The whole ubuntu thing...

Naikon

dlofnep wrote: »

Ubuntu is great. I used Linux for a few years about 10 years back. The amount of hassle finding drivers, or decent software was a big issue. I spent a week alone finding drivers for my modem. It's progressed by leaps and bounds. Fair play to the developers of Ubuntu. They've taken linux into the mainstream.

As always, there are still elitists in the Linux community who frown upon a user friendly distro of Linux. This happened years back when I installed Mandrake, and I heard the same nonsense. Then I installed Slackware, and I heard the same from the BSD elitists. People were purposely installing the most crippled, and tedious distributions of linux to just be different. I want an operating system that has great support, that is efficient & secure and that is simple to update and use.

The only reason *I* use Slackware, Gentoo, and soon Linux from scratch
is because I want a deeper knowledge of working from the command line
/scripting and understanding nuances of Linux. That is the only reason.

Giving slander to an inexperienced user is NOT on though in my book.
Every distro serves a purpose. I like the fact the UI's are not standardised
like Windows, where there is no command line by default, and you have
to put up with stupid animations and such.

The reason the *BSD community has not reached the same market share
as Linux is because they only care about making a solid server OS.

Linux has the potential to become mainstream, most other commerical
Unix flavors/*BSD/esoteric Linux distros do not. It's not their intention to be.

Eliot Rosewater

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

I watched Steve Jobs keynote address for this year. It seems they all drool over it. I mean I sometimes drool over Ubuntu (when its working for me :pac:). But drooling over a corporate entity is kind of wierd. Like when he says "shipping for $199" over some external hardware and their all drooling. I mean, thats strange.

Dartz

Naikon wrote: »

Corporate approved products are essential to tricking people.
Marketing can be a very shady game.

I forget when I became aware of 'marketing', as opposed to just seeing the ad's as cool things to buy. It's so dissapointing to see other people spouting the same Mac -v- PC twaddle as on the ad's.... despite the fact that nowadays a Mac is a PC.... and yadda yadda yadda... I ain't going to bore you with it because it's off topic.

There are those people however.... who turn GNOME into an OSX lookalike, including bootsplashes.

WHY!?

But anyway, such things aren't for here either.

9/10 however, I've found the Linux community to be pretty helpful. The people who install a distro as a badge of honour.... they tend to be the ones who insist that helpfiles are for the weak and ignorant, and if you're ignorant you don't deserve to install my distro, because then that diminshes me and my ego.

Herbal Deity

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

As has been mentioned earlier on this thread, what OS is right for you depends entirely on the task(s) you want to use it for.

As ntlbell said:

ntlbell wrote: »

Your OS of choice doesn't define you, it's not who you are, it's not a lifestyle choice.

Naikon

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I suppose Mac is better than Windows? I havent talked to Mac people much, but one guy (not a fan) who uses Mac said "it just works." Which is pretty much what Id say of an installed Ubuntu, that it does what it supposed to do.

Macs commercial support, and the fact its preinstalled and that the OS is tailored to the hardware would be an advantage. Theyre supposed to have great support. Worth spending double on the same specs? Maybe if there was no such thing as Linux. But I really dont see the problem with getting a standard Laptop and throwing Ubuntu on it, and I cant see how Mac OS would be so much better.

I watched Steve Jobs keynote address for this year. It seems they all drool over it. I mean I sometimes drool over Ubuntu (when its working for me :pac:). But drooling over a corporate entity is kind of wierd. Like when he says "shipping for $199" over some external hardware and their all drooling. I mean, thats strange.

It's simply human nature to put blind faith in corporate entities.
Most people don't need to research alternatives because they
have "faith" in that company/brand producing a product.

It's kind of like people who choose to use a simple text editor but
choose not to look at something else because there current editor
does the job/they were told to. It's all marketing tricks really...

Apple take away the hard "task" of actually having to look at
other OS's, because it's percieved as mainstream.

On the other hand, there are a very small number of cases where
people need to stick to a platform because of program availibility.
All of the software I use is cross platform. Not everybody has this
luxury though.

Eliot Rosewater

Indeed that something being discussed on the other thread. Final Cut Pro for Apple is really the standard for Film editing with orgs like BBC using it.

