Create Competitive Advantage - Include Chinese in Leaving Cert

maninasia

Admittedly hard to find exact figures...here is an article showing MONTLY export figures from Taiwan. The difference is that the companies are actually making and producing high quality stuff from local companies, the Irish GDP figure is false as it includes money being channeled in from other countries in the EU and then sent back to multinational HQs in the US.

http://www.cn-c114.net/579/a452940.html

Now here are the Irish figures


http://finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1012368.shtml

This article illustrates the problem with misleading Irish export/GDP figures
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1017959.shtml

From the first article above you can see the enormous industrial power and flow of money and goods in and out of a small nation such as Taiwan. It also shows how small Ireland's economy is in relation in true terms. The same can be said for Korea and for individual regions in China such as Shenzhen and Shanghai area etc. I want to illustrate the economic potential of learning Chinese (many Korean and Japanese businessmen are learning Chinese also) and at the same time the benefit of increasing links with these increasingly rich and powerful regions. You can note from the figures that China is quickly becoming the number 1 trading partner and importer of products from other countries in Asia. The world is changing and the US is not the consumer powerhouse it was.

Flamed Diving

We have heard that one before.

By the way, the only thing that is misleading about Ireland's GDP figures is the role that financial services plays, but not manufacturing. It does not matter whether the money is repatriated or not, the point is that goods were/are manufactured in Ireland and exported to other countries. You are being disingenuous, in that respect.

maninasia

Wow a report from 1994, well since then China has truly become one of the largest economies in the world, well on track to surpass Japan in next couple of years. I think the growth of the Chinese economy has surprised many including the Chinese themselves. Japan managed to grow quickly and still maintains a high standard of living and income for it's citizens. The Asian economies are based on capitalist systems with businesses run professionally by entrepeneurs, they cannot even remotely be compared to the Soviet Union or Warsaw Pact. In addition they have their own industrial concentrations and business culture and cannot be simply lunmped together.
The computer you are using was mostly developed in Asia, as is your mobile and your telephone and probably your car too I don't remember Soviet made goods and services being too popular during the cold war, do you?


Not sure the point of linking to that really, you have also ignored everything I wrote.

The point is not Asia will rule the world, the point is it will be a very important part of the globalised world and almost certainly the biggest part of the pie business wise in the 21st century. You want to choose one way to get ahead, learning Chinese is a no-brainer.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

MikeC101

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Also I'd imagine that those figures are skewed a bit, given that people want to maximise points in the Leaving Cert rather than just learn for learnings sake, I'd think a significant amount of people taking those languages would have been native (or fluent) speakers anyway.

leonardjos

Admittedly the take-up would be small initially, and it would take time to develop as a subject of choice. But that doesn't take away from the point that we should be aiming to give our students the best chance to exploit the next big wave of economic opportunities. It would be up to individual schools and students to choose whether to study Chinese or not.

This is an interesting opinion piece from the Irish Times on 30th Nov 2009(slightly more recent than 1994!).
To export our way out of recession we will have to go after emerging markets by Pat McArdle

The US will no longer be the engine of growth; it will struggle to average 2 per cent a year from now on. Consumer spending is likely to be the weak point once the recovery effects, such as depleting inventories and fiscal and monetary stimuli wane.

So wherein lies the future?

China provides only part of the answer. It has had its own Tiger, or should that be Panda, experience, recording an astonishing 11.5 per cent average growth in 2000-2008.

This was driven by consumer spending which gradually rose to high double digits, massive increases in bank lending to state-owned companies, and large government subsidies for car and home appliance purchases.

China is likely to remain a global force, accounting for almost 30 per cent of future world expansion, but its GDP rates are projected to slow to 7.5 per cent.

However, even at this reduced rate, its contribution to the global growth rate will be four times that of the US and 12 times that of EU-15.

Pat McArdle arrives at the same conclusion as I did:

The message is: go east young man; or at the very least, make Mandarin compulsory in the school curriculum.

Compulsory is probably a bit strong, but I say at least make it an option.

Flamed Diving

maninasia wrote: »

Wow a report from 1994.

You missed the point completely.

Flamed Diving

leonardjos wrote: »

Pat McArdle arrives at the same conclusion as I did.

If there was ever a reason not to support this idea...

starbelgrade

Is teaching Chinese in schools a good idea? It might be, but considering the bog standard teaching & learning abilities of any languages in our schools, I don't think that attempting to teach or learn what is essentially a very difficult language to read & write, a very practical one.

