The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5

Aidan1

Simple really, North Tipp CC have just handed the developer a huge lever to use on the Govt to force a change in the law on the basis that 'why is the Minister holding up this valuable development that'll give loads o jobs'.

As I may have mentioned before, the other investments are all contingent on the casino being built - they have to be, given the scale. The 'grassroots campaign' to grant a licence will start shortly.

Amtmann

I attended the public meeting in the Horse and Jockey this evening. A seriously impressive presentation was given by a very articulate man who spoke about the design and planning issues. Much of the focus was on the horse racing circuit AND the equestrian centre, which are two different things. A man from the horse sport industry (different to the racing industry) claimed the Tipp Venue (TV) would allow the country to plug into aspects of the global horse industry we've never even been close to. He mentioned a horse event that took place in Aachen in 2006 worth almost €250 million to the local economy there.

The Hoban Memorial was discussed too in a manner which actually managed to make it sound the polar opposite of tacky.

Quirke has recently bought even more land and, apparently, more applications for unspecified other buildings will be made in due course.

Michael Lowery was feted. He gave a typical, vague talk about casino licensing, and emphasised that aspects of the TV can be built - and will be totally viable - even without the legislation.

Works will start on delivering the necessary infrastructure before the buildings, but no timescale was mentioned.

And, most importantly, delicious sandwiches were served after business had concluded.

annfield1978

the guy giving the presentation is the same as the voiceover on the youtube link mentioned above

beagga

Of course work will start as soon as an bord pleanala are finished because dont we all know that someone will have a problem with a development this size and hold it up for at least another year or so.

DWCommuter

A typical and historically proven, recession based proposal the size of dinosaur ****e.

Phoenix Park casinos and stadiums. Clondalkin stadiums with Wimbledon FC playing there. Eircom Park. Blah blah blah etc etc. They were in a city. This kip is in the middle of nowhere.

Mr. Duggan built his Millstreet empire under the radar. Mr. Reynolds gave him a Eurovision because he was a "party person". A few years were milked from it until the rest of the world realised it was a no mans land. End of Millstreet.

This will come to absolutely nothing.

Cookiemunster

beagga wrote: »

Of course work will start as soon as an bord pleanala are finished because dont we all know that someone will have a problem with a development this size and hold it up for at least another year or so.

I agree. I reckon the NRA for one will go to ABP as per the objection Furet posted in post #81.

jonnybravo

I can't see the Planning Issues stopping this. It might delay them but I don't think there is any issue that could stop it completely or hold it up for years. I think the two major obstacles to this going ahead are;

1) Lack of change to gambling laws;
2) Lack of funding to build this. I read that Quirke has put in e30m of his own money into this so far and is willing to put in another e40m to start the works but there's still a big wad of money to be found.


I do hope this goes ahead as Tipperary and Thurles in particular is a dead zone for jobs and this will only get worse when the mines close in a few years.

munchkin_utd

jonnybravo wrote: »

I can't see the Planning Issues stopping this. It might delay them but I don't think there is any issue that could stop it completely or hold it up for years. I think the two major obstacles to this going ahead are;

1) Lack of change to gambling laws;<snip>

not a problem

Mr Lowry the local independent TD is almost part of the consortium, and now that McDaid has resigned from the Dail, he along with Healy Rae is keeping the government in office.

The government might be extra nice to him and change all manner of laws regarding casinos/ gambling to ensure that the budget goes through next month :rolleyes:

Stinicker

I don't get how this is going to work, How are they going to get the tourists in to begin with? Cork and Shannon Airports are both an hour and a half drive (give or take). For the likes of this place to take off you need access to an Airport (like Las Vegas) and have it well served by a mix of low cost carriers (Ryanair) and some long Haul carriers to bring in the longhaul tourist.

This has to be the biggest load of hogwash I have ever heard of really, non-one is interested in Horse racing in Ireland bar an elite of say 100,000 people, gambling, nite clubs, relaxed licencing laws, adult entertainment these things are appealing to the mass market and they could make a go of it if they situated it close an airport and play it up with the Oirsh reputation for drinking partying hard. Horse racing on the other hand - how boring can you get!

L1011

Somehow getting a 6am licence for nightclubs would be a guaranteed revenue bringer, as people would bus to it from very long distances, as well as rental revenue from pretty much every dance music promoter on the island.

