The Tipperary Venue: major plans for sport & culture complex off M8 Junction 5

OurLadyofKnock

IngazZagni wrote: »

I'm someone that feels that the 02 in Dublin is of inadequate design and capacity for the Countries main entertainment venue.

You are right what this country need is another giant shed in the middle of nowhere in the hope the Rose of Tralee becomes as big as the World Cup.

Built in a field with an R road leading to it and a few overpirced B&Bs nearby and a pub owned by a TD. Perfect!

The Irish development model. Never lets us down. These new fangled cities thing-a-magigs will never take off.

I can just see it now. "Are you ready to rock Clogher-on-Carrigeeeeeeeeennnnn!"

IngazZagni

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

You are right what this country need is another giant shed in the middle of nowhere in the hope the Rose of Tralee becomes as big as the World Cup.

Built in a field with an R road leading to it and a few overpirced B&Bs nearby and a pub owned by a TD. Perfect!

The Irish development model. Never lets us down. These new fangled cities thing-a-magigs will never take off.

I can just see it now. "Are you ready to rock Clogher-on-Carrigeeeeeeeeennnnn!"

Glad you cut the second part of my quote off were I mentioned location being a problem and thus probably a good idea that it's not a going to go ahead. Why did you ignore that part?

Amtmann

Why is this being referred to constantly in the media as "Las Vegas-style"? What exactly is "Las Vegas-style"? It sounds to me like a rhetorical strategy designed to arouse negativity.

OurLadyofKnock

IngazZagni wrote: »

Glad you cut the second part of my quote off were I mentioned location being a problem and thus probably a good idea that it's not a going to go ahead. Why did you ignore that part?

Oh sorry. I wasn't talking about you per se - It was a general glib statement in relation to how messed up this country is in terms of building white elephants in rural areas. My apology.

OurLadyofKnock

Tremelo wrote: »

Why is this being referred to constantly in the media as "Las Vegas-style"? What exactly is "Las Vegas-style"? It sounds to me like a rhetorical strategy designed to arouse negativity.

You are lobbying again.

Aidan1

Why is this being referred to constantly in the media as "Las Vegas-style"?

Because it almost precisely mirrors the Vegas business model - building a standalone settlement premised entirely on leisure and gambing, distant from any urban centre of significaant scale, hoping to drag people in on a number of grounds and persuading them to depart after leaving as much cash as possible.

For the record, I wouldn't be in favour of this if it was in the Phoenix Park or in the Lee Fields; the fact that it is literally miles from anywhere merely compounds my opposition.

Pete_Cavan

IngazZagni wrote: »

As for Lowery, he really has nothing to do with it apart from being a TD in the area. Really he would be best to shut up rather than try to blow his own trumpet on he is part of the reason this is going ahead.

Lowery has plenty to do with it and according to Quirke “this project would not have come to fruition if it were not for his time and dedication”. And because Lowery is involved they should not get a casino licence, see here

Amtmann

Aidan1 wrote: »

Because it almost precisely mirrors the Vegas business model - building a standalone settlement premised entirely on leisure and gambing, distant from any urban centre of significaant scale, hoping to drag people in on a number of grounds and persuading them to depart after leaving as much cash as possible.

But isn't Las Vegas itself now an urban centre of significant scale? (Or is that just because that's what LV ended up becoming in the end?)

marmurr1916

Tremelo wrote: »

But isn't Las Vegas itself now an urban centre of significant scale? (Or is that just because that's what LV ended up becoming in the end?)

There wouldn't be a Las Vegas without the casinos. Las Vegas is probably one of the most environmentally unsustainable cities in the world, if not the the most.

The Thurles complex isn't going to be particularly environmentally friendly either, given that most people will be driving to it.

I'd imagine that if the racecourse is successful it will lead to the closure of at least one existing racecourse - most likely the Tipperary Racecourse at Limerick Junction.

Amtmann

Let me re-phrase that.

