Fergie V Referee's Round 14 [read mod note in OP/post#1]

FunkZ

mod note: please read the following warning before you go any further: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62714935&postcount=7

Can't find this in any of the team threads so I'm gonna post it up before I rush out my door!

Referees have responded forcefully to Sir Alex Ferguson's criticisms of their abilities by claiming the Manchester United manager's knowledge of football's rules is alarmingly hazy and that his twin attacks on Alan Wiley and Andre Marriner should prompt a stadium ban. "It's so frustrating when a manager as experienced and respected as Sir Alex Ferguson makes a statement about the laws of the game which is completely inaccurate," said Jeff Winter, a former Premier League referee.

Winter was highlighting Ferguson's insistence that Jamie Carragher should have been shown a red rather than yellow card for hauling down Michael Owen on the edge of the area during United's 2-0 defeat at Liverpool yesterday.


Another senior refereeing source, still officiating at Premier League matches, agreed with Winter. "Ferguson clearly doesn't understand the law about the denial of an obvious goal-scoring opportunity," he said. "The fouled player has to have full control of the ball and has to be moving towards the goal but Michael Owen did not fulfil either condition.
"[Sunday's match official] Andre Marriner was absolutely right to award a yellow card and a direct free-kick," he added. "It would have been totally wrong for him to have sent Jamie Carragher off. And Sir Alex should never have said that Andre Marriner was not an experienced referee when he is on the Fifa list and got all the important decisions right on Sunday."


Ferguson's latest comments, although circumspect in comparison with his criticism of Wiley, were being analysed by the Football Association's compliance department today. It is understood, however, that the FA is unlikely to bring any charges against the United manager for questioning Marriner's experience to officiate a game of Sunday's magnitude or criticising the referee's refusal to dismiss Carragher or award a penalty against the Liverpool defender for a challenge on Michael Carrick.


As a veteran of several run-ins with Ferguson, Winter wonders if United's manager was merely deflecting attention from a defeat. "I don't know if Sir Alex Ferguson has got a problem with referees but he has got a problem when Manchester United don't win and blaming the referee is the easy option," he said. "His statement about Carragher shows that either he doesn't know the laws of the game or he's resorting to mind games again."


Winter disagrees with suggestions that Ferguson is mellowing with age. "There are signs that his temper is getting worse," he said. "Some of his touchline antics, when you see the veins standing out on his neck and see him swearing and shouting, are not too good for his own health let alone anyone else's.


"I don't know whether it's age or what but he seems to be getting less tolerant of everybody and everything – especially when Manchester United don't manage to win. This sort of thing seems to be happening every other week with him now."


Like others in the refereeing fraternity, Winter is hoping that the FA will punish Ferguson severely for not just yesterday's comments but his suggestions that Wiley's fitness was suspect following United's recent 2-2 home draw against Sunderland.


"If I were the FA I would personally impose a Fifa-style stadium ban on Sir Alex," said Winter. "I think it's got to be harsh punishment to teach him and everyone else a lesson. The FA have to take serious action against him. Anything less and the Respect campaign is dead in the water. They've got to show Sir Alex and everyone else that behaviour like this will not be tolerated. A fine or, in this case, even a touchline ban won't be enough."
A stadium ban would leave Ferguson watching from the stands and barred from any contact with his players before or during a match once they have entered the stadium. In 2005 Chelsea's then-manager Jose Mourinho received a two-game stadium ban following his comments about Anders Frisk following a Champions League game against Barcelona.


Winter felt Marriner had a "very good" game but acknowledged it was the referee's first Premier League game involving two top-four teams. "There's a first time for everything, though," said Winter. "Andre did well because players from both sides had clearly been told to pressure him and I noticed that his every decision was contested by at least three players."


He also feels the FA should speed up their disciplinary procedures. "All this suggests that Sir Alex isn't really concerned about the authorities," he said. "It's three-and-a-half weeks since his comments about Alan Wiley and still nothing has happened."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/26/alex-ferguson-referees-manchester-united

Tried to paragraph it out. I'm off :P

Keano

The day Fergie admits one of his teams got played off the park will be the day he dies. So, he has to attack the officials, thats what they are there for, isn't it? :P

mike65

He has to be dealt with (as should all whining managers), if found to be contraveening some rule or other. A touchline ban is pointless, you have to hit a club where it hurts - points.

FunkZ

Keano A Legend wrote: »

The day Fergie admits one of his teams got played off the park will be the day he dies. So, he has to attack the officials, thats what they are there for, isn't it? :P

He's the biggest wanker this side of France!

