Tweedy Group - The Aftermath

dayshah

Adyx wrote: »

Certainly, but that was nothing to do with the Tweedy Group.

To be honest no matter what happens or who takes over, we're not going to see any huge change in Waterford's night life. The last number of years have shown that there is no market for more than one club here any more.

I agree that there will be no big changes, but Waterford is more than a 1 club town.

First off there is the Forum, which is sort of a club. Also, doesn't Revolution now have a club, so that plus Ruby's would make 3.

Tweedys problem was that they had locked themselves into certain overheads, the most obvious being the mortgage for Muldoons/pOxygen that cost close to €10million in 2005. This was near the peak of the boom (but before the complete insanity). Suppose you could be the same now for €4million. This means your mortgage overhead would be 60% less. I think a fall this big for a commercial property is realistic.

Also a new operator could renegotiate other contracts, taking light of the recession, and use the savings to reduce entrance fees/prices and boosting customer numbers.

Of course the examiner would have looked into these sort of things.

Ledger

I'm sure that Muldoons is another name on the list of bad bad business moves on the part of TG, he was blinded by his need to get the Kavanaghs out of the junction what an OBSCENE WASTE OF 10 MILLION EURO. I dont want to start repeating points that have been stated before but i feel the point needs to be embedded in some dissilusioned people's minds. The fact is Bob made some very costly mistakes in his business life and because of said mistakes it now looks like he is about to lose everything he has, The Ks could see there was something bad on the horizon and got rid of a failing asset at an exorbitant price, the laughed all the way to the bank just stopping off at Harveys on the way.



Ledger

dayshah

Ledger wrote: »

I'm sure that Muldoons is another name on the list of bad bad business moves on the part of TG, he was blinded by his need to get the Kavanaghs out of the junction what an OBSCENE WASTE OF 10 MILLION EURO. I dont want to start repeating points that have been stated before but i feel the point needs to be embedded in some dissilusioned people's minds. The fact is Bob made some very costly mistakes in his business life and because of said mistakes it now looks like he is about to lose everything he has, The Ks could see there was something bad on the horizon and got rid of a failing asset at an exorbitant price, the laughed all the way to the bank just stopping off at Harveys on the way.



Ledger

I do think there is a bit of obsession about that junction, and people not willing to walk. People do walk to Harveys, which is roughly the same distance as Reginald's Tower from the junction. Also I really hated the name "John Street Village".

Perhaps Muldoons should open as a normal bar rather than a late bar.

Adyx

dayshah wrote: »

I agree that there will be no big changes, but Waterford is more than a 1 club town.

First off there is the Forum, which is sort of a club. Also, doesn't Revolution now have a club, so that plus Ruby's would make 3.

Tweedys problem was that they had locked themselves into certain overheads, the most obvious being the mortgage for Muldoons/pOxygen that cost close to €10million in 2005. This was near the peak of the boom (but before the complete insanity). Suppose you could be the same now for €4million. This means your mortgage overhead would be 60% less. I think a fall this big for a commercial property is realistic.

Also a new operator could renegotiate other contracts, taking light of the recession, and use the savings to reduce entrance fees/prices and boosting customer numbers.

Of course the examiner would have looked into these sort of things.

Apparently he didn't (or not to the proper extent at least) and this was one of the problems Bob had with him.

I usually discount the Forum as a club because it doesn't have "mainstream" appeal. As for Escape my point is that while we may have these clubs, they're no good to anyone if they're empty. I don't know how Escape is doing now but the last time I was in there, we were the only ones there. Like wise Ruby's is never full any more even on a Saturday let alone midweek.

This drop in people going out isn't a sudden thing that arrived with the recession. Waterford's night life has been dying for at least 5 years. There used to be 4 clubs and two late bars in that area and now you can't even fill one club on a Saturday night. As for turning Muldoons into a normal bar, I would say it's too big for that and there is no market for normal bars any more because people are going out so late.

savic04

well there is also a new club space at the back of Revolution called The Basement which has dance music every Saturday (or most saturdays) and it was jam packed last Saturday night... and has been farily busy the few nights I have been in there.... so I guess people will go to events they want, maybe the town had too many cheesy commercial music type spots, and thats what people are sick of ?

dayshah

savic04 wrote: »

well there is also a new club space at the back of Revolution called The Basement which has dance music every Saturday (or most saturdays) and it was jam packed last Saturday night... and has been farily busy the few nights I have been in there.... so I guess people will go to events they want, maybe the town had too many cheesy commercial music type spots, and thats what people are sick of ?

I think the success of Harveys shows there has been a shift in peoples attitudes. They are willing to go out, but don't want to pay to get in.

