Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5
Options
Comments
-
if that White House replica is built we might as well all commit collective suicide.
The original White House was designed by an IrishmanA project of this magnitude needs to be built near a huge urban area (Dublin only) in order to make it worthwhile.
Yes, let Dublin provide all the jobs.....
The main backer of this project is from Tipperary and wants to provide employment in this area.
If I was ever rich and had a good idea to back, I'd like to back it in my home area, I would think you may do the same
It's private money.
If a businessman from Dublin wants to launch a similar project let them do it.
But then I look at the empty proporties on O'Connell St in Dublin and wonder why they can't be developed?
Someone here is taking a risk and showing a bit of vision and I'm reading posts on gombeens and just sitting back and knocking them0 -
A project of this magnitude needs to be built near a huge urban area (Dublin only) in order to make it worthwhile. I cant see how people will travel to the middle of North Tipperary to go to a casino/racecourse be it might be just off the M8 motorway.
Anyway at least it will provide a few much needed jobs in the short term around an unemployed blackspot.
Have to disagree with you there, Foxwoods the largest casino in the world is located in a small town.
There are dozens of casino's in Canada and U.S.A where people travel hours to get to as there in rural areas.
People will travel to large casinos no matter where they are, its a exception to the rule really.0 -
Wonder what impact the consultation paper Options for Regulating Gambling will have on the proposed development. Only sketchy details included in the news reports but Dermot Ahern did say that there will no changes to regulation during the course of this government. I can't see anything happening re the development until they are certain about the Casino getting the go ahead.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1222/breaking54.html0 -
More information given here http://www.irishexaminer.ie/ireland/report-bets-on-green-light-for-casino-resorts-140236.html
Looks like they'll approve legislation for 2/3 super casinos. Presume if one of them is in Tipperary the other one would be in Dublin. Would seem like its only a matter of time before legislation is introduction. Potential to earn a lot of tax from casinos. Suggested taxes are included below."A one-off licence fee of €1,000 per table and €500 per machine apply, as well as a tax of €2 for each entry, paid to the local authority, and a betting tax to the exchequer".
0 -
Advertisement
-
Existing laws regulating gambling in the State are not fit for purpose, Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said today.
the purpose being keeping Mr Lowry happy. Look, it may look loony, it may be a collossal white elephant, but it may not. the most important thing is that it should be Quirkes gamble, using his money and his borrowings, and no-one elses.
Of course, seeing how the NRA managed to make such a balls up of keeping the M7/8 going these past few weeks, I would advocate that our soon to be found tourists for this place jet direct into it for it surely needs a privat airfield all of its own.0 -
Heads up.
This development is the subject of tonight's Primetime, starting on RTE1 now.
EDIT: It'll be the second item.0 -
First comment has to be that the guy who was head of the gambling commission has the weirdest head Ive ever seen!
Seriously though, I love casinos, specifically playing poker and the fact that 2,000 jobs would be created is a major plus....
However this project reeks of dodginess, especially with Lowrys involvement...don't know much about the Quirke's apart from what ive read in a few articles...obviously they're in it for the money, but they seem to run their existing businesses well.
All in all, I cant really see this going ahead..its just too big a leap in this country I reckon.0 -
Anything associated with Lowry (the Liam Lawlor/Ray Burke of FG) is tainted before it even gets started. There's a casino in the Isle of Man http://www.palacehotelcasino.co.im/ which is far more accessible and cosmopolitan than Two-mile Borris. Despite it being in operation for years I don't think that it has been exactly coining it in and the number of jobs is insignificant. Of course this is Ireland and we can do everything bigger and better than everywhere else.......:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Interesting the way Quirke's operation in O'Connell Street appears to operating in breach of the law according to Prime Time - obviously another pillar of the establishment.0 -
Judgement Day wrote: »Anything associated with Lowry (the Liam Lawlor/Ray Burke of FG) is tainted before it even gets started. There's a casino in the Isle of Man http://www.palacehotelcasino.co.im/ which is far more accessible and cosmopolitan than Two-mile Borris. Despite it being in operation for years I don't think that it has been exactly coining it in and the number of jobs is insignificant. Of course this is Ireland and we can do everything bigger and better than everywhere else.......:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Interesting the way Quirke's operation in O'Connell Street appears to operating in breach of the law according to Prime Time - obviously another pillar of the establishment.