Fink Goddie

Seeing Fergie having a little tantrum just makes the win even sweeter! LOL

thegen

Bit strange we have not heard his mate Sam on about refs this week:rolleyes:

therecklessone

There is a topic for discussion here, but if anyone is considering useing this thread as a platform to troll or post abuse I suggest you reread the forum charter and the recent announcement before you continue any further

thegen

thegen wrote: »

Bit strange we have not heard his mate Sam on about refs this week:rolleyes:

No he just had a go at his players instead!

He drove the poor feckers to Swine Flu

The Muppet

mike65 wrote: »

He has to be dealt with (as should all whining managers), if found to be contraveening some rule or other. A touchline ban is pointless, you have to hit a club where it hurts - points.

Keep it real Mike, points deducted for complaining about refs would make a farce of the game.

Punish him by all means but keep it in proportion to the crime.

As a veteran of several run-ins with Ferguson, Winter wonders if United's manager was merely deflecting attention from a defeat. "I don't know if Sir Alex Ferguson has got a problem with referees but he has got a problem when Manchester United don't win and blaming the referee is the easy option," he said. "His statement about Carragher shows that either he doesn't know the laws of the game or he's resorting to mind games again."

This man speaks sense.

gosplan

FunkZ wrote: »

He's the biggest wanker this side of France!

And what the hell is that supposed to mean? I've friends that are French.

ArmaniJeanss

I thought he was quite gracious in defeat on Sunday, it was also mentioned at the time on the match thread.

With 5 minutes to go in the game the media almost certainly had a mental picture of how they were going to fill pages with 'Fergie explodes', 'SAF rants' stories. Expecting him to ballistic afterwards.

It didn't happen - so the newspapers dusted off their disappointment and decided to spin his rather mild post match interview into 'Fergie explodes' stories anyway. Then the exRef society gets involved as well.

Much ado about nothing.

That_Guy

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I thought he was quite gracious in defeat on Sunday, it was also mentioned at the time on the match thread.

With 5 minutes to go in the game the media almost certainly had a mental picture of how they were going to fill pages with 'Fergie explodes', 'SAF rants' stories. Expecting him to ballistic afterwards.

It didn't happen - so the newspapers dusted off their disappointment and decided to spin his rather mild post match interview into 'Fergie explodes' stories anyway. Then the exRef society gets involved as well.

Much ado about nothing.

He's forever doing it though. It's getting boring at this stage. And what makes it worse is that he seems to be the only manager who thinks/knows he can get away with pretty much anything.

He's a great manager and one of the greatest in the world but he can talk utter nonsence sometimes.

What does he want from a referee? Marriner did a great job on Sunday and was consistent throughout. He gave Carragher a yellow and gave Vidic a yellow for the same kind of incident. The only difference between Carragher and Vidic is that Vidic had been previously booked earlier in the match.

RasTa

Wow a point’s ban? That is the stupidest thing I've read on here in a while.

Pighead

That_Guy wrote: »

What does he want from a referee? Marriner did a great job on Sunday and was consistent throughout.

He was consistent alright. Consistently bad. He had a shocker of a game on Sunday and made some really strange decisions. He was poor for both teams.

mike65

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/27/sir-alex-ferguson-admits-charge

The Manchester United manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, has accepted the FA's charge of improper conduct following his comments on the fitness of the referee Alan Wiley.

Ferguson, who criticised Wiley following his team's 2-2 draw with Sunderland at Old Trafford on 3 October, has requested a personal hearing. The date for that has yet to be decided.

Headshot

That_Guy wrote: »

He's forever doing it though. It's getting boring at this stage. And what makes it worse is that he seems to be the only manager who thinks/knows he can get away with pretty much anything.

you should read the the sports news more often

super_furry

Pighead wrote: »

He was consistent alright. Consistently bad. He had a shocker of a game on Sunday and made some really strange decisions. He was poor for both teams.

Really? I don't think he got a single major decision wrong.

I think Alex really needs to be called to task for once and for all. A five/six game stadium ban might knock some sense into him.

That_Guy

Headshot wrote: »

you should read the the sports news more often

Oh yeah. Forgot he was pulled up on the Wiley comments. My bad.

Pighead

super_furry wrote: »

Really? I don't think he got a single major decision wrong.

I think Alex really needs to be called to task for once and for all. A five/six game stadium ban might knock some sense into him.

We must have been watching different games so! The ref looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights for most of the match.

He booked Evra and gave Liverpool a free kick after Torres tripped himself up. Berbatovs yellow card was a total joke. Mascherano and Lucas both went into a tackle hard but fair and came away with the ball which resulted in the ref blowing up for a Utd free kick.

