Create Competitive Advantage - Include Chinese in Leaving Cert

Sleepy

I don't see how it could hurt to have it as an option (though I'd say the same of virtually all modern languages).

fricatus

Welease wrote: »

We have been doing business globally for many many years, and have staff in China, Russia, India, Vietnam, Malaysia, HK etc etc etc. I only speak English and not once has it been a barrier to running very successful interactions. English is generally accepted as the global language for business and interpreters can be used to suppliment shortfalls. Am I expected to learn the language of every country I do business with?

So, do i think adding it to the Leaving Cert would help us in business? it would not hurt, but given the funding availble and the small amount of schools it would be available in.. No I don't think it would make a massive difference. I would rather see more emphasis on skills that help run/create/innovate business than focusing on a single language that a tiny % of people would use. In my 17+ years of working with non Irish people has never caused my an issues.

The thread title includes the words "competitive advantage". You may have been lucky enough to get by in your career using only English, and I'm in the position now where I only need English, but I only got there by speaking three different languages that eventually got me the experience I needed to get to my present position.

In all three situations, I was up against competitors with more experience and better skills, but I had the languages that were needed for those particular roles. That narrowed down the field to... well, me!!!

I'm sure people from all over the world will do perfectly good business in China and elsewhere for many years by knowing only English, but the Chinese place huge emphasis on personal relationships, and build these up through many late nights drinking mao tai, meeting one another's families, etc. You won't do that through an interpreter.

Understanding your correspondent's language and culture will be what gets you into a preferred position vis-a-vis Chinese business people - basically what will set you apart from all the Indians, Americans, Russians, Brazilians, British, etc., who are working through interpreters. That's where we would gain a competitive advantage. Why we're not doing it now, I really don't understand.

Remember, 100 years ago, French was the world's lingua franca. Now English holds sway, but for how long? In 1909 we hadn't even seen WWI, never mind WWII, which was the key event in making English the dominant world language. Should we assume it will stay that way forever?

Welease

fricatus wrote: »

The thread title includes the words "competitive advantage". You may have been lucky enough to get by in your career using only English, and I'm in the position now where I only need English, but I only got there by speaking three different languages that eventually got me the experience I needed to get to my present position.

In all three situations, I was up against competitors with more experience and better skills, but I had the languages that were needed for those particular roles. That narrowed down the field to... well, me!!!

I'm sure people from all over the world will do perfectly good business in China and elsewhere for many years by knowing only English, but the Chinese place huge emphasis on personal relationships, and build these up through many late nights drinking mao tai, meeting one another's families, etc. You won't do that through an interpreter.

Understanding your correspondent's language and culture will be what gets you into a preferred position vis-a-vis Chinese business people - basically what will set you apart from all the Indians, Americans, Russians, Brazilians, British, etc., who are working through interpreters. That's where we would gain a competitive advantage. Why we're not doing it now, I really don't understand.

Remember, 100 years ago, French was the world's lingua franca. Now English holds sway, but for how long? In 1909 we hadn't even seen WWI, never mind WWII, which was the key event in making English the dominant world language. Should we assume it will stay that way forever?

Well having a better, more cost effective, more innovative products or services also gives you a competitive advantage, it doesn't necessarily have to come from an ability to speak the local language (and i know you were not stating that )

Would it harm to have the language available at Leaving Cert? Absolutely not in my opinion
Do I think that it would present Ireland with an important competitive advantage? Sadly no in my opinion.

The non-European languages have a very low take up across Ireland (probably partly due to availability,partly due to other reasons), so in isolation it would most likely fall into the sub 250 students category as other similar languages. Given that a the majority of students in any language won't leave secondary school business fluent in their chosen language, I don't believe having ~250 pidgeon Mandarin speakers per year (who may not have any inclination of working in business) really gives us much of a competitive advantage over other countries.

Could it be done in harmony with other program to increase success? Yes, probably.
Do i think adding Mandarin alone would achieve anything? Personally, no i don't think so.

Just my 2c

maninasia

Not backed by any facts or anything but the figure of less than 250 students studying the language is extremely low given the interest in Chinese in other countries including the US. That would point to a problem in the grading system or our education system more than anything else if that was the sign-up number.

maninasia

Not backed by any facts or anything but the figure of less than 250 students studying the language is extremely low given the interest in Chinese in other countries including the US. That would point to a problem in the grading system or our education system more than anything else if that was the sign-up number.

leonardjos

A third of bosses want Chinese taught in schools by John Walshe, November 26 2009

Its seems that this idea may be slowing gathering some support...

A THIRD of employers want Irish students to learn Chinese.

New research published yesterday reveals a lack of language skills is hampering business with China.

It found one-in-three employers think Mandarin Chinese should be on the Junior and Leaving Cert curriculum.