Well as the guy from the former commission on gaming said, it's up to the Gardaí to carry out the law. However in general bylaws are poorly enforced in this country. We all recall when Galway city council banned drinking in public. If anything "Bucky Plaza" started getting bigger crowds.
As for the proposal. Why do we need something as tacky as a replica white house? Interesting that they say we have twice as many race courses per head of population here as they do in the UK.0 -
Advertisement
-
Judgement Day wrote: »Anything associated with Lowry (the Liam Lawlor/Ray Burke of FG) is tainted before it even gets started. There's a casino in the Isle of Man http://www.palacehotelcasino.co.im/ which is far more accessible and cosmopolitan than Two-mile Borris. Despite it being in operation for years I don't think that it has been exactly coining it in and the number of jobs is insignificant. Of course this is Ireland and we can do everything bigger and better than everywhere else.......:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Interesting the way Quirke's operation in O'Connell Street appears to operating in breach of the law according to Prime Time - obviously another pillar of the establishment.
How in God's name can something on an Island like the Isle of Man be more accesible.
There may be an argument against the Casino but inaccessibly is not it: North Tipp is close to both Dublin, Cork, Limerick, even waterford.0 -
Well one of the industry experts last night said he reckon the Casino would need at least 20k visitors a week to sustain itself. There's no way it's depending on a domestic Irish market. In comparison direct flights to Isle man (Manx Airlines) from the following already exist
- Aberdeen
- Belfast
- Bergerac
- Birmingham
- Blackpool
- Bristol
- Brussels
- Cardiff
- Doncaster
- Dublin
- Dusseldorf
- East Midlands
- Edinburgh
- Exeter
- Frankfurt
- Geneva
- Glasgow
- Gloucester
- Guernsey
- Hamburg
- Hannover
- Inverness
- Jersey
- La Rochelle
- Leeds
- Limoges
- Liverpool
- London
- Manchester
- Milan
- Newcastle
- Newquay
- Norwich
- Paris
- Southampton
- Stuttgart
There's considerably larger population living within an hour of Man then there is within an hour of Two-Mile Borris!0 -
Dublin to the Isle of Man is 25 minutes - just long enough for the stewardess to spill the coffee over you - and no matter how you transform TMB I don't see it ever being in the same league. I wonder will Ben Dunne be involved in building 'The White House' like he was with Lowry's extension?
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/sep/19/dunne-lowry-and-haughey-a-scandal-that-beat-them-a/0 -
I don't know much about casinos but at the moment I'm living across the road from one of the biggest in the southern hemisphere - Crown in Melbourne. And I don't see how it would be economical or sustainable to build something similar in two-mile-borris (a place I also briefly lived near). Crown has multiple highway entrances, is served my several tram lines and is across the river from the two main rail stations. Melbourne is a city of 4 million people and an attraction in itself.
I personally am no fan of casinos, of course it's great when you have high-rollers rocking in and staying in VIP suites, but it seems to me that the bread and butter is made by taking advantage of vulnerable people in the area.
One thing is for sure, a guy who has enriched himself from an illegal business on O'Connell street (a ridiculous situation itself) and supported by a character like Michael Lowry, shouldn't be winning any super-casino licenses.0 -
From Regulating Gaming in Ireland - Report of the Casino Committee a casino licence will only be award to those who can prove;
According to this article;That none of the persons associated with this gaming licence application has any business association with any person, body or association who or that, in the opinion of the gaming regulatory authority after investigation made or caused to be made by the gaming regulatory authority, is not of good repute having regard to character, honesty and integrity or has undesirable or unsatisfactory financial sources.