It could be argued that Carragher should have seen red for his foul on Owen but I wouldn't take issue with the ref there as it was a tough call seeing as there was a couple of Pool players running back to save the day.

Aidric

mike65 wrote: »

He has to be dealt with (as should all whining managers), if found to be contraveening some rule or other. A touchline ban is pointless, you have to hit a club where it hurts - points.

I'll have to assume that's a joke.

Some of his touchline antics, when you see the veins standing out on his neck and see him swearing and shouting, are not too good for his own health let alone anyone else's.

I'm sure Winter is concerned for his health, a thinly disguised dig methinks.

Headshot

That_Guy wrote: »

Oh yeah. Forgot he was pulled up on the Wiley comments. My bad.

see the important word in you last post is "only manager"

rafa got away with questioning the performance of a referee

and im sure if i go searching ill find other managers too

mike65

Aidric wrote: »

I'll have to assume that's a joke.

What would you suggest that would actually curtail a managers behaviour? Esp serial bullies like Fergie?

rossie1977

Headshot wrote: »

rafa got away with questioning the performance of a referee

except rafa didn't question the ref, they adjudged him taking off his glasses as questionable.........

ferguson verbally said the ref was unfit to do his job

Headshot

rossie1977 wrote: »

except rafa didn't question the ref, they adjudged him taking off his glasses as questionable.........

"Can you get two penalties at an away ground? No. With this referee, I knew that this was impossible."

and the glasses off was of course and jibe at the ref

also Rossie your club more or less admitted rafa did wrong

Liverpool released a statement claiming the commission ‘expressed their surprise at the failure of the FA to charge another manager who had made a similar gesture the same weekend.’

the fa couldnt do anything because warnock got away with it before rafa's one

Fink Goddie

I think Fergie should have been happy with the ref giving United 5 mins extra time to get back into the game. there's no way 5 mins should have been given, 2 at max.

Frisbee

Pighead wrote: »

He booked Evra and gave Liverpool a free kick after Torres tripped himself up.

Evra wasn't booked for that?
He was booked for the next incident where he tackled Torres from behind just outside the box.

kida

Frisbee wrote: »

Evra wasn't booked for that?
He was booked for the next incident where he tackled Torres from behind just outside the box.

the ref pointe to where the previous incident occurred so had a bearing on it

The Muppet

mike65 wrote: »

What would you suggest that would actually curtail a managers behaviour? Esp serial bullies like Fergie?

Preferrably something that wouldn't undermine the credibility of the competition.

Pighead

Frisbee wrote: »

Evra wasn't booked for that?
He was booked for the next incident where he tackled Torres from behind just outside the box.

Yes but the booking was a punishment for the two fouls. Ref didn't book him just for the foul you're talking about. He would have took the previous foul that I'm talking about into consideration. Trouble with that is, it wasn't a foul.

_blank_

Pighead wrote: »

Yes but the booking was a punishment for the two fouls. Ref didn't book him just for the foul you're talking about. He would have took the previous foul that I'm talking about into consideration. Trouble with that is, it wasn't a foul.

Evra was booked for consistant fouling, and the referee clearly pointed to the spot of the Torres-self-trip as the first foul, then the second one. It was a cumulative booking, for definite. Only problem was that Evra was punished for Torres tripping himself.

ShooterSF

Des wrote: »

Evra was booked for consistant fouling, and the referee clearly pointed to the spot of the Torres-self-trip as the first foul, then the second one. It was a cumulative booking, for definite. Only problem was that Evra was punished for Torres tripping himself.

+1
As opposed to Lucas who was given a warning in the first half and then went on to commit 4 or 5 more fouls in the game without a booking. Also Carragher and Vidic should have seen straight reds. People claiming Carragher wasn't last man have to look at the clip from the second he grabbed Owen not the point where he had him dragged to the ground. Those few seconds where Owen's sprint was impeded is when the other defenders made up their ground.
Anywho that's pretty off topic. Fergie's comments were over the line though necessary from a supporters point of view (instilling the everyone is against us attitude) and he should serve a touch line ban.

super_furry

I don't think a touchline ban is enough. It should be a stadium ban – don't let him into the stadium on the day of the match.

RasTa

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think a touchline ban is enough. It should be a stadium ban – don't let him into the stadium on the day of the match.

Sure we might as well send him off the face of the earth on matchday, how about space?

leninbenjamin

I'd love to know where this statement comes from:

"Ferguson clearly doesn't understand the law about the denial of an obvious goal-scoring opportunity," he said. "The fouled player has to have full control of the ball and has to be moving towards the goal but Michael Owen did not fulfil either condition.