You'd be better off teaching kids how to cook or fix a broken boiler. They'd get more use out of it.

Welease

I'm not sure there would be much point.. The general language of business nowadays is English.
Having just returned from a week in Shanghai, i was surprised at the level of English spoken there, from the offices, hotels, markets, restaurants, shopping malls and bars we visited, not once did I run into anyone who didnt speak fantastic English.. Sure if I had gone to more remote regions or dealt with folks in other industries I am sure i would have met some, but from my small experience of China, doing business in English was definately not a barrier.

TheCandystripes

why are the irish so bad at learning non-native languages?

really in any other european country teens would be fluent in english, irish, french/german/spanish but here there seems to be a culture of resisting anything seen as 'different and i include irish in that.

Flamed Diving

TheCandystripes wrote: »

why are the irish so bad at learning non-native languages?

really in any other european country teens would be fluent in english, irish, french/german/spanish but here there seems to be a culture of resisting anything seen as 'differen't and i include irish in that.

A similar phenomenon exists in any English-speaking nation. Can you think of any reason why?

starbelgrade

TheCandystripes wrote: »

why are the irish so bad at learning non-native languages?

really in any other european country teens would be fluent in english, irish, french/german/spanish but here there seems to be a culture of resisting anything seen as 'differen't and i include irish in that.

Some of it comes down to poor teaching & some comes down to not having the necessity. Europeans like many teenagers worldwide, learn english because it gives them a competitive advantage, one that's generally not needed by native english speakers.

Apart from that, they also want to know what half the world are talking/ singing/ writing about. Not to mention that a huge percentage of the internet is in english.

It's an old language for a modern world.

johnny_rambo

starbelgrade wrote: »

Is teaching Chinese in schools a good idea? It might be, but considering the bog standard teaching & learning abilities of any languages in our schools, I don't think that attempting to teach or learn what is essentially a very difficult language to read & write, a very practical one.

You'd be better off teaching kids how to cook or fix a broken boiler. They'd get more use out of it.

So would you say that there is no point learning another language if you're a native English speaker?

maninasia

Welease wrote: »

I'm not sure there would be much point.. The general language of business nowadays is English.
Having just returned from a week in Shanghai, i was surprised at the level of English spoken there, from the offices, hotels, markets, restaurants, shopping malls and bars we visited, not once did I run into anyone who didnt speak fantastic English.. Sure if I had gone to more remote regions or dealt with folks in other industries I am sure i would have met some, but from my small experience of China, doing business in English was definately not a barrier.

That's Shanghai, the most international city in China. Even if you go to Beijing you will find this is certainly not the case.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand, you really want to SELL something or understand a market you should speak their language. Anybody with this language ability will be very valuable. I should know, I got my current position from this very ability. I spent the last week in Beijing dealing with professional educated people in the scientific field, their English was very poor except for one or two 'agents' or intermediaries. If you don't speak the language you stand an inherent disadvantage from pricing, contract negotiation, relationship building and self sufficiency. I both market products and source products from China. I have to handle a lot of our company's business because the communication often breaks down and I am also able to build relationships and check facts at a much deeper level than any of my colleagues.

China in the next couple of decades could be the world's biggest market. The negativity is tiresome.

Welease

maninasia wrote: »

That's Shanghai, the most international city in China. Even if you go to Beijing you will find this is certainly not the case.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand, you really want to SELL something or understand a market you should speak their language. Anybody with this language ability will be very valuable. I should know, I got my current position from this very ability. I spent the last week in Beijing dealing with professional educated people in the scientific field, their English was very poor except for one or two 'agents' or intermediaries. If you don't speak the language you stand an inherent disadvantage from pricing, contract negotiation, relationship building and self sufficiency. I both market products and source products from China. I have to handle a lot of our company's business because the communication often breaks down and I am also able to build relationships and check facts at a much deeper level than any of my colleagues.

China in the next couple of decades could be the world's biggest market. The negativity is tiresome.

Who said it was diffiucult to understand or was being negative?

I said in MY experience it was not a barrier to ME doing business, and if i had gone to another area or worked in a different industry it might have been different as I stated.

We have been doing business globally for many many years, and have staff in China, Russia, India, Vietnam, Malaysia, HK etc etc etc. I only speak English and not once has it been a barrier to running very successful interactions. English is generally accepted as the global language for business and interpreters can be used to suppliment shortfalls. Am I expected to learn the language of every country I do business with?

