The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5

dowlingm

I am stupefied that this is still even up for discussion. The country is on its uppers and we're building a pleasuredome? In Two-Mile-Flippin-Borris? If the government wasn't dependent on Lowry's vote I would have just ignored this thread but unfortunately one does not know what deals were done. A major infrastructure project like this should depend on the best economic location but instead Lowry will probably be able to see it from his house, Palin-style.

Furet wrote:

Assuming every cent is borrowed, of course. These guys aren't stupid.

I can understand why Furet said this in 2009. I would hope in 2010 we'd be a bit more realistic. I would certainly hope no financial institution currently engaged in NAMA would have the idiocy to risk the PR nightmare that would be this thing going belly up.

Amtmann

I am still in favour of the developers taking this as far as they can.

Firstly, I've said my bit about the location. I think it's a good one.

Second, I do not think the development is "inappropriate", i.e., it's not a housing development and it's not a vast retail park.

Third, it will consist of vast areas of open, green space.

Fourth, no public money should be used to fund it.

Fifth, I believe that a concert area, golf course, race course and hotel are very much in keeping with the "culture" of Tipperary, and that this makes the development appropriate, at least conceptually. Gambling is part and parcel of racing, and while I find the idea of a casino personally distasteful, I do have a very Las Vegas image of what a casino is.

I say let the plans develop, and let's see what happens. We are still far from the construction phase. I may yet turn against this proposal, but not today.

dowlingm

Ireland isn't short of racecourses and it sure as hell is not short of hotels. This is a relocation of the Phoenix Park Racecourse proposal which was basically a trojan horse for a casino. Living in Ontario I can tell you the implications of going the casino route bear serious examination.

Judgement Day

This will never fly. I can't understand anybody having Michael Lowry involved with them with his track record - Ben Dunne, Horgan's Quay etc.etc but then of course he is one of the pillars propping up this awful government.......

Stinicker

I think we should go the whole hog on this and legalise Prostitution in Ireland's very own Las Vegas. (Where it is actually illegal!). Legal brothels in Two-Mile-Borris anyone? (I am actually being serious here btw!)

D'Peoples Voice

Stinicker wrote: »

I think we should go the whole hog on this and legalise Prostitution in Ireland's very own Las Vegas. (Where it is actually illegal!). Legal brothels in Two-Mile-Borris anyone? (I am actually being serious here btw!)

its about the only riding facility they'll see down in Two-mile_borris

Amtmann

Stinicker wrote: »

I think we should go the whole hog on this and legalise Prostitution in Ireland's very own Las Vegas. (Where it is actually illegal!). Legal brothels in Two-Mile-Borris anyone? (I am actually being serious here btw!)

Well, that's more suited to the Humanities forum to be honest. My own opinion is yes, it should be legal and regulated. But this thread is about the proposed Tipperary Venue's planning and construction, not prostitution. Take it here perhaps...

bg07

Are any of the things that they are proposing to construct such as a racetrack and a casino anymore infrastructure than a brothel would be.

Amtmann

bg07 wrote: »

Are any of the things that they are proposing to construct such as a racetrack and a casino anymore infrastructure than a brothel would be.

Civic infrastructure along the lines of Croke Park and Lansdowne Road are part of the proposal, in addition to attendant changes to M8 junction 5 plus repercussions for the proposed N62 Thurles Bypass. These make the topic worthy of discussion here. Brothels not so much.

Aidan1

Civic infrastructure along the lines of Croke Park and Lansdowne Road are part of the proposal

Sorry Furet, but this proposed 'infrastructure', has all the hallmarks of a planning sweetener, or trojan horse. Once the licence for a casino, or horse racing venue has been obtained, odds are all of the public good type elements will be delayed, then postponed, then quietly forgotten about (with the developer pleading force majeure if ever taken to court). This was a regular occurence throughout the last 10 years. There are numerous examples in practically every town in Ireland, I'm afraid. The uncertain legal ability of local authoritys to actually compel people to adhere to planning conditions is one issue, the fact that Councillors are often supportive of any development, at whatever cost, is another.

The fact that Hotels are still being proposed is very strange, for example, given the fact that we're probably 30/40% over capacity nationally. Like I said near the start of the thread, Tipp is the ideal place for an equestrian centre. Adding a Las Vegas style centre to that turns the whole thing into a plot from a bad 1980s Oirish film.

Amtmann

I suppose what lends the project credibility for me is that the idea of using the venue as a new equestrian centre is well established. The current owners of track near Limerick Junction have been in talks with Quirke, and have acknowledged that their facilities are inadequate. They support the new racecourse, and numerous high profile trainers were at the launch in the Horse and Jockey hotel last autumn. Thus I'm quite sanguine. You do make excellent points (as usual) and at the very least this thread might serve as a case-study of how proposals such as this can 'veer', shall we say, away from what was originally promised.

dowlingm

Does this plan include rezoning Thurles Racecourse to housing from some form of amenity designation? Who owns the Racecourse at the moment?

spacetweek

Only hearing about this now and I'm in favour.