Now I've watched the replay again. Now Owen was certainly moving towards the goal, and the only reason he doesn't have full control of the ball was because Carragher pulled him down, despite Owen having put himself between Carragher and the ball.

Here's the rule:

denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a
penalty kick

And here's the referee guidelines:

Denying a goal or a goal-scoring opportunity
There are two sending-off offences that deal with denying an opponent an
obvious opportunity to score a goal. It is not necessary for the offence to occur inside the penalty area.

If the referee applies advantage during an obvious goal-scoring opportunity
and a goal is scored directly, despite the opponent’s handling the ball or fouling an opponent, the player cannot be sent off but he may still be cautioned.

Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding whether
to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity:
• the distance between the offence and the goal
• the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• the direction of the play
• the location and number of defenders
• the offence which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity
may be an offence that incurs a direct free kick or an indirect free kick

There's nothing in that to confirm what this ref is saying. And also there's nothing in that to say the offence shouldn't have warranted a red.

Now i'm not trying to defend Fergy here, he should know to shut up at this stage, but those statements by the refs do stink of someone protecting their own to me.

Necronomicon

Keano A Legend wrote: »

The day Fergie admits one of his teams got played off the park will be the day he dies.

He pretty much did that yesterday. He did question some of the decisions, but he made no excuse for the performance and conceded Liverpool deserved the win. The stuff he said about Wiley was out of line, sure. But his comments yesterday were quite reserved and IMO were nothing another manager wouldn't have said, so let's not pretend Fergie is a sole offender here.

BaZmO*

Keano A Legend wrote: »

The day Fergie admits one of his teams got played off the park will be the day he dies. So, he has to attack the officials, thats what they are there for, isn't it? :P

Did Fergie die on Sunday?

“All in all, Liverpool were the better team, they created more chances, they were better than us on the day so I’ve no complaints,” Ferguson said

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/1026/1224257456348.html

super_furry

“All in all, Liverpool were the better team, they created more chances, they were better than us on the day so I’ve no complaints,” Ferguson said...........after complaining for five minutes.

Necronomicon

super_furry wrote: »

“All in all, Liverpool were the better team, they created more chances, they were better than us on the day so I’ve no complaints,” Ferguson said...........after complaining for five minutes.

Did you even watch the interview?

http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/liverpool-2-0-manchester-united-ferguson-interview-25102009/3709761994

Interviewer: Sir Alex, can you give us your thoughts on the game?
Ferguson: Well, it was a disappointing performance, the first half in particular.

So, the first thing he said, after 5 seconds, was about United's poor performance. He did go on to say that he felt United missed out on a few major decisions, but he explained in a measured way why he thought the tackle on Carrick was a penalty and why Carragher should have walked.

FFS, people have no problem having a pop just because it's Fergie.

BolBill

Its the same old same old. United dont get 3 points and its the refs fault, not the players, the ref, always the ref, not the fact he insisted on playing Berbatov (oh a big game Im not interested) and Scholes (past it and should be kept for the Carling Cup), never Slurs fault, just the damn ref.

Ah well.

Watch the FA bottle it when it comes to a touchline ban.

Mr. Presentable

Pighead wrote: »

He was consistent alright. Consistently bad. He had a shocker of a game on Sunday and made some really strange decisions. He was poor for both teams.

A balanced performance so. Given that, why would one have more gripe than another.

Mr Alan

does seem after this Wiley incident that the tide may be starting to turn. Martinez saying wat a lot of people think;

Martinez wrote:

Roberto Martínez has accused the English football authorities of being intimidated by Sir Alex Ferguson, saying that the Scot is treated differently to other managers in the game. The Wigan Athletic manager insisted that his Manchester United counterpart is allowed to get away with more than his Premier League rivals, who would be "crushed" for committing the same crimes, and is protected by a cabal of coaches who court his favour.

Ferguson has admitted a charge of improper conduct over remarks he made about the referee Alan Wiley following this month's 2-2 draw with Sunderland at Old Trafford. He has apologised for causing Wiley "personal embarrassment" by questioning his fitness and there have been calls for him to be handed a lengthy touchline ban. He also courted controversy over his suggestion that Andre Marriner lacked the experience to referee Sunday's 2-0 defeat at Liverpool. But Martínez expressed doubts that the punishment handed down will be as severe as that meted out to other coaches, as there is little appetite for taking Ferguson to task.

"They have just sanctioned Ferguson for saying that referee was not fit enough and the truth is that they're almost apologising to him for punishing him," Martínez said. "Any other coach would have been crushed for that." Asked if Ferguson dictates English football, Martínez told the Spanish paper AS: "Yes, a lot." He added: "Ferguson has been here for a lifetime and that carries a lot of weight."

