Date-rape drink spiking 'an urban legend'

AARRRGH

Cadiz wrote: »

You referred specifically to women (only) in your post. You didn't mention fellas. So my observation was a rational questioning of that.

I didn't suggest no woman (or man come to that) has ever made a bogus rape claim (I've said quite the opposite in several posts here actually), I queried your assured assertion that 'many' women have.

Not agreeing with you and your sweeping statements doesn't make for irrationality. The opposite actually! :rolleyes:

No, you are trying to find meaning which isn't there. Obviously you're quite a pedantic person. Stop trying to project your issues onto my post. I OBVIOUSLY know both men and women can be raped.

I shouldn't have to defend myself on this.

Ann22

A few years ago my cousin was in a club, she'd had a few drinks, not enough to get bladdered on. All of a sudden she felt really unwell, weak and dizzy. A man was hovvering nearby, he approached her and guided her out the door where there was a dark alley where the club exit is. He took her shoes off her and was repeating 'come with me, my wife, my wife will look after you'. Luckily some of her friends came along, asked if she knew the man, at this point he ran off. She spent the night in hospital and her bloods came back showing evidence of some kind of drug, think it was Rohypnol but I'm not sure.
(I was almost finished typing this and popped up to the bathroom, when I came back, my oh had replaced the word 'Rohypnol' with 'sperm'. Feck sake, lucky I spotted it:rolleyes::o)

Cadiz

AARRRGH wrote: »

I shouldn't have to defend myself on this.

Nor can you, as far as I can see

AARRRGH

Ann22 wrote: »

A few years ago my cousin was in a club, she'd had a few drinks, not enough to get bladdered on. All of a sudden she felt really unwell, weak and dizzy. A man was hovvering nearby, he approached her and guided her out the door where there was a dark alley where the club exit is. He took her shoes off her and was repeating 'come with me, my wife, my wife will look after you'. Luckily some of her friends came along, asked if she knew the man, at this point he ran off. She spent the night in hospital and her bloods came back showing evidence of some kind of drug, think it was Rohypnol but I'm not sure.

Not trying to be difficult, but how did your friend's experience get missed by the person gathering the statistics?

I find it hard to believe that so many people seem to be getting their drinks spiked -- and have had hospitals confirm it -- yet hospitals continue to claim it never happens.

I'm not saying you're a liar, I just can't get my head around the lack of evidence for such an apparently common problem.

TheZohanS

Ann22 wrote: »

(I was almost finished typing this and popped up to the bathroom, when I came back, my oh had replaced the word 'Rohypnol' with 'sperm'. Feck sake, lucky I spotted it:rolleyes::o)

Ha ha!



Ok folks lets tone it down a bit on the thread, there's no need for bickering. I've already made my commission this week for bannings.

Pace2008

Kipperhell wrote: »

So it wasn't some random person randomly drug another as I said. You have idiot friends and I am not surprised it happen from such people.

Random drugging are so unbelievable and facts point to something more logical. I really don't believe people who claim they know and have have drug results.

My mates aren't idiots, we have our boundaries of acceptability and the way I see it it was just a bit of fun between friends.

I agree with you that random druggings are implausible for the most part.

Ann22

AARRRGH wrote: »

Not trying to be difficult, but how did your friend's experience get missed by person gathering the statistics?

I find it hard to believe that so many people seems to be getting their drinks spiked -- and have had hospitals confirm it -- yet hospitals continue to claim it never happens.

I'm not saying you're a liar, I just can't get my head around the lack of evidence for such an apparently common problem.

This was a few years ago, time's flying so I couldn't say how long for sure. Why do you ask Aargh? Have there been no proven reports at all in the country? I suppose there is a chance she made it up to not let her mam think she was ossified but the story seemed so detailed. I won't go into details describing the man but he sounded really dubious.I don't know if it was registered anywhere. Maybe it only happens in the whole country once or twice a year compared to the hundreds of folks imagining they were drugged.

AARRRGH

Ann22 wrote: »

This was a few years ago, time's flying so I couldn't say how long for sure. Why do you ask Aargh? Have there been no proven reports at all in the country? I suppose there is a chance she made it up to not let her mam think she was ossified but the story seemed so detailed. I won't go into details describing the man but he sounded really dubious.I don't know if it was registered anywhere. Maybe it only happens in the whole country once or twice a year compared to the hundreds of folks imagining they were drugged.

Yeah the hospitals are saying there is no evidence it happens. It's pretty much always too much alcohol, or alcohol mixed with some sort of prescription drug which the victim took voluntarily.