It seems you (Aidan) are comparing the proposed Tipp Venue the complex to Las Vegas the city. But I on the other hand am wondering why the Tipp Venue is being likened to a typical casino in Las Vegas (which is what I understand by the phrase "Las Vegas-style casino"), not to Las Vegas itself. We understand two different things by that phrase

Since the casinos of Las Vegas are often imagined with garish neon signs and slot machines, the comparison is baseless if those journalists are simply saying the the casino of the Tipperary Venue will be the same as a typical casino in Las Vegas. It won't be.

As for Las Vegas itself, it had a population of 25,000 before the first casino opened there, but naturally I agree that these days its raison d'etre is gambling. I don't think it's very meaningful to compare a largely green site in Tipp a mere 60 minutes from Cork and 70 from the M50 to a desert city of half a million, however.

Judgement Day

I listened to assorted bods associated with the project on Matt Cooper's programme today and the point was made ad nauseum about how great it was that everybody would be able to drive to Two-mile-Borris. Ireland just doesn't get it when it comes to planning for the future - the 1950s are over. :rolleyes:

Amtmann

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

You are lobbying again.

What does that mean? You do realise that it comes across as paranoia, right? I am a lobbyist? Really? Please get a grip. I asked a legitimate question, nothing more, nothing less.

dubhthach

{Mod}
Folks this thread is starting to generate way too much heat (and not enough light). Can we keep the discussion to the project as oppose to discussing posters inner motivations etc. -- The place for that is "Personal Issues" I would think.

If it continues to consist of posts making statements about individual posters and their motivations etc then I won't have any problems with locking the thread.

{/Mod}

Personally I'm not particulary in favour of the Casino industry, does anyone have details specifically about the Bords ruling today (I only briefly heard something on radio in passing)

IngazZagni

Judgement Day wrote: »

I listened to assorted bods associated with the project on Matt Cooper's programme today and the point was made ad nauseum about how great it was that everybody would be able to drive to Two-mile-Borris. Ireland just doesn't get it when it comes to planning for the future - the 1950s are over. :rolleyes:

??? Driving will be around for a long time to come, whether it be in its current fashion or in electric vehicles. Even if in 20 years time, private automobiles are almost non-existent which I doubt very much will be the case. Bus transport can get here quickly via the motorway or even the Dublin-Cork train, getting off at Thurles which is a mere taxi shuttle away.

Amtmann

dubhthach wrote: »

Personally I'm not particulary in favour of the Casino industry, does anyone have details specifically about the Bords ruling today (I only briefly heard something on radio in passing)

Report attached. The Bord went against the inspector's recommendation to refuse permission.

Amtmann

Transport and access issues are dealt with in detail on page 22 of 77 of the above attached document.

OurLadyofKnock

Tremelo wrote: »

Transport and access issues are dealt with in detail on page 22 of 77 of the above attached document.

I read it and it is the usual guff about "potential" bus connections and apparently Thurles is the best rail connected location outside Dublin???

The usual Gombeen Newspeak. I have no idea why you are so eager to see this horror foisted upon your home county (I know the national interest means nothing outside Dublin so I won't ask your opinion on that).

It I lived there I would would be looking to investigate how and why this thing has come this far and what Lowery's real agenda is. Apart from getting the local simpletons to re-elect him.

Honestly, you are embrassing yourself on this board with your gung ho endorsement of this piece of crap which serves nobody other than gombeens on the public payroll. This is precisely the kind of thing which has horribly damaged this country in the past in terms of infrastructure development and legitimacy on this island.

A classic piece of GAA county jersey paddywackery patriotism.

dubhthach

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I read it and it is the usual guff about "potential" bus connections and apparently Thurles is the best rail connected location outside Dublin???

The usual Gombeen Newspeak. I have no idea why you are so eager to see this horror foisted upon your home county (I know the national interest means nothing outside Dublin so I won't ask your opinion on that).