Anyone who's familiar with the bussing of vast volumes of people to the few long-opening (2:30 being very late!) clubs in Northern Ireland could see a comparable situation.

jonnybravo

So Lowry has held the country to ransom to get the law changed. Anyone else think that this stink?


I've no problem with the idea of the venue I just think that changes in law shouldn't be rushed just because one local TD has the power to do so. The changes in this law have far wider repercussions than just this venture.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/mavericks-force-cowen-to-do-budget-vote-deal-2450516.html

JupiterKid

This entire plan stinks. The White House replica in particular smacks of absolute tastelessness and tackiness of the highest order - cringeworthy.:(

The race course element and other aspects are just a Trojan Horse (no pun intended!) to get the casino built - that is what Lowry and Quirke really want. I hope that this farce is rejected by ABP as it should be.

Have we learned nothing from the construction and property bubble?

DWCommuter

JupiterKid wrote: »

Have we learned nothing from the construction and property bubble?

Obviously not. Just look at one of the posts above about jobs. Ireland is a whore and will lie back and take it from any kerb crawling twat promising jobs. The sad part is that people accept it.

For the record, Dr Quirkeys is a sad little empire. A shameful excuse for a business and it makes the dirtiest little kip in Blackpool look like las vegas.

marathont

Furet wrote: »

A seriously impressive presentation was given by a very articulate man who spoke about the design and planning issues.

I cant help but think of this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

ClovenHoof

JupiterKid wrote: »

This entire plan stinks. The White House replica in particular smacks of absolute tastelessness and tackiness of the highest order - cringeworthy.:(

This aspect just proves how fantasitcally gombeenish the whole thing is. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

What is happening in ireland right now is psychological mealdown of the ruling gombeen class who have destroyed this country. Rather than hold their hands up and allow common sense to save the day - a sort of Fianna Fail Bunker mentality has set in were all kinds of crackpot schemes, sorry I "schemes boyo!" like this and the one for Chinese Airport in the Midlands will be branded about.

I expect much worse to come. A city dedicated to the Virgin Mary in Mayo, a giant skyscraper in the shape of Daniel O'Donnell for Kincasslagh and one off houses to be built on the grass dividers between motorways and casio on the Hill of Tara.

Stay tuned things are going to get much worse. These insane gombeens are like rats back into a corner and know no other way to live other than to go deeper in their sheer bufoonery.

D.L.R.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

This aspect just proves how fantasitcally gombeenish the whole thing is. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

What is happening in ireland right now is psychological mealdown of the ruling gombeen class who have destroyed this country. Rather than hold their hands up and allow common sense to save the day - a sort of Fianna Fail Bunker mentality has set in were all kinds of crackpot schemes, sorry I "schemes boyo!" like this and the one for Chinese Airport in the Midlands will be branded about.

I expect much worse to come. A city dedicated to the Virgin Mary in Mayo, a giant skyscraper in the shape of Daniel O'Donnell for Kincasslagh and one off houses to be built on the grass dividers between motorways and casio on the Hill of Tara.

Stay tuned things are going to get much worse. These insane gombeens are like rats back into a corner and know no other way to live other than to go deeper in their sheer bufoonery.

Couldn't agree more. Cornered animal.

jonnybravo

ClovenHoof wrote: »

This aspect just proves how fantasitcally gombeenish the whole thing is. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.

What is happening in ireland right now is psychological mealdown of the ruling gombeen class who have destroyed this country. Rather than hold their hands up and allow common sense to save the day - a sort of Fianna Fail Bunker mentality has set in were all kinds of crackpot schemes, sorry I "schemes boyo!" like this and the one for Chinese Airport in the Midlands will be branded about.

I expect much worse to come. A city dedicated to the Virgin Mary in Mayo, a giant skyscraper in the shape of Daniel O'Donnell for Kincasslagh and one off houses to be built on the grass dividers between motorways and casio on the Hill of Tara.

Stay tuned things are going to get much worse. These insane gombeens are like rats back into a corner and know no other way to live other than to go deeper in their sheer bufoonery.

I think its a bit strong to say that its a crackpot scheme. Granted the White House might be a bit tacky but the rest of the scheme has a lot of potential merit to it (jobs, tax revenue, tourism). It also has the potential to work. A lot of countries have a functioning casino industry. A lot of money has already been spent on this idea and as it has the backing of a lot of high profile people (Aidan O'Brien, John Magner, HRI and probably a lot more I can't think of).