Surely with the Moriarty Tribunal report out today, which branded a rent deal linked to Ben Dunne as "profoundly corrupt", and concluded it is “beyond doubt” that Lowry "imparted substantive information to Mr O'Brien of significant value and assistance to him in securing the licence", the Tipperary Venue is now dead in the water.Mr Quirke said he “would like to acknowledge the efforts and assistance” of Mr Lowry because “this project would not have come to fruition if it were not for his time and dedication”.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »From Regulating Gaming in Ireland - Report of the Casino Committee a casino licence will only be award to those who can prove; According to this article;
Surely with the Moriarty Tribunal report out today, which branded a rent deal linked to Ben Dunne as "profoundly corrupt", and concluded it is “beyond doubt” that Lowry "imparted substantive information to Mr O'Brien of significant value and assistance to him in securing the licence", the Tipperary Venue is now dead in the water.
One would hope so. But my biggest concern is with the daft twits in Tipp that voted for the discredited twat over and over, no matter what he did.0 -
As a Tipperary man, I would agree with any reservations people have about Lowry, i really would, but i honestly think this venue could be brilliant for the area and if it comes to fruition and does create these jobs. i honestly believe it just might do that.0
-
Some of Lowrys shenanigans were described by Moriarity as "Profoundly Corrupt". Fortunately he is supporting this scheme ....simply from the goodness of his heart.
As for Denis, he pissed it all away on INM
0 -
Deleted User wrote: »As a Tipperary man, I would agree with any reservations people have about Lowry, i really would, but i honestly think this venue could be brilliant for the area and if it comes to fruition and does create these jobs. i honestly believe it just might do that.
No, if it came into fruition it would be terrible for the local area and the country in general. You do not build large employment centres in low density, sparsely populated regions which do not have the necessary infrastructure to cater for such a facility, or the extra development resulting from it, and has very little in the way of public transport. There seems to be no thought given to creating sustainable jobs, social factors such as developing communities, land use or deriving value for money from infrastructure spending.
Also, where is the sense in taking 800 acres of land which can contribute to our agriculture sector, a sector with huge economic potential, and paving over it? There are more appropriate places for a casino that do not involve decimating 800 acres of our beautiful countryside.
You would think that, after the mess we have been left with after the last twenty years of the Celtic Tiger, sustainable planning would be high on people agenda. Not in this country where people think they are entitled to build a huge mansion where ever they like and it is the job of government to provide them with quality roads, public transport, water, broadband, schools, hospitals etc. within a 10 minute drive but far enough away not to spoil the view from the mansion (the mansion having ruined the view of the area if standing anywhere except at the mansion!).
[/RANT]0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »No, if it came into fruition it would be terrible for the local area and the country in general. You do not build large employment centres in low density, sparsely populated regions which do not have the necessary infrastructure to cater for such a facility, or the extra development resulting from it, and has very little in the way of public transport. There seems to be no thought given to creating sustainable jobs, social factors such as developing communities, land use or deriving value for money from infrastructure spending.
The proposed site is five miles from Thurles which is on the primary rail route and is served very well by services to Cork, Dublin & Limerick. One of the major national bus routes runs regularly along the M8 which is less than a mile from the proposed venue. The roads are decent in the area and wouls easily cope with increased traffic (provided the M8 junction was upgraded). The venue proposes to provide private transfer services to the railway station at no cost to the taxpayer. Should demand for such a service arise, there are plenty of private transport companies who would provide commuter services for people working at the venue. The area is hardly a wasteland.
Why do you consider these jobs to be unsustainable? Unemployment is high in the area and the unskilled/semi-skilled jobs that will be on offer suit the profile of the area much more closely than high end high tech jobs. We have seen the loss of manufacturing jobs in the area with nothing taking their place. The people who need jobs would easily find work in a development such as this.Pete_Cavan wrote: »Also, where is the sense in taking 800 acres of land which can contribute to our agriculture sector, a sector with huge economic potential, and paving over it? There are more appropriate places for a casino that do not involve decimating 800 acres of our beautiful countryside.