This proposal feels much better to me than 2002's Vega City in north county Dublin. Sporting facilities generate huge amounts of repeat visits and the horse racing course is simply a replacement of an existing one in Thurles - and therefore already has a customer base. It can't fail.

The concert venue sounds oversized but I agree that facilities for concerts are lacking outside the coastal cities.

The casino and high-roller demographic is too reliant on gambling being legalised (how likely?) and on those high-rollers taking Ireland seriously as a gambling destination - we've no history of that and would need to build the industry from stratch. This element of the development mightn't make it to the end, but the rest will.

We're over capacity on hotels but not in that area. Empty hotels in Cork or Dublin don't mean anything to someone trying to stay the night in Thurles.

The only thing I'd say is that maybe Portlaoise would be a better location due to the M7 proximity - as other posters have point out, the M8 junction would need to be modified and at least the northeast quadrant of an N62 Thurles bypass would be needed.

MrMicra wrote: »

gambling addictions for Irish people.

Banning everything on the grounds that people can't be trusted with it is a sign of an immature society.

dowlingm

Ireland is a small country so travel times are not onerous. Does it REALLY matter that facilities for concerts are "lacking outside of the coastal cities", given that Thurles is 90 mins from Cork and Limerick? How many concert venues are required before they cannibalise each other by offering lower and lower hosting fees, given the market can only absorb so many events during a recession which is unlikely to be short, and the main demographic for which being the one most likely to emigrate in the next few years?

spacetweek - there ain't no votes in Portlaoise for Lowry. No chance.

dugganm07

This reminds me of the Burswood facility in Perth Australia. Ive been there a number of times and its fantastic. The only problem i have with the proposed facility is its location. But if it is marketed properly worldwide it could attract a lot of visitors. I think it would be a great place for stag parties and so on. Here is a loom at the burswood facility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burswood_Entertainment_Complex

jonnybravo

dowlingm wrote: »

Does this plan include rezoning Thurles Racecourse to housing from some form of amenity designation? Who owns the Racecourse at the moment?

Racecourse is owned by the Moloneys in Thurles. Quirke is supposed to have reached agreement with them to close the racecourse in Thurles Town and transfer the race meetings to the Venue. I haven't heard anything about housing being built there but judging by the current glut of housing in Thurles there won't be much demand for any for a long time.

jonnybravo

Anyone know what the rules are regarding Casinos at the moment in Ireland? I know that there are a few Casinos operating under members only situations in Dublin but could this system work in any Casino or is it limited?

I personally cannot see this happening unless the Casino gets the go ahead because Horse-racing, golf courses, concerts etc etc won't be profitable enough to get a reasonable rate of return on the huge investment that it is going to take.

marathont

jonnybravo wrote: »

Anyone know what the rules are regarding Casinos at the moment in Ireland? I know that there are a few Casinos operating under members only situations in Dublin but could this system work in any Casino or is it limited?

I personally cannot see this happening unless the Casino gets the go ahead because Horse-racing, golf courses, concerts etc etc won't be profitable enough to get a reasonable rate of return on the huge investment that it is going to take.

I dont know the rules, but casinos seem to be a lot more common in the last few years. Theres 2 in Wexford town, They are members only, but i think you get free chips to the value of the membership fee (€10 or something), so its membership is really just a formality.

jonnybravo

marathont wrote: »

I dont know the rules, but casinos seem to be a lot more common in the last few years. Theres 2 in Wexford town, They are members only, but i think you get free chips to the value of the membership fee (€10 or something), so its membership is really just a formality.

Yeah I was thinking that the membership was only a way to get around the rules but I'm wondering would they be able to do it on a large scale basis as invisaged in Tipp or would the law have to change to facilate the casino.

If the law has to change then that'll probably be Lowry's key role. I doubt Lowry would have put his name behind it if the law has to be changed and the government won't do it.

Amtmann

This is the proposed road network improvement to M8 junction 5 and the R639 to facilitate the development. It's severely underpowered for a large-scale event.


I've been looking through the various objection documents lodged against the Tipperary Venue. The one from the NRA is impressive:

1/8


2/8


3/8


4/8


5/8


6/8


7/8


8/8


A decision is due mid-November.

munchkin_utd

thats a long document from the NRA and on my laptop very hard to read
can you summarise in a few sentences what they dont like???

Amtmann

munchkin_utd wrote: »

thats a long document from the NRA and on my laptop very hard to head
can you summarise in a few sentences what they dont like???

1. The NRA does not believe that an improvement to J5 is the best option. They would favour using junctions 4 and 6 instead.

2. There is an error in the developer's traffic number forecasts for J5 if that were to be used. The developer has underestimated the number of vehicles and has misjudged the nature of likely traffic movements.