So I would think in your friends case it's likely she just reacted badly to alcohol that day. I know I have days where I can drink two bottles of wine and be fairly sober, and other days where I'm locked after a glass of wine.

Glad your friend was ok though!

caseyann

It happens a hell of alot,more than even reported because women and men are afraid or embarrassed to come forward.
Its a disgusting.Be it whether the spike you for robbing you(which it also happens) or rapping you:mad:
It actually happens to men to.So anyone who says on occasion or urban myth is fueling protection and doubting the victims.And you to are apart of it because people with attitudes as such are reason alot don't come forward.

titan18

AARRRGH wrote: »

No, you are trying to find meaning which isn't there. Obviously you're quite a pedantic person. Stop trying to project your issues onto my post. I OBVIOUSLY know both men and women can be raped.

I shouldn't have to defend myself on this.

Afaik,only women can be raped under Irish law.It's sexual assault if its a man.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0032/sec0004.html#zza32y1990s4

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1981/en/act/pub/0010/sec0002.html#zza10y1981s2

AARRRGH

caseyann wrote: »

It happens a hell of alot,more than even reported because women and men are afraid or embarrassed to come forward.
Its a disgusting.Be it whether the spike you for robbing you(which it also happens) or rapping you:mad:
It actually happens to men to.So anyone who says on occasion or urban myth is fueling protection and doubting the victims.And you to are apart of it because people with attitudes as such are reason alot don't come forward.

The statistics are based on the many hundreds/thousands of victims who came forward, claiming their drinks were spiked.

It would be quite amazing if the missing evidence was somehow restricted to the victims who didn't come forward...

By the way, saying we are "part of the problem" because we require evidence is frankly, hysterical.

Cadiz

(forgot to quote, I'm referring to the legal definition post by titan)

Is that relevant here? It amounts to the same thing in reality, surely, no matter what it's termed as under the law.

AARRRGH

Cadiz wrote: »

(forgot to quote, I'm referring to the legal definition post by titan)

Is that relevant here? It amounts to the same thing in reality, surely, no matter what it's termed as under the law.

Yeah, I think in court men would be considered the same as women.

For example, our prostitution laws are based purely on sexual intercourse, however I would imagine in court they would cover oral sex, bukkake, etc.

Gummy Panda

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yeah the hospitals are saying there is no evidence it happens. It's pretty much always too much alcohol, or alcohol mixed with some sort of prescription drug which the victim took voluntarily.

Link to source?

I can't seem to find it.

CCCP^

It's not as common as people might think, I mean who has access to those type of drugs? Usually pharmacists and chemists, but they have to account for all their stock, so I don't know how people are supposed to get their hands on that stuff, it's not like your local dealer carries it. BUT it does happen.

AARRRGH

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Link to source?

I can't seem to find it.

I'll have a look later, but it was a report by the Rape Crisis Centre a while back. The person interview was the rape specialist (or whatever) in the hospital which deals with this sort of thing.

caseyann

AARRRGH wrote: »

The statistics are based on the many hundreds/thousands of victims who came forward, claiming their drinks were spiked.

It would be quite amazing if the missing evidence was somehow restricted to the victims who didn't come forward...

By the way, saying we are "part of the problem" because we require evidence is frankly, hysterical.

No no the ones who imply it is urban myth and only happens on occasion is a part of the problem.That is going to make the genuine ones even less likely and afraid of coming forward.One of my friends was spiked luckily i was there and never leave a friends side or god knows what would have happened to her.
And also the beer mats placed in bars and clubs to check their drinks.
Did you not see that documentary?? So if so much of an Urban myth why would they do that?

caseyann

CCCP^ wrote: »

It's not as common as people might think, I mean who has access to those type of drugs? Usually pharmacists and chemists, but they have to account for all their stock, so I don't know how people are supposed to get their hands on that stuff, it's not like your local dealer carries it. BUT it does happen.

Oh you would be very mistaken about that and happens to men to.Alot alot of them don't come forward.
And ofc they can get their hands on it,you can get your hands on anything you want even horse tranquilizers if you know the right people.

Prof.Badass

CCCP^ wrote: »

It's not as common as people might think, I mean who has access to those type of drugs? Usually pharmacists and chemists, but they have to account for all their stock, so I don't know how people are supposed to get their hands on that stuff, it's not like your local dealer carries it. BUT it does happen.