200 acres of the proposed site was formerly a dairy farm. It was a very nice farm, very well-run, but not particularly beautiful. It is located on the edge of the fertile Tipperary plain, with much of the remaining 600 being cutaway bogland which is infertile and not good for very much. 200 acres of former farmland being given over to the development of an high-end equestrian centre (approved by Coolmore) is hardly a waste of agricultural land. There are many schemes within the agricultural sector which encourage farmers to find alternative uses for their land. The development of an equestrian centre is not outrageous in this context. The attached hotel & casino is simply a tourism development. The tourism sector is as important to employment as agriculture; agriculture is in decline as an employer. When this site was a farm it employed very few people. As a tourism venue it could offer up to 1000 jobs. Why prioritise agriculture above tourism in this context?
And what do you consider to be a more appropriate site? Cavan? Anywhere but Tipp? Dublin only? We are practically equidistant from Cork & Dublin airports and not much further from Shannon. We are renowned in the horse-racing industry. The fact that you are not opposed to the idea of this development, just it's location, suggests envy rather than outrage. It's Tipperary man's idea, why should he not set it up in his home county?Pete_Cavan wrote: »You would think that, after the mess we have been left with after the last twenty years of the Celtic Tiger, sustainable planning would be high on people agenda. Not in this country where people think they are entitled to build a huge mansion where ever they like and it is the job of government to provide them with quality roads, public transport, water, broadband, schools, hospitals etc. within a 10 minute drive but far enough away not to spoil the view from the mansion (the mansion having ruined the view of the area if standing anywhere except at the mansion!).
[/RANT]
Anything that maintains the local population through local employment will help to retain those services already in place. We have lost hospital services in North Tipp and those closest to us (Clonmel & Kilkenny) are at risk of having their services restricted too. The creation of jobs would return vibrancy to the area. What is wrong with that?
I am not wholly behind the idea of the casino. I see potential problems with it. I'm not sure I agree with changes to the gambling laws. I am not sure what impact it would have on my community (I live a mile and a half from the proposed site). I have fears that things would not be done right and that it would have a negative impact on the quality of life in the area. I fear that crime levels could rise.
However I do not agree with people from outside the area bitching about it being in the middle of nowhere (it is not) or being a waste of land (it is not) or saying that there is absolutely no local infrastructure (there is). The area is already well used to dealing with large events (Semple Stadium). There is already a project underway to upgrade the traffic system in Thurles. If the M8 junction was upgraded, traffic through the village of Two-Mile Borris would remain largely unaffected. Ordinary people would be able to get work locally instead of having to commute long distances or emigrate.
This is a privately funded project that would have to comply with existing or newly introduced legislation in order to receive a licence. There may be questions over the legality of Richard Quirke's operation on O'Connell Street. Surely that is a matter for Dublin City Council and the Gardaí? If the man is convicted of having committed an illegal act, he will not be able to obtain the appropriate licences to run the venue. The high levels of public scrutiny this project will attract should ensure that the entire planning, construction and licensing processes should be transparent and above board. If that is not the case, the project should not be allowed to go ahead.0 -
Advertisement
-
Cat Melodeon wrote: »The fact that you are not opposed to the idea of this development, just it's location, suggests envy rather than outrage. It's Tipperary man's idea, why should he not set it up in his home county?
The fact that I am not opposed to the idea of this development, just it's location is because the location is completely inappropriate for a development of this scale, it has nothing to do with envy. Your support for the project is based on the local-centric, never mind about the big picture mindset in this country. No surprise this the place that saw a crook like Lowry top the poles in the recent election. Your argument is basically - if they create jobs they should be allowed to do whatever they want, wherever they want. Sure what does sustainable planning matter, as long as Marys young fella gets a job out of it?
It is not as simple as drop in a huge employer like this anywhere in the country and watch the local economy take off. There will be huge infrastructural upgrades required, of course it will fall on the taxpayer to provide clean water, sewerage treatment, etc. The Tipperary Venue will require the infrastructure needed for a decent sized town to be built. Large developments like this should be situated in an urban centre where the infrastructure exists, or where money spend upgrading infrastructure will benefit a lot more homes and businesses giving greater value for money. It does not make sense to start from scratch each time you want to create jobs.