3. The developer has over-estimated the likely usage of public transport by Tipperary Venue patrons.

4. The developer has not given enough consideration to the overall affect of the Tipperary Venue on national roads.

5. The developer's methodology in forecasting traffic movements is flawed, and has not taken into account the difference in the behaviour displayed by incoming traffic (which tends to arrive over a prolonged period) and outgoing traffic (which tends to depart a venue simultaneously, causing serious queueing).

6. The developer has not considered the deleterious affect that traffic queues would have if and when they spill over onto the M8 mainline.

7. The NRA is concerned about the proposed helicopter landing site and its possible impact on the safety of M8 users.

8. The NRA is prepared to discuss the matter with all concerned but, on the basis of the information submitted thusfar, must object to the traffic management plan.

munchkin_utd

I would tend to agree with the NRA ......
BUT
This development is not as if its the south ring in cork or that, in that its not adding pressure to any one of the nations already most chronically congested roads.

This is the one of the quietest areas of the irish motorway network and is only due to be under pressure a few hours every few months.

I dont see the slip roads being adequate for those leaving an event, they may congested for a few hours, but who cares.
Evil roundabouts will reap their revenge. Event goers will have a nightmare.
Nevertheless, the ones at the event will suffer and not the normal motorist!!! You will still be able to zoom from Dubin to Cork in no time.
Happy days!!!

So I'd be one to say let it progress and let the event atendees suffer. The greater good still will not be damaged. (thanks to the ineptitude of the local traffic management)

Amtmann

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I would tend to agree with the NRA ......
BUT
This development is not as if its the south ring in cork or that, in that its not adding pressure to any one of the nations already most chronically congested roads.

This is the one of the quietest areas of the irish motorway network and is only due to be under pressure a few hours every few months.

I dont see the slip roads being adequate for those leaving an event, they may congested for a few hours, but who cares.
Evil roundabouts will reap their revenge. Event goers will have a nightmare.
Nevertheless, the ones at the event will suffer and not the normal motorist!!! You will still be able to zoom from Dubin to Cork in no time.
Happy days!!!

So I'd be one to say let it progress and let the event atendees suffer. The greater good still will not be damaged. (thanks to the ineptitude of the local traffic management)

I think if the NRA can come up with a better option or, rather, make the developer come up with a better option and pay for it as well, then that should be what happens. Several hundred cars queueing on the M8 and clogging up one lane isn't acceptable, particularly when it's all to effectively make a profit for Quirke and his investors. I say if he wants to use the M8, fine. But he'd better make sure he doesn't congest the road. If he can spend who knows how much on a replica White House, he can build a proper access to the M8 too.

By the way, the proposed retail section of the development has been severley cut back so as not to undermine the viability of shops in Thurles and Cashel.

beagga

I see in the further info they have summitted (thanks for the link Furet) that this is a proposed road layout

Amtmann

They have a free-flowing lane appended to the southbound off-ramp if you look closely, but no corresponding one on the northbound on-ramp, which seems to be one of the many things that's prompted the NRA to object. On a "major event" day (defined as 15,000 visitors), junction 5 could never cope, let alone the little N75 to Thurles. The NRA did call for a Traffic Impact Assessment to take account of the N62 (Thurles to Athlone) road as well. Thurles town itself cannot cope with the regular volumes of traffic that this would bring in my opinion. A standard 2 lane bypass is planned for the N62 around Thurles and is at the route selection phase (with a decision due in December or January).
Also, the Tipp Venue is essentially appropriating the R639. Still, North Tipp Co Co seem all in favour, and as they (I think) have jurisdiction over the road, it shouldn't be a problem.

DWCommuter

The greatest load of bollox I have ever read.

There is no need for it and it stinks of rural/local business interests trying to create a utopian event centre in a part of Ireland that doesn't need/want or even fully understand it. Obviously conceived during a time when any blade of grass in Ireland was fair game for any madcap scheme.

The catholic church did this crap with Knock airport 30 years ago. It was built and now has more western birds heading off to the sun for a casual shag than it has holy pilgrimmes jetting in to chew the ass off the shrine in Knock.

Las Vegas is successful for a reason. Maybe Dr. Quirkey should study the history of WHY.

I'll carry on laughing.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Note to mods: Please feel free to edit as appropriate.

Squeaksoutloud

I see the Tipperary Venue has been given the go-ahead:

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/business/460m-cultural-and-leisure-centre-gets-go-ahead-in-tipperary-480006.html

yermanoffthetv

Tipp Venue on the sixone news tonight http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1083853 Jump to 44 minutes for the report.

michaelm

Did I take this up right from the news report this evening?

(a) 80% of the visitors to the venue will be from overseas

(b) The casino will not go ahead until there is legislitive change

(c) Work will commence in the Spring

I am assuming the overseas visitors will only travel for the casino, it is unlikely they will jet in for racing - either dog or horse. I don't get it!