It I lived there I would would be looking to investigate how and why this thing has come this far and what Lowery's real agenda is. Apart from getting the local simpletons to re-elect him.

Honestly, you are embrassing yourself on this board with your gung ho endorsement of this piece of crap which serves nobody other than gombeens on the public payroll. This is precisely the kind of thing which has horribly damaged this country in the past in terms of infrastructure development and legitimacy on this island.

A classic piece of GAA county jersey paddywackery patriotism.

Mod!

Infracted and banned for two weeks. Breach of rules 1 (baiting/trolling) and 3 (attacking other poster). I had put a warning on the thread that I wanted it to concentrate on the actual proposal/project and not to be analysing other posters posts etc.

Amtmann

Just as a declaration: I have no vested interest in this project whatsoever. I don't own any land close to it (or anywhere else for that matter). I don't own horses or greyhounds, nor am I involved in the retail, construction or hospitality industries. I would be in favour of this development whether I lived in Tipperary, Boulder City or Bangkok. I have already commented on what I think of Michael Lowry's involvement in the project (not that that it is really relevant to the development). I have posted often against the GAA jersey mentality and parochialism. I am also well known for my pro-urban, pro-public transport sentiments.

I favour this because:

• It is being backed by private money at no cost to the public purse
• It is an infrastructurally interesting proposal which plays to the strengths of the area in which it is to be located
• In the midst of this deep recession, it has the potential to generate thousands of jobs and economically boost a depressed part of this state.

I have no problem with people holding a contrary opinion to mine.

Aidan1

seems you (Aidan) are comparing the proposed Tipp Venue the complex to Las Vegas the city.

I explicitly am, both from the political economies of the proposed development and because of the regional development/planning considerations.

In the first instance, both developments leveraged their existence/origin from their location, and political sensitivities around that, Vegas to the fact that the State of Nevada had liberal gaming laws, was close enough to LA to attract investment, but had no other major industries, so the gambling industries (ie, the Mob) could control political life and thus secure the licensing regime. This development is placed so that the developers can bang the drum for jobs 'in a marginal rural area', and to try and squeeze a change in the law from that position of power - and woe betide any politician who comes out against it. It is no different from companies like Lockheed or GD opening plants in the American South in the 1960s and 1970s - they could exercise an undue degree of political control (particularly when they could swing Dem seats to Repub) over public policy (defence spending in this case). In this case, the developers aim to become very wealthy by exploiting other, far more mundane, cultural senstivities. Ask yourself, why Two Mile Borris, and not Limerick or Cork (or Waterford or Limerick)? Could it possibly be that location = leverage? I mean, after all the developer in question has retail presence in Dublin city centre, why is he not trying to turn that into a casino?

On a more practical front, significant elements of the project are either inappropriate for the area, or (in my view) should not go ahead at all. I have no difficulty with a private developer wanting to build a racecourse, greyhound track or a hotel/golf course. The first two are entire culturally appropriate, and it's no skin off my nose if somebody wants to invest several hundred million of his own money into building facilities that are entirely redundant - after all the country is awash with bankrupt 5 star hotel/golf course developments. I can't see any rational financier actually backing it, but so as the debt isn't socialised, I don't care.

The event centre and casino, on the other hand, are very different. I can think of absolutely no rational reason why planning should be granted for an event centre over an hour and 15 minutes from the closest large urban settlement, and I'm glad that ABP think the same way. There is going to be no shortage of venues in the regional cities - if Two Mile Borris is 'only an hour and 15 mins from Cork/Limerick', then the reverse is also true, and fewer people have to travel the longer distance. Lastly, to the casino.