Aside from the 800 acres the development itself will take, there would also be huge land take for other types of development resulting from the casino. There obviously would be a big increase in population resulting from this, where are all these people going to live, shop, etc.? It is not as simple as - zone more land, grant more planning permission, problem sorted. If we learn anything from the last twenty years let it be that this approach does not work. And of course these new residential developments will be very low density sprawl which will be entirely reliant on the car as the only means of transport. We must be the only developed country in the world which does not plan employment centres and residential areas along with public transport. What price does petrol have to hit before we cop on?
People in this country also think that you can build anything beside a motorway, because, as it is a motorway, it can handle the traffic. I remember travelling from Cork to Dublin on the day of the Tipperary - Cork hurling match last year and seeing traffic backed up on the motorway for hundreds of metres on approach to the Thurles exit. Even motorways get traffic jams if the level of traffic is high enough.
This is not sustainable in any sense of the word and the fact that the proposal has got to the stage it is at highlights how ridiculous our approach to planning in this country is.0 -
I strongly disagree that this site is badly chosen, and I think it is environmentally sustainable. There is no better place than Tipperary for an equestrian centre. Large swathes of the development will be landscaped greenery, buildings will be as energy efficient as technology permits, and transport links are very good.
Also, Pete, I'm almost certain that you're wrong about the taxpayer having to foot the bill for infrastructure here. I attended a long presentation in the Horse and Jockey about this and the issue of water supply and treatment was dealt with. Water will be harnessed from deep caverns beneath the site and will be recycled, for the most part, using on-site technologies. Sewerage will also be treated on site. Upgrades to the M8 and R639 will be paid for by the developer, not by you and me.
Do I like the idea of a casino? Not particularly. Do I like the fact that Michael Lowry is involved? Certainly not.
But if someone chooses to go to a casino, then that's up to them. I'm not going to impose my morals or social views on others. If we're worried about addiction, then why don't we ban alcohol? (The amount of Irish people with an alcohol dependency is actually obscene. "We" get around that fact by pretending it's just part of "our" culture - something which infuriates me as a non-drinker.)
I look at the project as a whole. It's an ambitious idea by a private individual who is willing to foot the bill himself. I love aspects of the plan, particularly the equestrian centre, race tracks and concert venue, and actually, I don't think the White House replica will be remotely as tacky as some suggest (then again, I love the Millenium Spire). And even if it is tacky, so bloody what? It'll be on private property in the heart of site, away from public view.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »T Your support for the project is based on the local-centric, never mind about the big picture mindset in this country. No surprise this the place that saw a crook like Lowry top the poles in the recent election. Your argument is basically - if they create jobs they should be allowed to do whatever they want, wherever they want. Sure what does sustainable planning matter, as long as Marys young fella gets a job out of it?
I would support the prospect of an employer bringing jobs to anywhere in Ireland, the fact that it is in my locality makes it all the better. Is it wrong to be enthusiastic about potential local job creation? What is the big picture in this scenario? Why do you think it is okay to get new jobs for big urban centres and neglect rural communities?
What makes you think that a development like this would be automatically better served by existing infrastructure in Dublin? The 02 has abysmal public transport links. The city is full of empty multistory apartment blocks in unfinished deadzones like the Docklands. Dublin has numerous zombie hotels and an overabundance of golf clubs. Traffic is regularly gridlocked. New transport systems like the Luas were dreadfully planned - only two lines and they don't meet up?! The city cannot meet it's own needs for water or waste disposal. Are you an expert on the proposed site and environs that you are so sure that this project is an unsustainable one and that Dublin would be so much better?
And please note that I never said they should be allowed do whatever they want provided they create jobs. I clearly stated that all legalities and processes need to be adhered to. Planners are in place to ensure that this is the case. If you object to the plans perhaps you should make a submission to the planners or join up with An Taisce.
In addition, 70% of the voters in North Tipp DID NOT vote for Michael Lowry and would be much more comfortable about this project were he not involved. More evidence of your lack of knowledge of the area that you tar us all with the same brush.0 -
Pete_Cavan wrote: »People in this country also think that you can build anything beside a motorway, because, as it is a motorway, it can handle the traffic. I remember travelling from Cork to Dublin on the day of the Tipperary - Cork hurling match last year and seeing traffic backed up on the motorway for hundreds of metres on approach to the Thurles exit. Even motorways get traffic jams if the level of traffic is high enough.
