why mess with it.

Perhaps we should develop it more!

It'll be hard to start ia rising from nothing. I'd suggest leaving lots of guns around the country, train the RDF how to use them, and good pain in the ass techniques...

ie aim for something more like what the Swiss have!