Whether Ireland wants to legislate for casinos and the problems associated with it is another question. As with any large scale scheme the benefits should be weighed up against the negatives and a decision based on the facts taken.

citycentre

Why all the hate for the White House replica? If you ask me it's quite an interesting idea for a tourist attraction to anchor the scheme. The White House was after all designed by an Irishman, James Hoban and legend has it that he based the original design on that of a country house he'd been working on under the employment of Gandon before he emigrated to the USA.

The replica will be completely historically accurate as to what the White House would have looked like upon its completion which was actually quite different to how it looks now - not painted white for starters and much more austere and without the semicircular portico on the rear elevation. It has the full support of the White House Historical Association who I doubt would endorse anything that would be tacky or tarnish theirs or the White Houses reputation and as such you can be certain that no corners will be cut in it's execution.

Its the kind of thing foreign tourists will lap up, particularly the Americans of course, and whilst not to my taste I think it's a very interesting idea and deserving of support. Certainly better than another giant ferris wheel or some other meaningless tat.

The rest of the scheme is interesting although the enormous hotel building looks particularly ugly and under-designed and theres a lot of "blobby" teletubby type stuff going on which I feel could look very dated very quickly. However fair play for someone having a bit of vision in these times. I look forward to visiting it in future.

Road-Hog

citycentre wrote: »

Why all the hate for the White House replica? If you ask me it's quite an interesting idea for a tourist attraction to anchor the scheme. The White House was after all designed by an Irishman, James Hoban and legend has it that he based the original design on that of a country house he'd been working on under the employment of Gandon before he emigrated to the USA.

The replica will be completely historically accurate as to what the White House would have looked like upon its completion which was actually quite different to how it looks now - not painted white for starters and much more austere and without the semicircular portico on the rear elevation. It has the full support of the White House Historical Association who I doubt would endorse anything that would be tacky or tarnish theirs or the White Houses reputation and as such you can be certain that no corners will be cut in it's execution.

Its the kind of thing foreign tourists will lap up, particularly the Americans of course, and whilst not to my taste I think it's a very interesting idea and deserving of support. Certainly better than another giant ferris wheel or some other meaningless tat.

The rest of the scheme is interesting although the enormous hotel building looks particularly ugly and under-designed and theres a lot of "blobby" teletubby type stuff going on which I feel could look very dated very quickly. However fair play for someone having a bit of vision in these times. I look forward to visiting it in future.

Surely there is something for our far more ancient past that could form the centre piece of this development...........I can't exactly see the attraction for Americans of coming to Ireland to view something for their own backyard?

Amtmann

citycentre wrote: »

The replica will be completely historically accurate as to what the White House would have looked like upon its completion which was actually quite different to how it looks now - not painted white for starters and much more austere and without the semicircular portico on the rear elevation. It has the full support of the White House Historical Association who I doubt would endorse anything that would be tacky or tarnish theirs or the White Houses reputation and as such you can be certain that no corners will be cut in it's execution.

That's an important point actually. And the casino won't be in the replica. Nor will the casino be a Las Vegas style venue either. The impression I get is that it will be a strictly black tie affair.

Road-Hog wrote: »

Surely there is something for our far more ancient past that could form the centre piece of this development...........I can't exactly see the attraction for Americans of coming to Ireland to view something for their own backyard?

Well, the concert hall is designed to be very like Newgrange. The horse and greyhound spectator stands will be nicely integrated into the landscape.

Tech3

A project of this magnitude needs to be built near a huge urban area (Dublin only) in order to make it worthwhile. I cant see how people will travel to the middle of North Tipperary to go to a casino/racecourse be it might be just off the M8 motorway.

Anyway at least it will provide a few much needed jobs in the short term around an unemployed blackspot.

ClovenHoof

How many people reading the mod comments on thread would consider being invaded by North Korea to be liberation?

ClovenHoof

D.L.R. wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. Cornered animal.

We are at a threshold moment. Either the Gombeen Ireland dies now or Ireland as a nation, people and culture is over.


If that White House replica is built we might as well all commit collective suicide. We have no purpose as a people, society and nation.