Actually, there was a huge robbery of pharmaceutical sedatives back in may (including 80,000 pills of rohypnol).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0512/breaking38.html

Unless these pills ended up leaving the country they probably ended up in the hands of dealers. I'd imagine they were sold on to desperate benzo-addicts rather than rapists though tbh.

I have no idea how long this amount of drugs would stay around though, they could still be out there.

caseyann

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/studentcrime/studentcrime7e.htm



*Please note these figures do notinclude drug rape incidents reported to the Northern Irish branch of the Roofie Foundation organised by The Rape Crisis & Sexual Abuse Centre, Belfast.
Table 1.2 Where the Drug was Administered*


*Note - These figures include the incidents that occurred abroad
Table 1.3 Age of Victim

• These figures show that this crime is still on the increase - yet very few of these case are ever reported to the police. The Roofie Foundation states that out of the incidents reported to them, less than 15% of victims have officially reported this crime to the police.
  
• Similarly, due to the difficulty in gathering evidence very few of those cases that are reported ever reach court. It also has to be noted that many survivors phone in to report events that happened to them some years ago. Either they have just come to realise what really happened, or have just found the help-line number.
  
• Recently it has been acknowledged that rape is the most under-reported crime in Britain and drug rape is likely to be reported even less. If we accept that only one in five rapes are ever reported and add this factor to the numbers reported on the Roofie help line, the true figure is in excess of 13,000! How many actual victims there are there that haven't reported the crime to the Roofie Foundation, the police or anyone?

The Police

The Roofie Foundation welcomes the increased awareness and sensitivity of police forces around the UK in the handling of drug related rape and sexual abuse and have assisted a number of forces, including Thames Valley, Essex, West Midlands and Northumberland forces in creating their own drink spiking awareness campaigns.
The Roofie Foundation still feels that leadership should be taken at the top and believes that the misuse of so called "date rape drugs" poses a greater threat than a drug such as ecstasy. To put things in perspective, according to official figures, there are between 1.5 - 1.75 million users of ecstasy every weekend, with a total of 111 recorded deaths in England between 1993 and 2001. The misuse of Rohypnol and other drugs such as GHB has led to over 5,500 rapes, leaving behind a trail of traumatized and shattered victims, their partners and their families.
Pubs and Breweries - Time Please

It should be of major concern to everyone but especially those working in the brewing industry that figures from the Roofie Foundation show the majority of victims had their drinks spiked in a pub or on a licensed premises. Despite many attempts to enlist the help of members of the brewing industry and despite a large article in the licensed trades' own press, to date no company or organisation in the brewery and leisure industry has shown any interest in the work being undertaken by the Roofie Foundation.
For further information, contact:

RugbyFanatic

caseyann wrote: »

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/studentcrime/studentcrime7e.htm



*Please note these figures do notinclude drug rape incidents reported to the Northern Irish branch of the Roofie Foundation organised by The Rape Crisis & Sexual Abuse Centre, Belfast.
Table 1.2 Where the Drug was Administered*


*Note - These figures include the incidents that occurred abroad
Table 1.3 Age of Victim

• These figures show that this crime is still on the increase - yet very few of these case are ever reported to the police. The Roofie Foundation states that out of the incidents reported to them, less than 15% of victims have officially reported this crime to the police.
• Similarly, due to the difficulty in gathering evidence very few of those cases that are reported ever reach court. It also has to be noted that many survivors phone in to report events that happened to them some years ago. Either they have just come to realise what really happened, or have just found the help-line number.
• Recently it has been acknowledged that rape is the most under-reported crime in Britain and drug rape is likely to be reported even less. If we accept that only one in five rapes are ever reported and add this factor to the numbers reported on the Roofie help line, the true figure is in excess of 13,000! How many actual victims there are there that haven't reported the crime to the Roofie Foundation, the police or anyone?

The Police

The Roofie Foundation welcomes the increased awareness and sensitivity of police forces around the UK in the handling of drug related rape and sexual abuse and have assisted a number of forces, including Thames Valley, Essex, West Midlands and Northumberland forces in creating their own drink spiking awareness campaigns.
The Roofie Foundation still feels that leadership should be taken at the top and believes that the misuse of so called "date rape drugs" poses a greater threat than a drug such as ecstasy. To put things in perspective, according to official figures, there are between 1.5 - 1.75 million users of ecstasy every weekend, with a total of 111 recorded deaths in England between 1993 and 2001. The misuse of Rohypnol and other drugs such as GHB has led to over 5,500 rapes, leaving behind a trail of traumatized and shattered victims, their partners and their families.
Pubs and Breweries - Time Please

It should be of major concern to everyone but especially those working in the brewing industry that figures from the Roofie Foundation show the majority of victims had their drinks spiked in a pub or on a licensed premises. Despite many attempts to enlist the help of members of the brewing industry and despite a large article in the licensed trades' own press, to date no company or organisation in the brewery and leisure industry has shown any interest in the work being undertaken by the Roofie Foundation.
For further information, contact:

And none of these claims were tested. So they are just that, claims of being spiked by rohypnol.