I find myself like this because, if I am not enjoying myself after 30 min, I don't feel like I'm down €10 or more if I leave. So if I'm out with my friends, and they want to stay out longer, I'm more likely to say 'sure I'll stay out for another one' if its free entry. Then once I stay out, I often stay out a bit longer.

Its all about getting punters to put one foot in the door.

savic04

well maybe for the ''normal'' person just looking for drink and nothing else there is a shift in thier attitude....

but on the other hand, you have bands and Djs who are playing where places/promoters have to charge to recoup the fee's... suppose it depends on what your into.. for example I would say Rubys busiest nights so far this year is when they had dance music DJs playing ion the front bar, where people had to pay to get in...

abouttobebanned

You couldn't be more
wrong savic. These people who are into house music talk about it as if it's some kind of saviour of
pubs and clubs. They have a small following in the town but it will never come anywhere near to the following that a mainstream venue will have. A mainstream night will include some of that house music as well as hip hop chart and rock,..something for all.

I love house music but the house nights in rubys have never got a bigger crowd than the club next door.

dayshah

People will pay for a band, or a special DJ. They go out for that event. I think people are less willing to pay a cover charge for your bog standard night out.

Ledger

dayshah wrote: »

People will pay for a band, or a special DJ. They go out for that event. I think people are less willing to pay a cover charge for your bog standard night out.

I think people will pay if you have a decent one off band of DJ but if its just the resident band/DJ that you would be listening to in the same venue every week then people will get pretty pi**ed off having to pay in.


Ledger

savic04

Where did I say it's a saviour?.... Far from it...
But I was at a dj that was on it rubys room two and they closed the main room coz nobody in there so it def did happen... Haven't been in there since, to be honest ... But I know a few ppl runing nights and they told me it's on a par with main room, although maybe not every weekend.

What I meant was what the above poster said... What dance music and also people into bands and live acts prove is not about door fees if the right venue or event is on offer..

Musicman2000

dayshah wrote: »

I think the success of Harveys shows there has been a shift in peoples attitudes. They are willing to go out, but don't want to pay to get in.

I find myself like this because, if I am not enjoying myself after 30 min, I don't feel like I'm down €10 or more if I leave. So if I'm out with my friends, and they want to stay out longer, I'm more likely to say 'sure I'll stay out for another one' if its free entry. Then once I stay out, I often stay out a bit longer.

Its all about getting punters to put one foot in the door.

Daysha, I wouldn’t totally agree with you here, If you go back roughly 6 months ago, The owners of Harvey’s decided that it would like to screw the people of Waterford with a €10.00 door charge, This back fired on them big time, I personally wouldn’t pay €10.00 to go to Harvey’s which im my opinion is totally over rated, crap music and djs, way over priced drink and unfriendly staff, they only huge success of Harvey’s is their smoking area, I’m not sure if you noticed this but when they had no other choice to drop their door charge, the price of drink suddenly shot up, so in a way yourself and others that go to Harvey’s are still getting screwed.

Adyx

I don't think you can attribute Harvey's success to it's lack of door charge. In fairness the only other places in Waterford you do have to pay are Ruby's, the Forum and maybe Electric Avenue. Harvey's also make up for it by having the most expensive drinks in town.

savic04

how anyone can pay to get into a normal mainstream niteclub/late bar is beyond me...

granted if there is a band of Dj, thats a different matter... but to pay to get into harveys is a joke, on top of their outrageous prices for drink.. how its still open and doin well is beyond me, the mentality of people going there really does baffle me

dayshah

Musicman2000 wrote: »

Daysha, I wouldn’t totally agree with you here, If you go back roughly 6 months ago, The owners of Harvey’s decided that it would like to screw the people of Waterford with a €10.00 door charge, This back fired on them big time, I personally wouldn’t pay €10.00 to go to Harvey’s which im my opinion is totally over rated, crap music and djs, way over priced drink and unfriendly staff, they only huge success of Harvey’s is their smoking area, I’m not sure if you noticed this but when they had no other choice to drop their door charge, the price of drink suddenly shot up, so in a way yourself and others that go to Harvey’s are still getting screwed.

This is only my personal opinion/experience:

I expect late bars to charge more, because they have higher overheads, so I don't feel screwed if they charge a bit more. I don't normally go to Harveys so I don't know the prices. Pretend its normally €4.50 for a beer, but €6.00 in Harveys. So if I want to go to Harveys just for one (to see if its a good night), its like I'm paying €1.50 extra. So a marginal case like me would wander in.
If I had to spend €10 to carry out my little 'experiment' to see if its a good crowd or whatever, i would want to be fairly confident of a good night out.

Maybe its weird, but after paying €10/€15 to get in somewhere I feel I'm owed €10/€15 worth of fun, and if I don't get that I feel ripped off and maybe even become resentful of the night club and its owner. However if I pay for an expensive pint and don't have fun, I just say 'sure its not a great night, see you tomorrow lads' and go home. I don't feel particularly ripped off.