But Im of the opinion (and open to correction) that many computer users only use if for standard cross-platform tasks such as IM'ing, web, browsing, managing photos and music and creating documents. These tasks could be accomplished with either Mac, Windows or most variants of Linux.

Gaming would probably be the biggest thing stopping people from being able to use alternative OS's?

Naikon

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The biggest thing stopping people from being able to use alternative OS's?

I agree fully here, I only play native games like Quake Live and World of Good ect.
WINE is a crutch that will not help game application support in the long term.

The limited games selection is perfect for me, but gamers will be scolded.
It's slowly changing, but people need to insist on more Linux native games.

dlofnep

Naikon wrote: »

The only reason *I* use Slackware, Gentoo, and soon Linux from scratch
is because I want a deeper knowledge of working from the command line
/scripting and understanding nuances of Linux. That is the only reason.

I don't doubt your intentions at all. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone specific. It's good to want to understand an operating system at a lower level. But not everyone is like you, and the amount of condescending nonsense I've heard over the years from Linux users was disgusting. It's almost as if they didn't want it to become popular, so they could carve out their own niche hobby for themselves.

But with popularity has come great things - More software development, more hardware support, better interface design, and more user feedback.

I'm glad to have got back into Linux. I'm always learning something new, and it runs like a dream on my laptop - although I do find KDE and Gnome a little bloated - but nothing new there.

Slightly off topic - Just took a look at the Slackware website. It hasn't changed in a decade!

Herbal Deity

Naikon wrote: »

On the other hand, there are a very small number of cases where
people need to stick to a platform because of program availibility.
All of the software I use is cross platform. Not everybody has this
luxury though.

It's not a very small number of cases at all, it's quite a large number of cases and one of the main reasons why a linux distro simply cannot, at present, even begin to compete with Windows or Mac in any real sense.

I used to buy a lot of the rhetoric which made use of words like "corporate" and "marketing" in a negative manner, but I don't really buy it anymore. If Ubuntu had full support for a wide range of the latest games, decent music production software, decent video editing software etc. and a new laptop cost less with it on it than to buy one with Windows, you can bet that a lot of people would opt for it.

Naikon

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't doubt your intentions at all. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone specific. It's good to want to understand an operating system at a lower level. But not everyone is like you, and the amount of condescending nonsense I've heard over the years from Linux users was disgusting. It's almost as if they didn't want it to become popular, so they could carve out their own niche hobby for themselves.

But with popularity has come great things - More software development, more hardware support, better interface design, and more user feedback.

I'm glad to have got back into Linux. I'm always learning something new, and it runs like a dream on my laptop - although I do find KDE and Gnome a little bloated - but nothing new there.

Slightly off topic - Just took a look at the Slackware website. It hasn't changed in a decade!

True. More support is great for the community as we know.
My ideal future for Linux is that it will cater for all groups combined.

The nerdy image of Linux is being slowly thrashed by Ubuntu.
I feel this is a great step forward. Ubuntu is an excellent distro.

@Slackware - simplicity is key. I like the fact they are not
using any old trendy web tech to tarnish the look. Oldschool:D

dlofnep

Herbal Deity wrote: »

It's not a very small number of cases at all, it's quite a large number of cases and one of the main reasons why a linux distro simply cannot, at present, even begin to compete with Windows or Mac in any real sense.

I used to buy a lot of the rhetoric which made use of words like "corporate" and "marketing" in a negative manner, but I don't really buy it anymore. If Ubuntu had full support for a wide range of the latest games, decent music production software, decent video editing software etc. and a new laptop cost less with it on it than to buy one with Windows, you can bet that a lot of people would opt for it.

Cinelerra and lives are pretty good for video editing. You can't really compare a free, open-source application to something like Adobe Premier or Final Cut which cost €100's to buy. But for free - if you compare against the free software for Windows like Movie Maker, it blows it out of the water.

Linux is a budget man's developer. The possibilities are endless. But of course, Windows does somethings better - but for a price.

dlofnep

Naikon wrote: »

True. More support is great for the community as we know.
My ideal future for Linux is that it will cater for all groups combined.

