Aviva Stadium Too Small?

who_ru

what do you all think?

can't help but feel they (FAI/IRFU) have built a stadium that just won't be big enough. we have seen from croker that the rugby boys can get 70,000-80,000 a match, i'm sure that some soccer internationals would attract crowds of 50,000+ - so why have they limited the capacity to 50,000?

is it a planning restriction?

That_Guy

Croke Park is terrible for atmosphere.

50,000 will provide a much better atmosphere I think.

celticbest

That_Guy wrote: »

Croke Park is terrible for atmosphere.

50,000 will provide a much better atmosphere I think.

The only reason that the atmosphere is bad in Croke Park is because of the size of a soccer pitch and the distance it is away from the crowd.

I think that you could actually put the pitch width ways (Cusack to Hogan stands), and it would still be long enough to meet FIFA regulations.

The bigger the crowd usually leads to a better atmosphere, wait until we play France in the Play-offs and you will see.

The new Lansdowne should have had a capacity of at least 65,000.

bobbysands81

That_Guy wrote: »

Croke Park is terrible for atmosphere.

50,000 will provide a much better atmosphere I think.

Atmosphere in Croker is immense for GAA matches.

Used to love going to Lansdowne Road in the mid to late 80s as a kid, the atmosphere then was great, but I found it all changed when the bucket seats came in, it completely killed the atmosphere and craic at games. Would be good if there was a better atmosphere in the Aviva.

Surprised that the capacity is only 50k as the IRFU could easily fill a stadium nearly twice that size for rugby games alone. The FAI seem to struggle to fill Croker so not sure that they need more than a 50k stadium but surely they should have gone bigger?

That_Guy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Atmosphere in Croker is immense for GAA matches.

That's because Croker is originally designed for GAA matches. The atmosphere is drained completely when there's a soccer match on there. Only the Italy game has had great atmosphere any time I've been there.

Lansdowne was great for atmosphere every match and long may it continue when it reopens.

bobbysands81

That_Guy wrote: »

Lansdowne was great for atmosphere every match and long may it continue when it reopens.

Agree with the first part of your post but Lansdowne Road is dire for atmosphere bar the biggest of games.

That_Guy

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Agree with the first part of your post but Lansdowne Road is dire for atmosphere bar the biggest of games.

I've been to many Landsdowne games and every time the atmosphere was fantastic. Ok maybe there are exceptions with friendlies but in comparison with Croker Lansdowne wins hands down when it comes to atmosphere.

I know it's a smaller crowd but in a more enclosed stadium the atmosphere generates around the pitch. Croker was too big for soccer.

leninbenjamin

I believe the IRFU/FAI wanted to build a bigger stadium initially, but were unable to do so because of the small footprint necessitated by the planners.

The other big factor was not being allowed build over the Dart line, that has seriously cramped one end of the stand, probably only 20% of the capacity of the other end.

noodler

No competition between Lansdowne and Croker for Soccer internationals.

I think 50,000 is fine for football.

I don't think we have managed to fill Crokeronce with football games since we moved there. Even Italy, with lots riding on it, only got 70,000. Obviously I am sure we will fill it for France.

But I don't want to think about that because it makes me nervous.

Gone Drinking

celticbest wrote: »

The bigger the crowd usually leads to a better atmosphere

Not true, look at Anfield, or St James Park

stovelid

Size of the site notwithstanding, I think 50+ is a fit size.

No use in overspending on seats when long-term support for either code could well be subject to fluctuations dependent on the success of the teams and the interest of the Irish public.

Best to aim for a capacity that will be full to the brim in the good times and not look empty in the bad times.

thorbarry

noodler wrote: »

No competition between Lansdowne and Croker for Soccer internationals.

I think 50,000 is fine for football.

I don't think we have managed to fill Crokeronce with football games since we moved there. Even Italy, with lots riding on it, only got 70,000. Obviously I am sure we will fill it for France.

But I don't want to think about that because it makes me nervous.

I think 50,000 is great. It will be packed, and the atmosphere will be great because we're closer to the pitch. The match against Montenegro in croker only had 50,000. So imagine that in the Aviva. The atmosphere would have been much better that that of the game in croker, which was crap

Eire-Dearg

Like someone mentioned, 50k is perfect for football. Should be just to size to generate a fantastic atmosphere and re-create a top notch fortress.

noodler

thorbarry wrote: »

I think 50,000 is great. It will be packed, and the atmosphere will be great because we're closer to the pitch. The match against Montenegro in croker only had 50,000. So imagine that in the Aviva. The atmosphere would have been much better that that of the game in croker, which was crap

Absolutely, had the misfortune of being at the Negran game. Didn't feel like 50,000 at all, did it?

thorbarry

noodler wrote: »

Absolutely, had the misfortune of being at the Negran game. Didn't feel like 50,000 at all, did it?

no it didnt, it was weird, so many empty seats.