Amtmann

ClovenHoof wrote: »

How many people reading the mod comments on thread would consider being invaded by North Korea to be liberation?

Excuse me?

ClovenHoof wrote: »

We are at a threshold moment. Either the Gombeen Ireland dies now or Ireland as a nation, people and culture is over.


If that White House replica is built we might as well all commit collective suicide. We have no purpose as a people, society and nation.

Seriously, please dispense with the rhetoric.

yermanoffthetv

Road-Hog wrote: »

Surely there is something for our far more ancient past that could form the centre piece of this development...........I can't exactly see the attraction for Americans of coming to Ireland to view something for their own backyard?

Think about it...perfect replica of the white house,tax breaks for the film industry in Ireland. Film set anyone??? Frost-nixon, west wing, thirteen days ect...potential is huge! the hotel will be full from film makers alone (im not being a smart ass either, I genuinely think this could be an unforseen oppertunity)

Amtmann

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Think about it...perfect replica of the white house,tax breaks for the film industry in Ireland. Film set anyone??? Frost-nixon, west wing, thirteen days ect...potential is huge! the hotel will be full from film makers alone (im not being a smart ass either, I genuinely think this could be an unforseen oppertunity)

No, the replica is of the White House as it was originally. It won't really resemble how the White House looks today.

yermanoffthetv

Furet wrote: »

No, the replica is of the White House as it was originally. It won't really resemble how the White House looks today.

From a quick google for images to compare, its not far off, sure it doesnt have the ancillary buildings but close enough! I still think the film set ideas a runner.

DWCommuter

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

From a quick google for images to compare, its not far off, sure it doesnt have the ancillary buildings but close enough! I still think the film set ideas a runner.

It wont be a film set. Trust me. I work in the industry and this plan will not provide a facility that suits. So let that one go.

As for the horse racing and greyhound aspect, let me put some perspective on things. Both horse racing and greyhound racing are struggling at the moment. Provincial tracks are knee deep in debt and the likes of leopardstown racecourse in a huge area, are suffering from declining numbers. Admission prices have plummeted. Furthermore the Tipp area doesn't need another track unless others are closing and heading for Quirkeys bog emporium. Either way this idea is still bonkers and its aspirations are way off the mark.

But others can disagree if they like. I'd like to hear more evidence as to why this project can work in terms of a casino, horse racing and dogs bearing in mind the existing facilities. (Casino excepted.)

Amtmann

DWCommuter wrote: »

But others can disagree if they like. I'd like to hear more evidence as to why this project can work in terms of a casino, horse racing and dogs bearing in mind the existing facilities. (Casino excepted.)

Unfortunately I don't know enough about either industry to answer that, but I do know that Thurles greyhound stadium and Tipperary horsetrack are both to close on foot of this. Clonmel greyhound stadium is a haybarn from a facilities point of view and may close too. I've also heard that the proposed horsetrack at the TV is in a different league to any we currently have, and that the equestrian centre itself is a massive draw that will tap into the global horsey crowd. I'm sure there's far more detailed info out there somewhere, though not necessarily online. In short, bar the dogs, I don't think that TV's target patrons are intended to be predominantly Irish. It's an international venue rather than an Irish one.

jonnybravo

DWCommuter wrote: »

But others can disagree if they like. I'd like to hear more evidence as to why this project can work in terms of a casino, horse racing and dogs bearing in mind the existing facilities. (Casino excepted.)

The reality of the project is that it will not go ahead without the Casino. With a Casino it would definitely be a viable project. New Zeland with roughly the same population of Ireland has a viable casino industry. The largest operator has yearly profits of NZD100m (e60m) (http://business.scoop.co.nz/2010/08/17/sky-city-profit-drops-on-auckland-tax/).

The other facilities would be used to augment the casino income and bring visitors to the facilities. The horse racing track includes an all weather track (think there is only one other in Ireland - Dundalk). This would replace the one closed in Thurles (not sure if the Tipperary race track is closing too?). The greyhound track will replace the one in Thurles. There is no equivalant large scale equestrian centre besides the RDS that I can think of.

With these facilities and the Casino then it definitely has the potential to make money. Whether it is a worthwhile project or not is debatable (as there are alot of associated problems with Gambling) but to call it a "Gombeen" project with no back up IMO is wrong.