Back to topic: today is Tuesday, any news on developments?

dayshah

Adyx wrote: »

I don't think you can attribute Harvey's success to it's lack of door charge.

I'd say their success is that, rather than complain about the smoking ban, they saw an opportunity, and scooped up most of the smokey punters.

They were the first mover for this sort of thing.

Adyx

dayshah wrote: »

I'd say their success is that, rather than complain about the smoking ban, they saw an opportunity, and scooped up most of the smokey punters.

They were the first mover for this sort of thing.

Yes, certainly they did more than anyone else to capitalise on the smoking ban. And did it well too. I'm not a smoker but I can see the attraction Harvey's would have for smokers. Although weren't they fined as it is too enclosed?

Edit: Eylewood Ltd and Woodman Inns have both gone into receivership.

Hoffmans

Adyx wrote: »

Edit: Eylewood Ltd and Woodman Inns have both gone into receivership.

how did this happen wiv the price of drinks down there?
must be some well stuffed mattraces lying about somewhere....

savic04

what does that mean Adyx?

where does that leave rubys and the woodman so?

Adyx

Hoffmans wrote: »

how did this happen wiv the price of drinks down there?
must be some well stuffed mattraces lying about somewhere....

Seriously? How long have you been away?

savic04 wrote: »

what does that mean Adyx?

where does that leave rubys and the woodman so?

Well Eylewood Ltd, for those who don't know is Muldoons/Oxygen and Woodman Inns is obviously Woodman, Ruby Lounge and Ruby's. It is these two companies not the Tweedy Group itself that were in examinership and are now in receivership. As far as closing venues etc nothing is going to be happening any time soon and both will remain open for a good while yet. The receivers are just checking out the companies at the moment.

dayshah

Adyx wrote: »

Seriously? How long have you been away?



Well Eylewood Ltd, for those who don't know is Muldoons/Oxygen and Woodman Inns is obviously Woodman, Ruby Lounge and Ruby's. It is these two companies not the Tweedy Group itself that were in examinership and are now in receivership. As far as closing venues etc nothing is going to be happening any time soon and both will remain open for a good while yet. The receivers are just checking out the companies at the moment.

Just curious, how do you get this up to date info? Is there a court website or something?

Adyx

dayshah wrote: »

Just curious, how do you get this up to date info? Is there a court website or something?

I work in Muldoons.

savic04

Is there not a law that once you go into receivership, the next step is either clear the debt(unliely) or liquidation?

dayshah

Scroll down a bit here for more info.
http://insolvencyjournal.ie/news/10-03-07/What_s_in_the_Sunday_papers.aspx

Whatever happens, it looks like Tweedy wont be owning the group.

Though the debts must be cleared, creditors may get more money if the business is sold as a going concern, and so would be likely to go along with this. That's if they can find someone who will buy it as a going concern.

Going concerns are usually more valuable than a liquidated company. The Group could be liquidated, though the constituent companies could continue as going concerns.

abouttobebanned

I think people are replying without reading most of the other posts or if they are they're just ignoring them.

Ledger

another little update for people:

If and when the investment comes in from tramore their stake in the company will be roughly 75% bringing Bob's stake down to 25%.

This is looking like they are going to have a significant say in what goes on in the running of the venues.

I could be wrong but afaik Bob will more than likely be in the role of a Managing Director or something along those lines.


Ledger

dayshah

Ledger wrote: »

another little update for people:

If and when the investment comes in from tramore their stake in the company will be roughly 75% bringing Bob's stake down to 25%.

This is looking like they are going to have a significant say in what goes on in the running of the venues.

I could be wrong but afaik Bob will more than likely be in the role of a Managing Director or something along those lines.


Ledger

What is this based on?

I can't see a basis for how Tweedy will have any stake in the company. Why would creditors agree to Tweedy keeping 25% if they only get 10c in the Euro (even if that).

A new investor has to deal with the receiver. If they offer more than the value of the liquidated company (and there are no better offers) then it will be accepted. Why would an investor give Tweedy the gift of a 25% stake?

In effect, its the creditors that own the group now, not Bob.

Green Hornet

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

Yeah as good as it could go opens the door for investors now with the group so it will prob be willie bolster ,

Is he not gone belly up? I remember hearing that he was gone and the Waterhaven project gone as a result too?

blackstufflad

Sorry did I miss something . What is the Waterhaven project.???? Is it some plan to take over the club land of Waterford ?? Or is it not related to this thread ?

Green Hornet

blackstufflad wrote: »

Sorry did I miss something . What is the Waterhaven project.???? Is it some plan to take over the club land of Waterford ?? Or is it not related to this thread ?

Willie Bolster was referenced in the original post.