This is not sustainable in any sense of the word and the fact that the proposal has got to the stage it is at highlights how ridiculous our approach to planning in this country is.
Pete, Tipperary v Cork took place in Cork last year so it must have been the game in 2009 in Thurles you are referring to. If i recall, the M8 motorway wasn't fully complete then in all fairness, there was still a few junctions around Mitchelstown, and Fermoy that weren't ready at that stage so perhaps they contributed to the bottleneck. I could be wrong on that though which fair enough if i am.
Being for this project != Supporting Lowry. The fact that the horse racing industry and the greyhound industry which are big in this country are behind this project is a positive sign.
im not keen on the casino idea myself to be honest but that's just my opinion. id echo the comments of Tremelo that there is a vast amount of pubs and off licenses in Ireland yet no one would complain if one more opened despite they also providing addictive goods.
if truth be known this development will have a considerable amount of greenery too and not just another concrete jungle.
yes i would share a concern that this may end up a nama/taxpayer casualty but would definitely like if 2000 jobs could be created and not 2000 more people heading for the boats and planes with a one way ticket out of here. is that so wrong?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »
Being for this project != Supporting Lowry. The fact that the horse racing industry and the greyhound industry which are big in this country are behind this project is a positive sign.
You mean those industries completely reliant on places like this for money?Of course they're behind it.They'd be behind it if it were on top of Mount Erigal too.Deleted User wrote: »if truth be known this development will have a considerable amount of greenery too and not just another concrete jungle.
Greenery doesn't equate to sustainability.In fact, if this were in a "concrete jungle" more people might benefit from upgraded infrastructure and the tax payer would save money.Deleted User wrote: »yes i would share a concern that this may end up a nama/taxpayer casualty but would definitely like if 2000 jobs could be created and not 2000 more people heading for the boats and planes with a one way ticket out of here. is that so wrong?
No, but it's also wrong to throw everything we've learned about planning out the window to keep them here.Cat Melodeon wrote: »I would support the prospect of an employer bringing jobs to anywhere in Ireland, the fact that it is in my locality makes it all the better. Is it wrong to be enthusiastic about potential local job creation? What is the big picture in this scenario? Why do you think it is okay to get new jobs for big urban centres and neglect rural communities?
Your twisting things here.It's not that straightforward.Situating this in an urban area could provide knock on effects for many, many more people than sticking down in Two-Mile-Borris, or any other rural community.Cat Melodeon wrote: »What makes you think that a development like this would be automatically better served by existing infrastructure in Dublin?
It would be.Luas, buses, DART, roads, proximity to a million and a half people.Cat Melodeon wrote: »The 02 has abysmal public transport links.
According to who?If you wait for 20 minutes after a concert finishes, a crowd of 14000 people will have completely disappeared.Three trams waiting to shuttle people home, buses and coaches timed to leave at oppurtune times.Cat Melodeon wrote: »The city is full of empty multistory apartment blocks in unfinished deadzones like the Docklands.
If that were true, which it isn't, it would be all the more reason to build a large project there.Cat Melodeon wrote: »Dublin has numerous zombie hotels and an overabundance of golf clubs.
I think you'll find that the rest of the country is suffering these problems to a much greater degree than Dublin.Cat Melodeon wrote: »Traffic is regularly gridlocked.
Gridlock occurred once in Dublin when a pipe crossing the M50 burst.One time.Other than that, traffic isn't what it once was.Cat Melodeon wrote: »New transport systems like the Luas were dreadfully planned - only two lines and they don't meet up?!
While that may be true, it's still a lot more than anywhere else in the country has.Them not meeting up is irrelevant to there effectiveness.Cat Melodeon wrote: »The city cannot meet it's own needs for water or waste disposal.
All the more reason to let Quirke fund some new infrastructure.Cat Melodeon wrote: »Are you an expert on the proposed site and environs that you are so sure that this project is an unsustainable one and that Dublin would be so much better?