The research, undertaken by the Chinese studies department at UCD, reveals almost 13pc of all secondary schools in the UK provide Mandarin teaching, but Chinese is not an option on the Irish curriculum

The research, which was launched by Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin, recommends a longer-term sustainable approach which works towards the development of Chinese as a full-time subject. Learning from the experiences of other countries, it recommends the sharing of teachers between schools, enabling them to be offered full-time contracts so that quality staff are attracted and maintained.

Lanaier

Welease wrote: »

Having just returned from a week in Shanghai, i was surprised at the level of English spoken there, from the offices, hotels, markets, restaurants, shopping malls and bars we visited, not once did I run into anyone who didnt speak fantastic English..

Hotels, markets and shopping malls that cater to foreigners will naturally employ English speakers anywhere in the world.
But if you'd like to discuss something other than price with a seller at a Shanghai market...you'd find their spoken English lacking.

Furthermore, Shanghai is pretty unique...and is widely regarded throughout China as the "least Chinese" of the countries cities.
Indeed it's hardly comparable to anywhere else in the world, in stark contrast to other Chinese cities which tend to be carbon copies of each other.

Here in Beijing, there certainly are foreign individuals who get by with almost zero spoken Chinese, but they live in foreign bubbles, go exclusively to foreign bars/restaurants, only hang out with foreigners, work in a foreign office and in some cases: live in a foreign compound/community.

For the rest of us, a grasp of Chinese is very much a necessity if you wish to be happy here.
When I lived elsewhere in China, English didn't go far beyond "Hello".
I met very technical and professional people who spoke only the most rudimentary of English phrases.

So what does this mean for business?

Well on a basic level;it is common practice in markets for foreigners to be overcharged. It's not malicious, but there is an old pervasive belief that we're all loaded.Just the way it is.
I have on more than one occasion been with a Chinese friend or colleague at a market, and the seller will ask my Chinese friend to help him rip me off, and the laugh it off upon realizing I understand.
I have on more than one occasion bought something at a market with my spoken Chinese and then watched as foreign tourist buys the same thing for ten times the price.
(I warned a couple of them but gave up after a few "but it's still so cheap!" replies.)

On a larger scale;
Imagine you are in a meeting with a manufacturer somewhere in the middle of nong-zhou. The only English speaking person in the room is either your translator or worse: theirs.
You can see now that you would be at a massive disadvantage.

Finally , the most important reason for learning the language would be that it's the best way you can learn the culture. Perhaps the only way.
That in itself may prove to be invaluable knowledge for Irish doing business with China.
Someone who comes here with a great understanding of business but no understanding of the culture here may soon find himself with nothing to show for his work.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

maninasia wrote: »

In fact Chinese can be used quite happily as a means of communication in Asia rather than English as Chinese tourists and businessmen are becoming ubiquitous and there are large numbers of ethnic Chinese worldwide.

I've travelled fairly extensively in Asia, and in no way is this the case. The lingua franca is English, and will probably remain so for quite some time.

Unless you look Asian or actively engage people in Chinese I respectfully doubt you are qualified to make that assessment.
Of course the people there spoke to you in English.
Is it so surprising that they might also speak Chinese when you're not around?
I'd imagine that in many areas the level of Chinese spoken is higher than the level of English.
As Maninasia said, there are large numbers of ethnic Chinese worldwide, especially in Asia. And if you believe Chinese businessmen and tourists speak primarily in English when in other Asian countries you are gravely mistaken.
I have friends from several south east asian countries who have been speaking Mandarin since before they went to school.

maninasia

Read this link to understand the vast number of Chinese speakers in Asia. China is the fastest growing source of tourists worldwide, coming to a city near you. If you go to the World Cup this year be surprised to see the number of Chinese there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

Continent/Country ↓ Articles about Chinese population ↓ Overseas Chinese Population ↓ Year
of the data ↓ % of local
population ↓ % of Global Overseas
Chinese population ↓
Asia 30,976,784 2006 0.8% 78.7%
Indonesia Chinese Indonesian 7.5 million 2005[30] 3.1% 11.7%
Malaysia Malaysian Chinese, Peranakan 7.1 million 2008[31] 26.0% 12.1%
Thailand Thai Chinese 7.0 million 2005[30] 14% 11.7%
Singapore Chinese Singaporean 2.7 million 2009[32] 74.2% 4.3%
Vietnam Hoa, Ngái, San Diu 1.2 million 2005[30] 3% 2%-3%
Philippines Chinese Filipino, Tornatras, Sangley 1.1 million 2005[30] 2% 2.4%
Myanmar Burmese Chinese, Panthay 1.1 million 2005[30] 3% 2.1%
Japan Chinese in Japan 655,377 1 2008[33] 0.5% 1.7%
South Korea Chinese in South Korea 624,994 2 2009[34] 0.2% 0.5%
Cambodia Chinese Cambodian 343,855 2005[30] 1.2% 0.87%
India Chinese in India 189,470 2005[30] 0.02% 0.5%
Laos Laotian Chinese 185,765 2005[30] 1% 0.5%


Amhran Nua, you were saying?

maninasia

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Thank you for your post, China Bureau of Happy Truth.