It was more than likely alcohol, either intentionally or not. Putting double shots of vodka in pints etc. is still spiking and probably happens a lot more.

TheZohanS

caseyann wrote: »

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/studentcrime/studentcrime7e.htm

*Please note these figures do notinclude drug rape incidents reported to the Northern Irish branch of the Roofie Foundation organised by The Rape Crisis & Sexual Abuse Centre, Belfast.

The information is for the UK excluding Northern Ireland.

It has no bearing on the Island of Ireland.

caseyann

TheZohan wrote: »

The information is for the UK excluding Northern Ireland.

It has no bearing on the Island of Ireland.

It does Eire is in stats there

But it based on the view its on increase,I know old article but couldnt find a new one.
I am not saying it is as bad here as other places but it happens quite a bit and any bit is to much imo.

@RugbyFanatic if you read it correctly they are based on reported to hospital and diagnosed stats there.Where as women don't report it to Police and neither do men i am sure in higher bracket.

RugbyFanatic

caseyann wrote: »

@RugbyFanatic if you read it correctly they are based on reported to hospital and diagnosed stats there.

where does it say that?

The latest breakdown of British survivors of the crime of drug related rape and sexual abuse through having their drinks spiked, as reported to the Roofie Foundation via their telephone help-line is listed in table 1.0 below

TheZohanS

caseyann wrote: »

It does Eire is in stats there

You're right!

caseyann

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

where does it say that?

The latest breakdown of British survivors of the crime of drug related rape and sexual abuse through having their drinks spiked, as reported to the Roofie Foundation via their telephone help-line is listed in table 1.0 below

These figures show that this crime is still on the increase - yet very few of these case are ever reported to the police. The Roofie Foundation states that out of the incidents reported to them, less than 15% of victims have officially reported this crime to the police.

Its an assumption sorry of its been reported to hospitals,also because even when a person does not report it to the police.Without names the hospital and clinics etc.. do report how many such cases they have.I believe.

Also great thing for the rapist is (Similarly, due to the difficulty in gathering evidence very few of those cases that are reported ever reach court)

I think that writer has some neck on him to call it an urban myth.

Mike 1972

Vasco wrote: »

I was spiked before with ketamine. totally knocked the **** out of me. One of my mates told me later that he had done it for a laugh.

Find yourself some new "mates"

deisedude

ScumLord wrote: »

I have my doubts, how do you know so many drug dealers if you don't buy drugs? These aren't even your standard drug dealer because I've never met one that sells date rape drugs. Maybe ones that sell cheap Viagra but never a date rape drug. Please do show me how you can get these drugs and post prove of your purchase. This thread can be prove of this only being an experiment should you get caught.

I hope you are taking the piss.
Imagine the conversation between the OP and a garda if he was caught.
Garda: Why are you buying date rape drugs?
OP: Well because a guy on the internet told me to do it to prove my point but its fine i can show you the thread to prove i'm not a rapist

Its not going to end well is it?

Prof.Badass

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

The latest breakdown of British survivors of the crime of drug related rape and sexual abuse through having their drinks spiked, as reported to the Roofie Foundation via their telephone help-line is listed in table 1.0 below

It's a helpline. Just because people ring a helpline doesn't mean date rape occured. I'd say most of these calls were people who drank too much but don't remember anything so they are being sensible and look for advice on what to do. That would explain why only 15% end up going to the police.

The one thing that makes me wonder is the absense of deaths.
GHB+alcohol is notorious for being a very dangerous combination. Not sure what the safety margin is for rohypnol but i'd assume it's not exactly safe when mixed with alcohol either. I don't think these rapists could accurately judge the drunkeness of their victim (some people can keep it together better despite being very drunk) and i'd also assume they'd go for people who are drunk already (less chance of being detected). Also I'd expect a lot of these date rapists aren't exactly bright (some probably wouldn't even consider the possibility of a fatal overdose).