So, do i think adding it to the Leaving Cert would help us in business? it would not hurt, but given the funding availble and the small amount of schools it would be available in.. No I don't think it would make a massive difference. I would rather see more emphasis on skills that help run/create/innovate business than focusing on a single language that a tiny % of people would use. In my 17+ years of working with non Irish people has never caused my an issues.

Flamed Diving

maninasia wrote: »

That's Shanghai, the most international city in China. Even if you go to Beijing you will find this is certainly not the case.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand, you really want to SELL something or understand a market you should speak their language. Anybody with this language ability will be very valuable. I should know, I got my current position from this very ability. I spent the last week in Beijing dealing with professional educated people in the scientific field, their English was very poor except for one or two 'agents' or intermediaries. If you don't speak the language you stand an inherent disadvantage from pricing, contract negotiation, relationship building and self sufficiency. I both market products and source products from China. I have to handle a lot of our company's business because the communication often breaks down and I am also able to build relationships and check facts at a much deeper level than any of my colleagues.

China in the next couple of decades could be the world's biggest market. The negativity is tiresome.

Thank you for your post, China Bureau of Happy Truth.

plissken

TheCandystripes wrote: »

really in any other european country teens would be fluent in english, irish, french/german/spanish but here there seems to be a culture of resisting anything seen as 'different and i include irish in that.

Yes those Irish speaking Spaniards really are everywhere :(:(

maninasia

The investment in teaching Chinese wouldn't be anymore or less than any other language on the curriculum and it should be included on the curriculum as one of the world's major languages. Ancient Greek and Latin could easily be shelved and the resources put to better use.

To get back to the point of creating competitive advantage...yes you can get by without speaking Chinese but this has no advantage, the point is to create some competitive advantage which the ability to speak certainly would. How big? It depends on both the individual and the country's policies and economic conditions that prevail.

maninasia

The investment in teaching Chinese wouldn't be anymore or less than any other language on the curriculum and it should be included on the curriculum as one of the world's major languages. Ancient Greek and Latin could easily be shelved and the resources put to better use.

To get back to the point of creating competitive advantage...yes you can get by without speaking Chinese but this has no advantage, the point is to create some competitive advantage which the ability to speak certainly would. How big? It depends on both the individual and the country's policies and economic conditions that prevail. It may not be significant compared to other factors but at least it gives our citizens more choice in their education and future prospects.

Do I think teaching Chinese rather than for example German or Russian would give a better economic output?.I don't know for sure but I would say it is possible, simply because there are few Chinese speakers in Europe as a percentage of population for 10s of millions of native speakers of other European languages. I think all foreign languages and our own native language could be taught far far better.

Sleepy

I don't see how it could hurt to have it as an option (though I'd say the same of virtually all modern languages).

fricatus

Welease wrote: »

We have been doing business globally for many many years, and have staff in China, Russia, India, Vietnam, Malaysia, HK etc etc etc. I only speak English and not once has it been a barrier to running very successful interactions. English is generally accepted as the global language for business and interpreters can be used to suppliment shortfalls. Am I expected to learn the language of every country I do business with?

So, do i think adding it to the Leaving Cert would help us in business? it would not hurt, but given the funding availble and the small amount of schools it would be available in.. No I don't think it would make a massive difference. I would rather see more emphasis on skills that help run/create/innovate business than focusing on a single language that a tiny % of people would use. In my 17+ years of working with non Irish people has never caused my an issues.

The thread title includes the words "competitive advantage". You may have been lucky enough to get by in your career using only English, and I'm in the position now where I only need English, but I only got there by speaking three different languages that eventually got me the experience I needed to get to my present position.

In all three situations, I was up against competitors with more experience and better skills, but I had the languages that were needed for those particular roles. That narrowed down the field to... well, me!!!

I'm sure people from all over the world will do perfectly good business in China and elsewhere for many years by knowing only English, but the Chinese place huge emphasis on personal relationships, and build these up through many late nights drinking mao tai, meeting one another's families, etc. You won't do that through an interpreter.

Understanding your correspondent's language and culture will be what gets you into a preferred position vis-a-vis Chinese business people - basically what will set you apart from all the Indians, Americans, Russians, Brazilians, British, etc., who are working through interpreters. That's where we would gain a competitive advantage. Why we're not doing it now, I really don't understand.