Martínez believes that Ferguson's position is strengthened by a group of disciples whom the Scot cultivates as loyal allies against his enemies such as the Liverpool coach, Rafael Benítez. There was a hint, too, that Martínez suspects Ferguson dangles the carrot of Old Trafford succession before the eyes of those loyal to him.

In April Ferguson attacked Benítez for having previously described David Moyes's Everton as a "small club" and for showing "contempt" for opponents with a gesture he made on the touchline during a 4-0 victory over Sam Allardyce's Blackburn Rovers. Allardyce complained Benítez's gesture was humiliating – but only after Ferguson spoke out. He made no comment after the game about a signal Benítez said was a self-deprecating one to his own team.

Allardyce and Moyes are close friends of Ferguson. Moyes has been widely touted as a candidate for Ferguson's job when he retires while Martínez believes Allardyce has designs on the post, too. "Ferguson has his group of faithfuls, people who are committed to him: Steve Bruce, who was a player with him, Sam Allardyce, who thinks he will be his successor at Old Trafford, and others," Martínez said. "On the other side there's Rafa Benítez and he gets attacked from all sides."

The Football Association is being urged to commit Ferguson to an official agreement that he will curtail his criticism of referees. Ferguson has requested a personal hearing at which he will apologise again for accusing Wiley of booking players because he needed a rest from running but Alan Leighton, the national secretary of the trade union Prospect, of which referees are members, wants the FA to make an example of Ferguson.

"We welcome the fact that he [Ferguson] has admitted his guilt and hope he will now dedicate himself to furthering the Respect agenda," said Leighton. "If I was someone on the [FA disciplinary] panel I might be asking him for a commitment not to do the same thing again."

first thing that occured to me is Dave Whelan won't be happy!

killwill

BolBill wrote: »

Its the same old same old. United dont get 3 points and its the refs fault, not the players, the ref, always the ref, not the fact he insisted on playing Berbatov (oh a big game Im not interested) and Scholes (past it and should be kept for the Carling Cup), never Slurs fault, just the damn ref.

Ah well.

Watch the FA bottle it when it comes to a touchline ban.

Are you for real? Quotes from Ferguson are in posts directly above you stating that Liverpool deserved the win as they performed better on the day. Nowhere does he claim it was the refs fault they lost. For the record Berbatov was not that bad. It is very hard for a striker to look good when your midfield are totally outplayed and you are feeding off scraps.

glanman

Martinez comment on Fat Sam is hilarious!!

Ferguson has his group of faithfuls, people who are committed to him: Steve Bruce, who was a player with him, Sam Allardyce, who thinks he will be his successor at Old Trafford, and others,

Well done martinez, spot on. this crap of ferguson requesting a personel hearing... All the clowns on the board will be in awe of the red nosed man... It takes them 24 hours for most bans, about 2 months later they are having the Fergie hearing. Bets on no suspension and them apologising for making he go to the meeting??

mike65

Pity he mentioned Benitez by name, given the two are long time friends.

SlickRic

saying what a lot of people probably think, sure.

but the best part of that is the claim that Sam Allardyce thinks he might the the next Utd manager.

bring it on please.

Boggles

Cringe worthy drival, Martinez standing up for his father Rafa.

Absolute bullshít!!

glanman

Boggles wrote: »

Cringe worthy drival, Martinez standing up for his father Rafa.

Absolute bullshít!!

Going out on a limb here, United fan???

Boggles

glanman wrote: »

Going out on a limb here, United fan???

No Liverpool, why?

What gave it away the big fooking crest as my sig or Stewie in a United Jersey?

super_furry

Martinez speaks the truth. Ferguson gets away with so much because of who he is. The embarrasing and frankly bizarre 'Benitez shuffle' incident when Alex and his mate Big Fat Sam ganged up to try and create some kind of international incident over a hand gesture was indicitive of what goes on. The likes of Moyes, Allardyce and Bruce line up behind Ferguson no matter what.

Boggles

super_furry wrote: »

Martinez speaks the truth. Ferguson gets away with so much because of who he is. The embarrasing and frankly bizarre 'Benitez shuffle' incident when Alex and his mate Big Fat Sam ganged up to try and create some kind of international incident over a hand gesture was indicitive of what goes on. The likes of Moyes, Allardyce and Bruce line up behind Ferguson no matter what.

How is this any less inciteful as what Ferguson said.

glanman

How is it bullshít?? Just because its anti fergie and calling it like it is?? The red nosed man plays refs, plays other managers, plays other clubs and plays the FA. They are facts