China is now confirmed as the world's second largest economy, ahead of Japan. Anybody still want to argue it's useless to learn Chinese?

Sponge Bob

maninasia wrote: »

China is now confirmed as the world's second largest economy, ahead of Japan. Anybody still want to argue it's useless to learn Chinese?

We have been teaching French for 40 years ...more or less universally...and the quality of spoken and written French in Ireland is ****e.

What makes you think we will get Chinese right ???

maninasia

In my experience it is the quality of schools and teachers that needs to be addressed. My experience of learning French was very poor, I agree. But I know people who went to different schools and private schools, obviously they had a good chance to pick up the language. Visiting the country is also important to get a chance to use it. Let's just say some of us are more equal than others.

But let's not mix the two issues together for the point of this thread although they are connected.

The simple fact is learning Chinese will give anybody a lot more career choices in the future as it has for me. It is the world's largest manufacturer after the US and may one day be the world's largest market. To give an example from the service industry, tourists from China are the number one growing tourist market worldwide. Most of them don't speak English.

It is ridiculous to see Latin, Greek and Arabic there but no Chinese.

edanto

I agree with the OP that Chinese should be available for the Leaving Cert.

A good amount of this thread was side tracked with disagreements about the amount of trade/exports, or the number of language speakers, but there can't be any serious dispute that Chinese is an important language internationally. There are plenty of other changes I'd like made to the Leaving Cert syllabus, but let's keep the focus on Chinese Mandarin.

It's a fair point to make that the per capita GDP in China is very low, and that the spectacular growth won't continue forever. But by the same token, our country is broken, badly in debt, and we need exporting entrepreneurs to get things moving again. China has a growing middle class - hundreds of millions of people to whom we can sell things. And to understand them, to sell to them, it's going to be better to speak their language.

We are trying to position ourselves internationally as a place with highly skilled, nimble and multi-lingual graduates, to attract the kind of digital economy jobs that we hope will get us out of this mess. Again, this will need Irish people that speak all major international languages, and of course Mandarin is one of those, difficult as it is to learn.

In that context, I'm certain that Chinese should replace Hebrew on the Leaving Certificate syllabus.

RichardAnd

guys let me just point out something. Irish is a mandatory subject for 12 years yet only a fraction of people learn it. Why do you think this is?

Of course, most people would say it's because it's taught wrong. It's because of bad teachers and even a few would probably blame the bankers. However, the fact is that whilst our education system is all about memorising not understanding, "no one" speaks Irish because no one wants to learn it.

Making Chinese mandatory will be the same. Kids will memorise off books of stuff, not understand a word of it and then spew it up at the leaving cert for points. Learning a language is like learning a musical instrument; you won't do it unless you really want to.

edanto

I'm not suggesting making Chinese mandatory. I'm suggesting making it AVAILABLE as an OPTION at Leaving Cert, where currently it's not an option.

There are a raft of problems with the education system in this country, but this discussion is not about them. It's not even about the solutions to those problems, simply a discussion on whether or not Mandarin Chinese would be a good addition to the menu of subjects that a Leaving Cert student can choose from.

Do you think it should be an option?

population

I would say include it as an option. This is an interesting thread for me because I live in Italy and I speak reasonable Italian which I hope to have complete fluency in within the next year or so. Now I am not really interested in staying here forever so therefore Italian has a limited use for me, so I have been considering what are my options for another language.

I was decent at German in school and reckon I could pick it up again quite quickly but tbh anytime I am in Germany, people speak near fluent English with me. So I must say that due to Chinas increased economic standing, I too have been thinking of looking at learning the language and in hindsight rather wish that the option had of been available in school. Though of course that is not to suggest I would have actually chosen it as I barely recognise 16yr old me and some of his clueless decisions past:o

liammur

RichardAnd wrote: »

guys let me just point out something. Irish is a mandatory subject for 12 years yet only a fraction of people learn it. Why do you think this is?

Of course, most people would say it's because it's taught wrong. It's because of bad teachers and even a few would probably blame the bankers. .

Correct, it's always the bad tradesman who is blaming his tools.

maninasia

Haha but tools would be the right word for some of the teachers I had in school, barely functional if they even turned up to class, that's the teacher, not the students! There are very poor teachers in the public system in Ireland and they never get rooted out, plus the teaching method is not great either.