Remember, 100 years ago, French was the world's lingua franca. Now English holds sway, but for how long? In 1909 we hadn't even seen WWI, never mind WWII, which was the key event in making English the dominant world language. Should we assume it will stay that way forever?

Welease

fricatus wrote: »

The thread title includes the words "competitive advantage". You may have been lucky enough to get by in your career using only English, and I'm in the position now where I only need English, but I only got there by speaking three different languages that eventually got me the experience I needed to get to my present position.

In all three situations, I was up against competitors with more experience and better skills, but I had the languages that were needed for those particular roles. That narrowed down the field to... well, me!!!

I'm sure people from all over the world will do perfectly good business in China and elsewhere for many years by knowing only English, but the Chinese place huge emphasis on personal relationships, and build these up through many late nights drinking mao tai, meeting one another's families, etc. You won't do that through an interpreter.

Understanding your correspondent's language and culture will be what gets you into a preferred position vis-a-vis Chinese business people - basically what will set you apart from all the Indians, Americans, Russians, Brazilians, British, etc., who are working through interpreters. That's where we would gain a competitive advantage. Why we're not doing it now, I really don't understand.

Remember, 100 years ago, French was the world's lingua franca. Now English holds sway, but for how long? In 1909 we hadn't even seen WWI, never mind WWII, which was the key event in making English the dominant world language. Should we assume it will stay that way forever?

Well having a better, more cost effective, more innovative products or services also gives you a competitive advantage, it doesn't necessarily have to come from an ability to speak the local language (and i know you were not stating that )

Would it harm to have the language available at Leaving Cert? Absolutely not in my opinion
Do I think that it would present Ireland with an important competitive advantage? Sadly no in my opinion.

The non-European languages have a very low take up across Ireland (probably partly due to availability,partly due to other reasons), so in isolation it would most likely fall into the sub 250 students category as other similar languages. Given that a the majority of students in any language won't leave secondary school business fluent in their chosen language, I don't believe having ~250 pidgeon Mandarin speakers per year (who may not have any inclination of working in business) really gives us much of a competitive advantage over other countries.

Could it be done in harmony with other program to increase success? Yes, probably.
Do i think adding Mandarin alone would achieve anything? Personally, no i don't think so.

Just my 2c

maninasia

Not backed by any facts or anything but the figure of less than 250 students studying the language is extremely low given the interest in Chinese in other countries including the US. That would point to a problem in the grading system or our education system more than anything else if that was the sign-up number.

maninasia

Not backed by any facts or anything but the figure of less than 250 students studying the language is extremely low given the interest in Chinese in other countries including the US. That would point to a problem in the grading system or our education system more than anything else if that was the sign-up number.

leonardjos

A third of bosses want Chinese taught in schools by John Walshe, November 26 2009

Its seems that this idea may be slowing gathering some support...

A THIRD of employers want Irish students to learn Chinese.

New research published yesterday reveals a lack of language skills is hampering business with China.

It found one-in-three employers think Mandarin Chinese should be on the Junior and Leaving Cert curriculum.

The research, undertaken by the Chinese studies department at UCD, reveals almost 13pc of all secondary schools in the UK provide Mandarin teaching, but Chinese is not an option on the Irish curriculum

The research, which was launched by Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin, recommends a longer-term sustainable approach which works towards the development of Chinese as a full-time subject. Learning from the experiences of other countries, it recommends the sharing of teachers between schools, enabling them to be offered full-time contracts so that quality staff are attracted and maintained.

Lanaier

Welease wrote: »

Having just returned from a week in Shanghai, i was surprised at the level of English spoken there, from the offices, hotels, markets, restaurants, shopping malls and bars we visited, not once did I run into anyone who didnt speak fantastic English..

Hotels, markets and shopping malls that cater to foreigners will naturally employ English speakers anywhere in the world.
But if you'd like to discuss something other than price with a seller at a Shanghai market...you'd find their spoken English lacking.

Furthermore, Shanghai is pretty unique...and is widely regarded throughout China as the "least Chinese" of the countries cities.
Indeed it's hardly comparable to anywhere else in the world, in stark contrast to other Chinese cities which tend to be carbon copies of each other.