Mossy Monk

I always felt it should have been 70,000 if at all possible.

prendy

stovelid wrote: »

Size of the site notwithstanding, I think 50+ is a fit size.

No use in overspending on seats when long-term support for either code could well be subject to fluctuations dependent on the success of the teams and the interest of the Irish public.

Best to aim for a capacity that will be full to the brim in the good times and not look empty in the bad times.

wales for example.
50k is planty big for all FAI and IRFU games bar England in 6 nations IMO.

rossie1977

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I believe the IRFU/FAI wanted to build a bigger stadium initially, but were unable to do so because of the small footprint necessitated by the planners.

The other big factor was not being allowed build over the Dart line, that has seriously cramped one end of the stand, probably only 20% of the capacity of the other end.

nothing to do with the dart line, it was the residents at one end of the ground (behind the goal) complaining that a tall stand would cast shadows and other BS, same thing happened at anfield, the anfield road residents complained about the size of the new anfield road stand and that was reduced big time, at lansdowne the stand was reduced to about a 1/4 the size it would have been

Spud83

prendy wrote: »

wales for example.
50k is planty big for all FAI and IRFU games bar England in 6 nations IMO.

Rugby pulled in an average of 75,000 for the six nations games against Italy, Wales, and Scotland in 2008, and that was on the back of a poor world cup. I imagine the six nations will be close to sold out this year for the same games.

They have also sold out two friendlies this November, admittedly against top class opposition.

Whatever about the FAI, but the IRFU could definitely fill a bigger stadium on a regular basis.

Dublin_Gunner

50,000 I always thought was a little small.

Sweet spot I reckon would have been around 65k.

Pity the FAI gave the 2 fingers to Eircom for the Gov back in the day (damn you harney /waves fist). Could have had a nice, decent sized stadium built a few years by now.

Fr Tod Umptious

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Rugby pulled in an average of 75,000 for the six nations games against Italy, Wales, and Scotland in 2008, and that was on the back of a poor world cup. I imagine the six nations will be close to sold out this year for the same game.

Yes but it was still during a period when Ireland had a chance of winning the Grand Slam

Wait till Ireland go back to being wooden spoon contenders and we'll see how may turn up

prendy

sugarman wrote: »

Is it 50,000 + the 10,000 corporate seats/boxes or would that make it 40,000 public seats + the other 10,000?

I cant remember which way it is, either way 50k is too small, should have been 60k atleast and half that for corporate seating, not a chance those 10,000 will be sold. AFAIK they've still only sold 1/3 of that.

50k total

cson

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes but it was still during a period when Ireland had a chance of winning the Grand Slam

Wait till Ireland go back to being wooden spoon contenders and we'll see how may turn up

Irish rugby is in rude health at the moment and that won't be happening any time soon.

It's a curious situation though, could you justify having 2 80k+ seater stadiums in a country the size of Ireland? I think that had the GAA opened Croke Park up unequivocally, beyond 2010 then Lansdowne would be the perfect foil, especially to the FAI for the likes of Montenegro with big games like Italy moved to Croke Park. As it is, it's far too small for the IRFU but perfect for the FAI for all bar 2 games per qualifying group.

CHD

The north stand looks crap, like they ran out of material.

jesus_thats_gre

Ye lot would complain about anything. We could and still can barely afford to build it in it's current form. Not sure of the exact numbers but the cost of building stadiums increase massively once you go over 50k to the extent that 50k seats would cost 300m and 65k seats would have cost 450m. Those numbers aren't factual and are just used m explain what I meant.

Spud83

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Ye lot would complain about anything. We could and still can barely afford to build it in it's current form. Not sure of the exact numbers but the cost of building stadiums increase massively once you go over 50k to the extent that 50k seats would cost 300m and 65k seats would have cost 450m. Those numbers aren't factual and are just used m explain what I meant.

Aye there are many reasons for not building a bigger one, my main point is that the IRFU and FAI being afraid they wouldn't fill it isn't one.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Not true, look at Anfield, or St James Park

About 5000 people in Tallaght Stadium would be louder than those two examples ffs.

cson

Kendra Curved Scanner wrote: »

About 5000 people in Tallaght Stadium would be louder than those two examples ffs.

Did you have your telly on mute again? Tut tut tut.

CHD

baz2009 wrote: »

About 5000 people in Tallaght Stadium would be louder than those two examples ffs.

lol wat.