Think about it. To make money, the casino would have to attract large numbers of punters in the door every night it's open. To think that resort development in Tipperary will attract enough high rollers to ensure that the development is a classy Monte Carlo type joint is wishful thinking. Instead of immaculately groomed aristocratic types playing baccarat, it means large volumes of people, which means the full range of services, including slot machines (low labour costs after all) - so yes, garish, nasty, loud gambling - the less pleasant end of the Vegas strip. The gaming laws that we presently have are not perfect, but they do prevent the growth of large retail level casinos, a concept that I am entirely uncomfortable with (and I suspect that a great many oher Irish people are also). The developers are trying to use the sweetener of promising hotels, golf courses, and jobs, jobs, jobs in order to get the law changed so that they can go build their casino. I don't think it appropriate that important policy issues be decided on the basis of small vocal pressure groups with a commercial agenda.

BrianD

As an infrastructure project it's a dud.

It is and always will be in the middle of nowhere. However, it's existence may tempt councillors to zone more land around it and allow other unstainable developments on the basis it's beside the venue.

What will it add? Tipperary already has horse racing tracks - Tipperary, Clonmel and Thurles. Greyhound tracks in the same towns. Plus you have courses in nearby counties. One would imagine that some or all of these will be under threat.

It is hilarious when transport links are discussed - nobody was ever going to this venue in anything other than a car or private hire bus. Only the desperate will be coming on a coach and train.

And the use of 'Las Vegas style' is misleading. This suggests an element of glitz and glamour and that it's a city. It would be better to compare it to one of the casinos built in the middle of nowhere in an Indian reservation.

The pro-venue folks also forget to mention the extra jobs created in prostitution and drug dealing. All will add to the local economy.

Any bets on the music venue getting a shoo in sooner rather than later?

Also if the laws are changed to suit this development won't the same law apply everywhere else? So casinos are legalised and the Tipp venue never gets built for some reason or other ... hey presto, casinos pop up everywhere else!

popebenny16

Tremelo wrote: »

Just as a declaration: I have no vested interest in this project whatsoever. I don't own any land close to it (or anywhere else for that matter). I don't own horses or greyhounds, nor am I involved in the retail, construction or hospitality industries. I would be in favour of this development whether I lived in Tipperary, Boulder City or Bangkok. I have already commented on what I think of Michael Lowry's involvement in the project (not that that it is really relevant to the development). I have posted often against the GAA jersey mentality and parochialism. I am also well known for my pro-urban, pro-public transport sentiments.


I favour this because:

• It is being backed by private money at no cost to the public purse
• It is an infrastructurally interesting proposal which plays to the strengths of the area in which it is to be located
• In the midst of this deep recession, it has the potential to generate thousands of jobs and economically boost a depressed part of this state.

I have no problem with people holding a contrary opinion to mine.

Well, I live just down the road, sort of, from it. My opinion is twofold.

Firstly -It is one hotel, with a gambling room inside it, like you used to get in Vegas. One. The rest of it, the racecourse and the greyhound track, is simply moving what is already there in Thurles down the road. There is no realistic prospect of increasing the patronage of these two venues by moving them, and therefore the small patronage they will generate probably, on their own, swamp the existing or modified infrastructure. The White House thing is a curio and also cannot on its own expect to generate massive interest. That leaves the casino - or more to the point - the casino licence. That is of tremendous value, for it will probably, for a time at least, be the only one in the state. It may also come with tax breaks to get its operators up and running.

What could well happen here is, like the famer who can flog off a few acres with planning for a million as opposed to a few tens of thosands without planning, Quirke and his backers, and you can make what you will of that term, can flog off the entire greenfield site, with the licence, towhoever they want, and the job is done. None of that messy activity of actually having to build, manage and operate it.

I cannot see such a small-scale, single casino operation making anything near enough to get back what it will cost as things stand. I can only see it doing so with massive future expansion. That may not be the headache of the current developers. It will be the headache of us who live here. It was 9 degrees here on thursday. Who in their right mind, who has the choice of Monte Carlo instead of Monte Carlow, Las Vegas instead of Laois Vegas, or Atlantic City instead of, erm, cant think of a pun, will want to choose the latter? It's nuts.