Here in Beijing, there certainly are foreign individuals who get by with almost zero spoken Chinese, but they live in foreign bubbles, go exclusively to foreign bars/restaurants, only hang out with foreigners, work in a foreign office and in some cases: live in a foreign compound/community.

For the rest of us, a grasp of Chinese is very much a necessity if you wish to be happy here.
When I lived elsewhere in China, English didn't go far beyond "Hello".
I met very technical and professional people who spoke only the most rudimentary of English phrases.

So what does this mean for business?

Well on a basic level;it is common practice in markets for foreigners to be overcharged. It's not malicious, but there is an old pervasive belief that we're all loaded.Just the way it is.
I have on more than one occasion been with a Chinese friend or colleague at a market, and the seller will ask my Chinese friend to help him rip me off, and the laugh it off upon realizing I understand.
I have on more than one occasion bought something at a market with my spoken Chinese and then watched as foreign tourist buys the same thing for ten times the price.
(I warned a couple of them but gave up after a few "but it's still so cheap!" replies.)

On a larger scale;
Imagine you are in a meeting with a manufacturer somewhere in the middle of nong-zhou. The only English speaking person in the room is either your translator or worse: theirs.
You can see now that you would be at a massive disadvantage.

Finally , the most important reason for learning the language would be that it's the best way you can learn the culture. Perhaps the only way.
That in itself may prove to be invaluable knowledge for Irish doing business with China.
Someone who comes here with a great understanding of business but no understanding of the culture here may soon find himself with nothing to show for his work.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

maninasia wrote: »

In fact Chinese can be used quite happily as a means of communication in Asia rather than English as Chinese tourists and businessmen are becoming ubiquitous and there are large numbers of ethnic Chinese worldwide.

I've travelled fairly extensively in Asia, and in no way is this the case. The lingua franca is English, and will probably remain so for quite some time.

Unless you look Asian or actively engage people in Chinese I respectfully doubt you are qualified to make that assessment.
Of course the people there spoke to you in English.
Is it so surprising that they might also speak Chinese when you're not around?
I'd imagine that in many areas the level of Chinese spoken is higher than the level of English.
As Maninasia said, there are large numbers of ethnic Chinese worldwide, especially in Asia. And if you believe Chinese businessmen and tourists speak primarily in English when in other Asian countries you are gravely mistaken.
I have friends from several south east asian countries who have been speaking Mandarin since before they went to school.

maninasia

Read this link to understand the vast number of Chinese speakers in Asia. China is the fastest growing source of tourists worldwide, coming to a city near you. If you go to the World Cup this year be surprised to see the number of Chinese there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese

Continent/Country ↓ Articles about Chinese population ↓ Overseas Chinese Population ↓ Year
of the data ↓ % of local
population ↓ % of Global Overseas
Chinese population ↓
Asia 30,976,784 2006 0.8% 78.7%
Indonesia Chinese Indonesian 7.5 million 2005[30] 3.1% 11.7%
Malaysia Malaysian Chinese, Peranakan 7.1 million 2008[31] 26.0% 12.1%
Thailand Thai Chinese 7.0 million 2005[30] 14% 11.7%
Singapore Chinese Singaporean 2.7 million 2009[32] 74.2% 4.3%
Vietnam Hoa, Ngái, San Diu 1.2 million 2005[30] 3% 2%-3%
Philippines Chinese Filipino, Tornatras, Sangley 1.1 million 2005[30] 2% 2.4%
Myanmar Burmese Chinese, Panthay 1.1 million 2005[30] 3% 2.1%
Japan Chinese in Japan 655,377 1 2008[33] 0.5% 1.7%
South Korea Chinese in South Korea 624,994 2 2009[34] 0.2% 0.5%
Cambodia Chinese Cambodian 343,855 2005[30] 1.2% 0.87%
India Chinese in India 189,470 2005[30] 0.02% 0.5%
Laos Laotian Chinese 185,765 2005[30] 1% 0.5%


Amhran Nua, you were saying?

maninasia

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Thank you for your post, China Bureau of Happy Truth.

China is now confirmed as the world's second largest economy, ahead of Japan. Anybody still want to argue it's useless to learn Chinese?

Sponge Bob

maninasia wrote: »

China is now confirmed as the world's second largest economy, ahead of Japan. Anybody still want to argue it's useless to learn Chinese?

We have been teaching French for 40 years ...more or less universally...and the quality of spoken and written French in Ireland is ****e.

What makes you think we will get Chinese right ???