The nerdy image of Linux is being slowly thrashed by Ubuntu.
I feel this is a great step forward. Ubuntu is an excellent distro.

@Slackware - simplicity is key. I like the fact they are not
using any old trendy web tech to tarnish the look. Oldschool:D

Oh yeah - of course I just find it amusing that some things still haven't changed. I still have Slackware 8.0 on disk here, so that shows how long ago I've used it.

Naikon

Herbal Deity wrote: »

It's not a very small number of cases at all, it's quite a large number of cases and one of the main reasons why a linux distro simply cannot, at present, even begin to compete with Windows or Mac in any real sense.

I used to buy a lot of the rhetoric which made use of words like "corporate" and "marketing" in a negative manner, but I don't really buy it anymore. If Ubuntu had full support for a wide range of the latest games, decent music production software, decent video editing software etc. and a new laptop cost less with it on it than to buy one with Windows, you can bet that a lot of people would opt for it.

It's a case of the classic chicken and the egg scenario.

Ubuntu is moving in the right direction in that when it becomes
large enough for the corporate boffins to notice, more apps will come.

I fully accept that Linux is limited when it comes to closed apps, but
this is not a fault of the community. Greater usage == more commercial support!

You can expect more applications in the future. I use closed source apps
already on Linux systems. This can only increase with Ubuntu.

@dlofnep - yep, Pat is pretty hesitant towards new stuff.

I like the joke where it states "Slackware, the best 1995 has to offer".
Works like a charm for me, but I accept it is deffo a niche distro.

dlofnep

My old Linux & Unix Collection.

Mandrake 7.2 (Bought boxed set), Slackware 8.0, FreeBSD 5.0

ntlbell

Naikon wrote: »

I laugh when people brandish the Linux community as a bunch of
useless knobs, when only a minority of such people exist.

Try dealing with the *BSD or Solaris Unix communities:pac:

I can't speak for the Solaris communites but I have a lot of exp with FreeBSD, the only difference is really they expect not to spoon feed people which is fine.

They're there to help you help yourself not just blindly answer every question, which helps everyone.

some people precive this as being arragont, others recognize it for what it and are happy to put a bit of effort in, you know, like spending 5 mins reading a man page

Naikon

ntlbell wrote: »

I can't speak for the Solaris communites but I have a lot of exp with FreeBSD, the only difference is really they expect not to spoon feed people which is fine.

They're there to help you help yourself not just blindly answer every question, which helps everyone.

some people precive this as being arragont, others recognize it for what it and are happy to put a bit of effort in, you know, like spending 5 mins reading a man page

I agree fully. I always research stuff before posting on the FreeBSD/Daemon forums.
It's just they are less tolerant of "firefox is crashing" "how do I do x" ect.

The people on both forums are very friendly provided you work a bit.
Damn, now I am paraphrasing what you said to me...

All in all, they really don't care about evangelizing the OS's which is
good. Market share really isn't a concern. My NAT box is OpenBSD 4.5
and runs solidly despite the fact OpenBSD is a small dedicated community:cool:

ntlbell

Naikon wrote: »

I agree fully. I always research stuff before posting on the FreeBSD/Daemon forums.
It's just they are less tolerant of "firefox is crashing" "how do I do x" ect.

The people on both forums are very friendly provided you work a bit.
Damn, now I am paraphrasing what you said to me...

All in all, they really don't care about evangelizing the OS's which is
good. Market share really isn't a concern. My NAT box is OpenBSD 4.5
and runs solidly despite the fact OpenBSD is a small dedicated community:cool:

Yup,

The OpenBSD community is a great example actually.

harsh but fair

Naikon

ntlbell wrote: »

Yup,

The OpenBSD community is a great example actually.

harsh but fair

What Theo de Raadt says, is NOT questioned:D

The fact they don't allow any blob drivers in the codebase is actually
pretty commendable from a security point of view. Highly usable system.

ntlbell

Naikon wrote: »

What Theo de Raadt says, is NOT questioned:D

The fact they don't allow any blob drivers in the codebase is actually
pretty commendable from a security point of view. Highly usable system.

If you look at the amount of commits that guy does, very hard to question