Anfield has a great and very loud atmosphere.

Dublin_Gunner

Kendra Curved Scanner wrote: »

About 5000 people in Tallaght Stadium would be louder than those two examples ffs.

And thats when there's not even a match on lol

zAbbo

Average attendance for our qualifiers in Croke Park is under 60,000.

So I don't think an increase in capacity is warranted given the planning issues.

Neil3030

I remember Myers writing an article last year ago suggesting that although international rugby matches could attract much larger crowds, the IRFU were happy to cap the capacity at 50k as this would ensure they keep out many of what they'd see as 'undesirables', i.e., anyone not from a traditional blue-blood, middle-and-above class background.

But he was talking out of his hole, the reason the capacity is capped at 50k is for planning reasons. As already pointed out on this thread, the residents behind the north stand objected to anything above a certain height being built.

However I wouldn't completely rule out Croker remaining an option past 2010 though. A bit of cash in someone's pocket and traditions and values can be swept under the carpet quite quickly. It'll be very interesting to see how they act once the additional annual revenue they've thus far been receiving from the internationals suddenly dries up.

The glaringly sensible (and completely obvious) solution is to have matches that will attract a big crowd in Croke Park, and matches that attract smaller crowds in the Aviva. Hopefully that will go on to be the case.

Reginald P. DuM

Even if the really wanted to go higher than 50,000 they were limited by physical, and engineering constraints. The space available to Sisk was only so much, and the City Council would have objected to going higher. So I think this thread is moot really. Just be thankful the capital has another impressive piece of modern architecture to boast and look forward to some glorious sporting and musical moments!!

cson

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

And thats when there's not even a match on lol

Halloween man

Fireworks displays and everything down at the Tallaght Stadium.

Dublin_Gunner

One good thing for definite when Aviva is finished, is that (provided the GAA agree) is that with 2 top class stadia in the Capital, we can actually have a real go for a joint bid to host a major sporting event.

The Euro's, Rugger WC, Finals (CL / Europa) etc etc

And these, couple with our National Sports Campus getting finished (fingers crossed) we could actually have a decent bid at even the Olympics / World Athletics Championships.

cson

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

One good thing for definite when Aviva is finished, is that (provided the GAA agree) is that with 2 top class stadia in the Capital, we can actually have a real go for a joint bid to host a major sporting event.

The Euro's, Rugger WC, Finals (CL / Europa) etc etc

And these, couple with our National Sports Campus getting finished (fingers crossed) we could actually have a decent bid at even the Olympics / World Athletics Championships.

It's a different kettle of fish but the the infrastructure to hold a major tournament is almost there. There are some big GAA Stadiums around the country that if a bit of money was spent developing the grounds and transport links Ireland could seriously harbour ambitions of hosting a European Championships - Semple Stadium is 55k, Gaelic Grounds 50k, Pairc Ui Chaoimh 43k. It wouldn't cost a huge amount in relative terms to properly develop and convert these to all seaters with the required facilities and transport links.

But.... it'll never happen.

Spud83

Neil3030 wrote: »

However I wouldn't completely rule out Croker remaining an option past 2010 though. A bit of cash in someone's pocket and traditions and values can be swept under the carpet quite quickly. It'll be very interesting to see how they act once the additional annual revenue they've thus far been receiving from the internationals suddenly dries up.

The glaringly sensible (and completely obvious) solution is to have matches that will attract a big crowd in Croke Park, and matches that attract smaller crowds in the Aviva. Hopefully that will go on to be the case.

The question will then be come do the FAI or IRFU earn more money by getting 50,000 people into there own stadium, or 80,000 in Croker.

I have no idea how much the GAA get from renting out to the IRFU, and the FAI, but it may not be case of 80,000 people = more cash for the IRFU, and FAI.

As always business will rule this decision. If the IRFU, and FAI will make more from a sold out Aviva, rather than a sold out Croker then they will use Aviva.

Lansdowne Ireland vs Holland 2001. Best atmosphere I have ever been in at any sporting event. Smaller stadiums for the win.

Daysha

The FAI or IRFU will never admit it to being a possibility though. They need to sell those 10-year premium tickets, and telling the country they may move the big matches to Croker is one way not to do it.

artanevilla

cson wrote: »

It's a different kettle of fish but the the infrastructure to hold a major tournament is almost there. There are some big GAA Stadiums around the country that if a bit of money was spent developing the grounds and transport links Ireland could seriously harbour ambitions of hosting a European Championships - Semple Stadium is 55k, Gaelic Grounds 50k, Pairc Ui Chaoimh 43k. It wouldn't cost a huge amount in relative terms to properly develop and convert these to all seaters with the required facilities and transport links.