You've got to give kids a chance to learn and see the language in action in that culture. So this is where the parents come in, they've got to support that whatever way they can. Education is a two way street. So you want kids to learn French, put them in a French summer camp..they will learn! Want to learn Chinese, go to China and travel around the hinterland or work there for a year or two and bring your kids with you. Send them to an after school program. Yes that's what it takes. The reality is nobody will really be fluent until they live, study and work in a country..but getting a head start sure is useful.

As for people speaking English in China, it is not as prevalent as Europe but it is getting there quickly with the tertiary educated, this is a global trend. However there is a VERY large internal market in China so there will always be people there who concentrate on that (internal market) and have poor or no English skills and many of the engineers etc. would have no English.

Learning Chinese is an option for the 21st century student, a tool to see into a different culture and a weapon to break into a successful career. Tool up your kids.

kuntboy

I thought Chinese markets were highly restricted for foreign goods and they steal designs and copy them all anyway?

maninasia

The picture is a lot more complicated than that. They need quality stuff from wherever they can get it, in many cases they deliberately choose foreign made goods for key components due to higher quality guarantee. If they have purchasing power and it's for the consumer a foreign brand has more cache.
China is an absolutely massive country..people need to realise how big it really is and how large the market is there for pretty much any good or service.

dermo88

Mandarin is not only useful for China alone. Its useful for Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore also. But the most commonly spoken dialect amongst the wealth creating sector in Chinese society is not Mandarin.

Its Cantonese.

I'd recommend that Mandarin is taught first. Mainly in written form, and at a young age. It is rock hard later on in life. I know fluent speakers of 4 dialects who are unable to write chinese.

China is the new wild west. Its where America was in 1920, a nascent superpower, about to forge ahead. How long that lasts is anyones guess. Japans ascent lasted 40 years between 1950 and 1990, and it has stagnated since. But its not got the same rule of law that the United States had.....so its a messy territory for now, and that won't change anytime soon.

China will face problems. But it is the overseas Chinese community who hold the keys to commercial power and influence. It is very hard to break into that group.

maninasia

I don't really agree with the overseas Chinese bit. They are actually seen as outsiders in China and rightly so. To get into the Chinese market fully you really need to know the right locals. Local Chinese are actually quite diverse in their views, they are quite humble and hard working in the main and are curious to know more about outside (the educated young people). There's also a big difference between different regions of China, their attitudes to business, life etc.

Also Taiwanese/Fujianese would be very useful in the business community, not just Cantonese. But really speaking Mandarin is more than enough and it is the language of business and communication overall

The overseas Chinese have to go through the same process of getting into the market there, they are ripped off just as much but they have more connections and faster entry due to language and history.

kuntboy

maninasia wrote: »

The picture is a lot more complicated than that. They need quality stuff from wherever they can get it, in many cases they deliberately choose foreign made goods for key components due to higher quality guarantee. If they have purchasing power and it's for the consumer a foreign brand has more cache.
China is an absolutely massive country..people need to realise how big it really is and how large the market is there for pretty much any good or service.

But they re-engineer those key components and then dump their western supplier. Soon their goods will rival the west's in quality and certainly in price. For example, they're planning a move into the jet engine industry in the next few years.

maninasia

Yes they are definitely going up in the value stream and the types of system they can build, with so many multionationals only too eager to site major parts of their production and transfer the technology as part of bidding contracts its made it faster for them.

But there's no way they can do everything well and there is still a preference for many things to come in from outside, better built, quality guarantee. Many industry niches are dominated by 2 or 3 companies, it is very hard to get past their lock on the market, their decades of expertise, especially in niche markets where experience, reputation and quality control count a huge amount. Basically it's easy to invest in a factory to churn out stuff if you think the market is very big and fairly open, if the market is fairly small and difficult to penetrate..not so easy.

An example of why Chinese would buy from outside is that they are willing buy more expensive German made machinery, they know it is rock solid and will last for decades, in the long-run it will save them money. Do I ever see the Chinese making better automated equipment than the Germans, frankly no. The Germans will always have a market in the medium to high end.

So Chinese companies will start to get more prominent, quality is improving quickly, but will not dominate all industries and they have a disadvantage due to cultural background little experience in designing 'whole' systems, huge lack of quality control and in good marketing and in making stuff that's built to last.

dunsandin

Worse case scenario, if the whole improving our economic prospects thing didn't work out, it would come in handy when nipping in to get the auld sweet and sour chicken with crispy noodles, wouldn't it. And that alone would make it more usefull than teaching them bleedin IRISH.:D But I can see a few problem with getting Mrs O'Faoillon the languages teacher to adjust to the conversion-she'd be 90 before she was qualified to teach it. Most of my kids teachers struggle with Pythagoras, so I can see getting up to speed on the old mandarin raising a few eyebrows down here.