If there really was this much drugging of other people going on would there not be a lot more fatal overdoses?

caseyann

ScumLord wrote: »

I have my doubts, how do you know so many drug dealers if you don't buy drugs? These aren't even your standard drug dealer because I've never met one that sells date rape drugs. Maybe ones that sell cheap Viagra but never a date rape drug. Please do show me how you can get these drugs and post prove of your purchase. This thread can be prove of this only being an experiment should you get caught.

There's no need for these drugs when there's a ready supply of alcohol. With drink the predator doesn't need to try and sneak around he can simply offer it to his victim and she will more than likely take it. Want to knock out her memory start giving her shots, when I drink shots of tequila along with pints I can't remember a thing the next day. Why should any one with badness in their mind run the risk or put the effort into getting fancy drugs when alcohol does it better.

From what i remember good few years back some doctor in ballyfermot was done for giving out all sorts.
Junkies get all sorts and sell them on.;)

caseyann

vinylmesh wrote: »

It's a helpline. Just because people ring a helpline doesn't mean date rape occured. I'd say most of these calls were people who drank too much but don't remember anything so they are being sensible and look for advice on what to do. That would explain why only 15% end up going to the police.

The one thing that makes me wonder is the absense of deaths.
GHB+alcohol is notorious for being a very dangerous combination. Not sure what the safety margin is for rohypnol but i'd assume it's not exactly safe when mixed with alcohol either. I don't think these rapists could accurately judge the drunkeness of their victim (some people can keep it together better despite being very drunk) and i'd also assume they'd go for people who are drunk already (less chance of being detected). Also I'd expect a lot of these date rapists aren't exactly bright (some probably wouldn't even consider the possibility of a fatal overdose).

If there really was this much drugging of other people would you not expect a lot more overdoses?

From what i recall they are pros and at it all time,and some travel in packs and make it a ongoing thing.

Kipperhell

caseyann wrote: »

Oh you would be very mistaken about that and happens to men to.Alot alot of them don't come forward.
And ofc they can get their hands on it,you can get your hands on anything you want even horse tranquilizers if you know the right people.

Where did the bit about how the drug rapists travel in gangs and are pros go?

Where are you getting your vivid descriptions of what is going on?

Your links are nonsense, completely ridiculous notion to think of them as reliable. Professional medical people trained to deal with rape/sexual assault have stated on the record that it is an urban legend. You seem to wait to believe a story regardless of the actual facts.

What do you actually think the reasoning these people are lying?

People here have stated that tests have been done in the last few years and it proves something was used, yet somehow the actual official figures don't!

All your figures show is the belief is growing in strength.

Similar story used to be believed and said with conviction by people claiming to know it happen to somebody they knew

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/perfume.asp

Ahsurelookit

helimachoptor wrote: »

Honestly I dont think so.. I know plenty of girls who i've been out with and they get absolutely f**ked off their faces and then the next day their facebook says "oh i must have been spiked last night" maybe once.. but every weekend I think not. And also most of these girls are going home with their boyfriends...

You know people who update their facebook status to this?? Really?!

RugbyFanatic

caseyann wrote: »

Its an assumption sorry of its been reported to hospitals,also because even when a person does not report it to the police.Without names the hospital and clinics etc.. do report how many such cases they have.I believe.

So I was right, those figures are baseless as they are only people claiming they have been spiked with rohypnol without testing to prove it. It was probably too much alcohol as backed up by the actual official statistics despite what people ringing in a help line who weren't even tested will have you believe.

If this was a wide spread common dont you think that the website would say the official medical statistics? All hospitals keep records of those annually brought in for certain drugs and yet rohypnol is extremely rare. Scare mongering much?

Prof.Badass

RugbyFanatic wrote: »

If this was a wide spread common dont you think that the website would say the official medical statistics? All hospitals keep records of those annually brought in for certain drugs and yet rohypnol is extremely rare. Scare mongering much?

I like the fact that your location is "giggidy" .

buckieburd

Pace2008 wrote: »

Personally I've never heard of it being sold on the street, but if I asked around I could definitely get valium. Rohypnol isn't identical but it falls within the same class as diazepam and it's used recreationally as well to a lesser extent. I don't think it's completely unfeasable if you had the right contacts.

Valium would be far easier to get a hold of than Rohypnol. Valium is widely prescribed, and is often prescribed to addicts who in turn send it on. Rohypnol is around 10 times stonger than valium and is only prescribed to people with severe insomnia and doctors would be very unwilling to prescribe this to someone without very good reason, and it would only be a few tablets at a time. Apart from the 80 thousand going missing (which I would say are long out of Ireland) they would be extremely difficult to get a hold of.