But.... it'll never happen.

The fact that these stadiums have these large capacities is because they are NOT all seaters, capacity would be significantly reduced by putting seats in.

Fr Tod Umptious

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

One good thing for definite when Aviva is finished, is that (provided the GAA agree) is that with 2 top class stadia in the Capital, we can actually have a real go for a joint bid to host a major sporting event.

The Euro's, Rugger WC, Finals (CL / Europa) etc etc

And these, couple with our National Sports Campus getting finished (fingers crossed) we could actually have a decent bid at even the Olympics / World Athletics Championships.

cson wrote: »

It's a different kettle of fish but the the infrastructure to hold a major tournament is almost there. There are some big GAA Stadiums around the country that if a bit of money was spent developing the grounds and transport links Ireland could seriously harbour ambitions of hosting a European Championships - Semple Stadium is 55k, Gaelic Grounds 50k, Pairc Ui Chaoimh 43k. It wouldn't cost a huge amount in relative terms to properly develop and convert these to all seaters with the required facilities and transport links.

But.... it'll never happen.

Oh no

We have gone from the OP suggesting that the new stadium at Lansdowne Rd may be a tad to small to speculating that we could be part of holding a World Cup, European Championships or Summer Olympics

Why stop there lads, sure with a bit of climate change we might be able to host the winter Olympics in the MacGillycuddy Reeks

The mind boggles

Mushy

Neil3030 wrote: »

However I wouldn't completely rule out Croker remaining an option past 2010 though. A bit of cash in someone's pocket and traditions and values can be swept under the carpet quite quickly. It'll be very interesting to see how they act once the additional annual revenue they've thus far been receiving from the internationals suddenly dries up.

The glaringly sensible (and completely obvious) solution is to have matches that will attract a big crowd in Croke Park, and matches that attract smaller crowds in the Aviva. Hopefully that will go on to be the case.

Only problem is the influence aviva would have over the use of the stadium. They sure as hell wouldn't want the major matches being moved to a stadium without their name everywhere. Only fair enough considering the money they would've paid. Thats the only thing I can see why CP wouldn't be used again and again for major sporting events.

Reginald P. DuM wrote: »

Even if the really wanted to go higher than 50,000 they were limited by physical, and engineering constraints. The space available to Sisk was only so much, and the City Council would have objected to going higher. So I think this thread is moot really. Just be thankful the capital has another impressive piece of modern architecture to boast and look forward to some glorious sporting and musical moments!!

Wasn't there something about moving the stadium around on its axis? As in, imagine the stadium at 90 degrees. Why didn't that work out? Space was it?

cson wrote: »

It's a different kettle of fish but the the infrastructure to hold a major tournament is almost there. There are some big GAA Stadiums around the country that if a bit of money was spent developing the grounds and transport links Ireland could seriously harbour ambitions of hosting a European Championships - Semple Stadium is 55k, Gaelic Grounds 50k, Pairc Ui Chaoimh 43k. It wouldn't cost a huge amount in relative terms to properly develop and convert these to all seaters with the required facilities and transport links.

But.... it'll never happen.

Need a lot more infrastructure in place before Ireland would get a major tournament ourselves. Mainly public transport options, which would have to increased sginificantly. and then theres the question of accommodation. Would there be enough in Dublin for major events?

As for regional GAA stadiums....they need a lot more than 'a bit of money' investment in them to become to standard for anything like your suggesting. Ireland NEEDS covered stands, and that combined with terraces would automatically rule them out. And yet again, transport would be an issue. Say for Semple, from dublin, one, maybe two trains going through it an hour....need lot more. Would be amazing to see though.

As for Landsdowne.....everything I think about it has been said, so wont repeat any more.

Dublin_Gunner

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Oh no

We have gone from the OP suggesting that the new stadium at Lansdowne Rd may be a tad to small to speculating that we could be part of holding a World Cup, European Championships or Summer Olympics

Why stop there lads, sure with a bit of climate change we might be able to host the winter Olympics in the MacGillycuddy Reeks

The mind boggles

Thanks for that fantastic input.

Why couldn't we host any of those, in your astute level-headed opinion?

The infrastructure would be there, and we've already had one failed Euro bid, primarily for not having Aviva built.

noodler

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Thanks for that fantastic input.

Why couldn't we host any of those, in your astute level-headed opinion?

The infrastructure would be there, and we've already had one failed Euro bid, primarily for not having Aviva built.

For a start I don't believe the infrastructure is here.