Are you?Any fool who observed the problems caused by dreadful planning over the last 13 years could make an educated guess as to which would be more sustainable.Cat Melodeon wrote: »Planners are in place to ensure that this is the case. If you object to the plans perhaps you should make a submission to the planners or join up with An Taisce.
Planners have gotten it worng before and will again.The CoCos don't help matters and An Taisce is almost always ignored despite its usually sound objections.I will most certainly making a submission.I strongly disagree that this site is badly chosen, and I think it is environmentally sustainable. There is no better place than Tipperary for an equestrian centre. Large swathes of the development will be landscaped greenery, buildings will be as energy efficient as technology permits, and transport links are very good.
Greenery means nothing, an equestrian centre can be put anywhere and transport links are not very good.I love aspects of the plan, particularly the equestrian centre, race tracks and concert venue, and actually
All irrelevant to location.I don't think the White House replica will be remotely as tacky as some suggest (then again, I love the Millenium Spire). And even if it is tacky, so bloody what? It'll be on private property in the heart of site, away from public view.
I actually agree with you here.The spire is great too.:)0 -
Greenery means nothing, an equestrian centre can be put anywhere and transport links are not very good.
The only reason greenery was mentioned in the first place was to counter Pete's contention that 600 acres of farmland will be covered in concrete. This isn't the case.
Of course an equestrian centre can be put anywhere, but in the end it has to be put somewhere specific. Tipperary is the location non plus ultra for an equestrian centre though, because it's the cultural epicentre of the Irish horse industry.
I'll amend my statement to 'potentially very good'. I say this because of the motorway and train station nearby. Could the links be better? Definitely. But they will be good enough, given upgrades to local infrastructure paid for by the developer and overseen by the NRA.
I am all for concentrating development in urban areas. But one can go too far in this direction as well. This is an expansive project, quite suited to a rural location. Were it to be sited in Dublin, you'd be looking at a fringe development contributing to urban sprawl. In Tipperary it's effectively a demesne.0 -
I have got to agree with you Tremelo.
Besides, building such a project in Tipperary does not rule out a Casino complex being developed in Dublin. Why do things in this country always have to be seen as either / or?
The location has resonance with the Equestrian industry, it is located ideally between several urban centres, not just one (Motorway to Dublin, Cork, convenient for Limerick / Waterford), is near a rail line with direct service to Dublin, Cork, Limerick and one change service to Galway.
The Motorway which serves it is not operating anywhere near its full capacity and can be easily expanded if necessary.
The same people who drone on about concreting the countryside are often the very same people who give out about everything going to Dublin. You cant have it both ways.
Here is a proposal which will radically alter the local economy, bring spin off benefits to businesses and attractions across the region, massively increase employment in the area, and is actually sited on along a high quality transport corridor.
What the hell is the problem??0 -
None if it is privately financed. I am very sceptical about its economic merits but if it is fundable privately then let them have a crack at it. They had better fund it properly though, none of your casino in phase one and yer mini whitehouse and 'other ameneties' in phase four BS. Treat it like an SDZ and built all the facilities and infrastructure ( transport/sewage )in one phase...or else do nothing or else build the racecourse and golf course in phase 2 but every other facility/all infrastructure in phase 1.What the hell is the problem??
I am personally mindful of Mansfields grotesque overexpansion in Citywest and the refusal of the local authority in South Dublin to ever enforce proper planning on a back road off the Naas road more than anything else. As Runway16 said the basic transport network is largely in place here already and is undercapacity.0 -
Cat Melodeon wrote: »What makes you think that a development like this would be automatically better served by existing infrastructure in Dublin? The 02 has abysmal public transport links. The city is full of empty multistory apartment blocks in unfinished deadzones like the Docklands. Dublin has numerous zombie hotels and an overabundance of golf clubs. Traffic is regularly gridlocked. New transport systems like the Luas were dreadfully planned - only two lines and they don't meet up?! The city cannot meet it's own needs for water or waste disposal. Are you an expert on the proposed site and environs that you are so sure that this project is an unsustainable one and that Dublin would be so much better?