Monte Carlo?? Monthy Python more like.

Secondly - its Dicks money. If he wants to burn it, fine. I have decided to plan ahead and invest in an Austin Martin Dealership and a Tux Hire Company.

Aidan1

or Atlantic City instead of, erm, cant think of a pun

Macau instead of Macroom?

VinLieger

Thought we had gotten over the whole "build it and they will come attitude". It might do well for the first few months since its new and fancy but give it a year and whos gonna go to it?
Its not near ANYTHING even a major transport hub for foreigners to get to it, so honestly what is gonna attract foreigners or for that matter irish people to go to it once its open for a few months and the new smell has worn off. And dont say the greyhound track, horse racing course or golf course its not like we dont have any others all over the country.

popebenny16

not really relevent to this thread, but we have to focus on the big thing here - the goal of all of this is to secure the licence, nothing more. We have invented the wheel again. Its the same as the lad with an acre worth 50k but with the planning its worth 250K or more.

As has been noted by other posters, this is a development, which, on the face of it, is not possible in economic terms.

Licences, however, can be mobile. If this casino ends up in Dublin or somewhere else because a future holder of it looks at the economics of the situation in two mile borris and vomits into the nearest bucket, well, we can always say we saw it coming.

BrianD

I truely hope that there will be no tax breaks afforded to this project in any shape or form.

Bards

The same arguments (Jobs Jobs Jobs)were made about Rathdowney Outlet Centre. it was located miles from any large urban settlement. yet was just off the Dublin - Cork Road.

Anytime I go there (when passing through) it is largely empty with closed down outlets

I feel the same will happen to this development - It is a wrong development in the wrong place

Edit:
Catchment Area http://www.rathdowneyoutlet.ie/page.asp?cid=458

popebenny16

just caught a bit of liveline and it appears that all is ok. they only want to run a race that will compete with the Dubai Desert Classic. An investor (it may have been richard quirke) is saying this to an increasingly incedulous sounding Ben Dunne, who reasonalby points out that the Curragh is a mere 40 mins away from this, and from what he has seen it can never be built.

This sounds more and more like the Bertiebowl/Sport Campus Ireland thing - in the end something was built and some egos got their way. What is going on here???

popebenny16

Bards wrote: »

The same arguments (Jobs Jobs Jobs)were made about Rathdowney Outlet Centre. it was located miles from any large urban settlement. yet was just off the Dublin - Cork Road.

Anytime I go there (when passing through) it is largely empty with closed down outlets

I feel the same will happen to this development - It is a wrong development in the wrong place

Edit:
Catchment Area http://www.rathdowneyoutlet.ie/page.asp?cid=458

Ah, the outlet centre. They built there because they belived that there was going to be a proper motorway junction of the M7/M8 just up the road and that it was going to be built in the early 00's (or some time around that, cannot remember) and as such they were simply unlucky. The junction was built further on, it wasnt a full junction and it was about 8 years late. Meanwhile Kildare outlet killed it.

serfboard

BrianD wrote: »

Also if the laws are changed to suit this development won't the same law apply everywhere else? So casinos are legalised and the Tipp venue never gets built for some reason or other ... hey presto, casinos pop up everywhere else!

This is, I suspect, the real motivation behind this. It's a trojan horse to get casino legislation through, IMO. "Won't anyone think of the jobs?" is the whinge from Lowry - hoping to use this to get this legislation passed.

Incidentally I heard Lowry on the News At One the other day. In reference to the development he kept saying "we" - as if he was one of the developers. The fact that he is involved makes me smell a rat.

Also, Sean O'Rourke asked him three times if the money was in place. He never answered the question. As someone else asked, what bank manager (Irish or international) is going to fund this - specially when the markets are thinking that we are going to default on loans. I agree with the quoted post - this will not get built. They tried to throw everything into the mix to get it through - the daftest thing being that White House replica. Making Gombeen paddies of us all.