Lets say 30,000 fans from each team. Times 32. Maybe I am exaggerating the number of people slightly but I think thats way more than Dublin can handle.

Possibly ten years down the line and if we gave assurances that we would improves certain things but a million extra people or thereabouts seems like something that would shut the country down.

Dublin_Gunner

noodler wrote: »

For a start I don't believe the infrastructure is here.

Lets say 30,000 fans from each team. Times 32. Maybe I am exaggerating the number of people slightly but I think thats way more than Dublin can handle.

Possibly ten years down the line and if we gave assurances that we would improves certain things but a million extra people or thereabouts seems like something that would shut the country down.

It wouldn't be anywhere near 30,000 x32 fans. For something like the Euro's, we'd only be a co-host. (note in my original post I stated 'joint' bid).

So maybe 1 group could be hosted here, along with a quarter / semi / final.

Thats only 30,000 x 4, which would be handled here no problem.

sugarman wrote: »

Thats bollox so, 50,000 minus the 10,000 corporate boxes/seats gives us 40,000 for the public taking into acount the 10% away allocation which would be 4,000...

That leaves us with 36,000 for us supporters which is rediculous, the old landsdowne held that FFS.

Considering its being built on the same land, the same flat area, with height restrictions, its hardly surprising, is it? Its roughly the same size as Landsdowne, but there are seats in the corners, where there were no stands before, hence the extra 15k or so more seats.

Reginald P. DuM

Mushy wrote: »

Wasn't there something about moving the stadium around on its axis? As in, imagine the stadium at 90 degrees. Why didn't that work out? Space was it?
.

Space and money, but principally space. Engineers couldn't work miracles, the brief was to get it done to a budget and on a deadline. Oh and in the original site of Landsdown of course, it could of been out in Abbotstown if they wanted to go gigantic. But that would have upset too many folk. I think they have done well considering what they had to tackle. there are other structures in the area that could not have been affected and they have achieved this. I look forward to the opening ceremony. Only negative is they had to prostitute the name, but such is the modern world.

Fr Tod Umptious

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Thanks for that fantastic input.

Why couldn't we host any of those, in your astute level-headed opinion?

The infrastructure would be there, and we've already had one failed Euro bid, primarily for not having Aviva built.

the reason the 2002 bid failed was because the Scots/Irish bit offered 5 (yes 5) stadia in two cities.

The Aviva stadium was not built but a national stadium was promised as part of the plan

All we can offer is two stadia within a few miles of each other, that is something that Uefa and Fifa are not in favour of.

And as another poster said the many 50K + GAA grounds around the country are 50K+ because they are are not all seater.

We have the UEFA Cup final in a few years and that should be the extent of our ambition in the hosting department

noodler

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

It wouldn't be anywhere near 30,000 x32 fans. For something like the Euro's, we'd only be a co-host. (note in my original post I stated 'joint' bid).

So maybe 1 group could be hosted here, along with a quarter / semi / final.

Thats only 30,000 x 4, which would be handled here no problem.

One group? Out of the 8?

What kind of joint bid would that be?

Dublin_Gunner

noodler wrote: »

One group? Out of the 8?

What kind of joint bid would that be?

I was using that as an example, I cannot remember of hand if our last bid included us hosting 1 or 2 groups.

Considering Scotland has quite a few decent stadia, us only hosting 1 or 2 would be expected.

noodler

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I was using that as an example, I cannot remember of hand if our last bid included us hosting 1 or 2 groups.

Considering Scotland has quite a few decent stadia, us only hosting 1 or 2 would be expected.

I am not sure what value we would be as partner with only hosting a quarter tbh - I am sure that didn't help our last bid. I reckon you are right about only hosting two groups in the failed bid.

Could we handle 500,00 people? Including all the Irish who would use the occasion to see matches/party etc?

We are getting a UEFA Cup final in a year or so. Lets see how we handle that.

Fr Tod Umptious

sugarman wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadiums_of_Ireland

There are actually 3 decent GAA stadiums with in and around 50k capacity with 35k seating, an extra 10k temp seats could easly be added if they were to allow football games to be played there.

Have you ever been to any of them ?
It would take loads of work to upgrade the like of Páirc Uí Chaoimh or the Gaelic Ground to anything near UEFA standard

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I was using that as an example, I cannot remember of hand if our last bid included us hosting 1 or 2 groups.

Considering Scotland has quite a few decent stadia, us only hosting 1 or 2 would be expected.

Again the problem is that they are concentrated ina few cities

3 in Galsgow, 3 Edinburgh

Anyway the Euros are up to 24 teams from 2016 so the number of stadia needed is even greater than it was for 2008