The reasons for the Dublins poor transport/water/waste disposal is because a lot of the tax revenue generated in Dublin is transferred to other parts of the country to pay for infrastructure there. If Dublin retained all the money it generated it would have excellent transport/water/waste disposal infrastructure, although just about everywhere else would get nothing. Dublin is the driver of our economy, highlighted by the fact that 50% of our tax revenue is generated there. If we are to improve our economy, we should strengthen other large urban centres (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford) not taking 800 acres of countryside to create 2,000 jobs in a rural area beside a town of only 500 people. Two Mile Borris can not handle a development on this scale, if they are determined to build a casino there it should be scaled down to a more appropriate size. Not only would the development damage the local area, the opertunity cost is loss of development and further urban decay in our regional cities which will damage our economy. Large developments like this should be located in cities where we should be increasing densities so that proper public transport can be provided.Deleted User wrote: »Pete, Tipperary v Cork took place in Cork last year so it must have been the game in 2009 in Thurles you are referring to. If i recall, the M8 motorway wasn't fully complete then in all fairness, there was still a few junctions around Mitchelstown, and Fermoy that weren't ready at that stage so perhaps they contributed to the bottleneck. I could be wrong on that though which fair enough if i am.
Sorry, it was the day of the Munster hurling final between Cork and Waterford played in Thurles, the drawn game. My point still stands though.The only reason greenery was mentioned in the first place was to counter Pete's contention that 600 acres of farmland will be covered in concrete. This isn't the case.
The project itself is 800 acres and with additional development in the region you would be talking well over 1,000 acres of countryside lost (although not necessarily cover in concrete). Our agricultural sector has huge potential for growth and can create plenty of jobs in this region (more on the scale of what is required). If this project goes ahead we will be lamenting the loss of so much agricultural land to yet another white elephant development surrounded by low density, poorly connected, car dependant communities which have very little economic value. It is too much to ask for this country to apply some foresight to these issues. But sure lets sacrific more land that has export potential and increase our reliance on imported oil!What the hell is the problem??
I have no issue with a casino (provided casinos are properly legislated for), I dont even have a issue with a casino in Two Mile Borris, what I have a issue with is a development on this scale in that location. Financially, the project is only viable because of its size, but As I said, it is not just the infrastructure for the development itself, there would also be huge additional development resulting from it, houses for employees, as well as shops, recreational facilities etc. that will have to be provided for. You cant just stick something like this in a predominantly rural area and think everything will be grand. What we will get is more land zoned for low density 3/4 semi d's with no real public transport (the train line there is a commuter route between the cities, it is no good for local travel). Does nobody else see the folly of creating more car dependant communities? Have we not learned anything from the last 20 years?0 -
Advertisement
-
Some reasons you may have for being against this project:
- Gambling is immoral
- Horse/Dog racing is cruel
- It will damage the environment if it is a success
Taisce's objection is because of the last point. If you agree with Taisce for objecting on environmental grounds then you can also be against it because it will fail.
In fact you cannot be against it because you think it will fail at all. It is none of your business, any more than it is my business or the planning authorities that you may not be able to pay for a house you are building for yourself. The planning authorities are not banks or investors. The economic mess we are in is nothing to planning, it is to do with bank regulation, a new set of un tested circumstance (monetary union) and Fianna Fail buying elections by getting rid of income tax and raising public wages. You cannot object to every new business idea on the back of it may need to be bailed out by the state, failed companies banks or otherwise should not be rescued anyway, otherwise they will not learn how to do their jobs properly and silly people will think that it is the county council's job to vet everyones financial background before they build an extension on to their garden shed.
Transport links to Two-Mile Boris are as good as you will find anywhere in the country. It is about half way between Dublin and Cork on a motorway which is underused.
The music venue should be a success unless they build similar venues in Limerick and Cork also. The racetrack and the dogtrack will be successful, because existing successful horse and dog tracks will close to make space for them in the market.
The Casino is a bit nuts, but maybe it could be a good it it was only opened when there is a major event. In anycase I would prefer if it was limited to residents and I cannot see it making money.
A guy from the locality wants to build something there. IF you think it would do better somewhere else, find your onw money and build it there and see who wins, its a free market. Who are you to dictate to private investors where they should put their money.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement