Dont cut our pay, Tax everyone else instead!!!

Time Magazine

Stark wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve . The folks in the Department of Finance will tell you that we're currently past the peak of the curve at present. Same issue is occurring with the tax intake on cigarettes.

DoF can say what they like, but they're talking nonsense.



Look at Ireland up there. A good 10% above America, who could "increase tax revenues by 30% by raising labor taxes".

Now admittedly, these use 2007 figures and tax rates have increased considerably since then. However they have not risen enough to cross the Laffer maximum. Moreover, because people are under more financial strain these days and also because of the more competitive labour market, people less breathing-space with regard to taking time off. Said slightly more technically, the Laffer is likely to have tilted to the right.

People without degrees in Economics or Statistics probably won't be able to make head nor tail of this paper, but the link is here if they want to double-check. The primary author is Harald Uhlig who is, well, rather clever. I'd take his word over DoF's any day of the week.

jimmmy

Stark wrote: »

The UK has a currency that is strong enough (just about) to stand on its own. If Ireland had stayed out of the Euro, we'd now be like Iceland. Massively devalued currency, massive inflation due to imports costing vastly more, which would render our savings pretty much worthless and having to repay foreign debt using a worthless currency. Also, the European central bank wouldn't be as keen to keep us afloat, leaving the IMF as the only source of borrowing. And I'd like to see how the public service would fair in that arrangement.

If our currency was still pegged with sterling - our nearest and still biggest trading partner, instead of to the EC ....would things have got so bad ? We could have had not so low interest rates ( which fuelled the bubble during the tiger years ) , and now our currency would be devalued by say 15 or 20% compared to the Eurozone, which would be good for our economy / help exports to the Eurozone.

Tipp Man

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well the problem in Ireland is that FF and various associated parties literally threw billions at both health and education. what is the health bill, something like 11bn annually. anyway they threw these billions at them but into compeltly the wrong areas, i.e huge wage increases and huge unecessary increases in staff instead of targeting the infrastructual problems first such as improving school and hospital facilities. If they had put even half the money that they squandered giving these guys massive pay increases then we could have some of the best hospitals and schools around.

So for all the billions they threw around they have nothing to show for it only some seriously overpaid teachers, doctors, everybody else and no real substance/infrastructure has been added. And now the teachers, nurses etc are on the big money what the hell is going to take it back from them.

What a mess they have gotten us into

gman2k

€480m has to be borrowed on a weekly basis to keep the country going.
I've yet to hear one iota of reason from any Union/ Public Service representative on how this needs to be tackled.
There is no magic pot at the end of the rainbow in the form of millionaires with mattresses waiting to be taxed!
B Lenihan has no choice in the matter, savage cutbacks are on the way or our European pay masters will not keep writing blank cheques.
The alternative is that Lenihan does not cut PS pay and social welfare, resulting in probable expulsion (or very serious threat of) from the Euro.
Ultimate sanction is IMF writing our cheques and an Icelandic economy....
Irish people need to be told clearly that they do not have the right anymore to the following;
Owning multiple properties,
Multi car families (often prestige brands),
Multiple foreign holidays,
Having everything you want.

The Economic end is Nigh folks...

NewDubliner

gman2k wrote: »

€480mI've yet to hear one iota of reason from any Union/ Public Service representative on how this needs to be tackled.

Stop giving billions of euro to bankers & property speculators?

gman2k

NewDubliner wrote: »

Stop giving billions of euro to bankers & property speculators?

No offence, but you obviously don't have a clue what the proposed NAMA is about.
You should stop listening to populist BS being put out by certain politicians and start to discover how badly F**ked this economy is.

NewDubliner

gman2k wrote: »

No offence, but you obviously don't have a clue what the proposed NAMA is about.

No offence, but only bankers, property developers and their FF puppets think NAMA is a good idea.

Which are you?

greendom

So can someone explain why the 1.3 billion in savings needs to be taken from the public sector in wage cuts rather than the whole population in a tax hike. Surely it's fairer for everyone to be included rather than just picking on one particular area.

Count Dooku

gman2k wrote: »

No offence, but you obviously don't have a clue what the proposed NAMA is about.
You should stop listening to populist BS being put out by certain politicians and start to discover how badly F**ked this economy is.

NAMA is only to save developers from their creditors and buy their overpriced oversupply for LTV value, which nobody knows where it came from. Another purpose of NAMA is to save bondholders, which made bad investment,
Nothing else

BTW, property sector is not economy. It must destroyed as quick as possible, otherwise it will destroy other parts of economy
Government is behaving as drug addict, which cannot live without easy money from property market

gman2k

NewDubliner wrote: »

No offence, but only bankers, property developers and their FF puppets think NAMA is a good idea.

Which are you?

Not a banker, own one property - my home, hate FF (and always have), unemployed for a year but a realist.

We are gone past the point of blaming FF, builders, rogue developers, bankers, Lehman Bros, George Bush etc etc etc.

As a country, we need to focus on the future and how to rectify the public finances.
It doesn't matter anymore who is in power in Dail Eireann, who ever is there will still have to deal with the same issues.
At the moment the issue is €480m being borrowed every week.

Think of it like a household, you take home €200 per week, but you are spending €400 per week.
How long are you going to keep borrowing that money on a weekly basis???
When will the bank manager call you in and say enough is enough?

We as a nation are at this stage now. The ECB have given us a timeline and credit to sort out the problem ourselves. The ECB are partly paying for our public services and social welfare at the moment.

If FF don't do the right thing by the ECB regarding NAMA and our budgetary deficit, the country may be exposed to the unthinkable.

You might not want the banks to be 'bailed out', but it's necessary. It's the only option.
It's the future of the Irish economy that's being bailed out.

NewDubliner

gman2k wrote: »

If FF don't do the right thing by the ECB regarding NAMA and our budgetary deficit, the country may be exposed to the unthinkable. ...You might not want the banks to be 'bailed out', but it's necessary. It's the only option....

Sounds more like demanding money with menaces than an actual plan to save the economy.

gman2k

NewDubliner wrote: »

Sounds more like demanding money with menaces than an actual plan to save the economy.

No, they are giving us money to save our economy. :mad:

Count Dooku

gman2k wrote: »

Not a banker, own one property - my home, hate FF (and always have), unemployed for a year but a realist.
.....
At the moment the issue is €480m being borrowed every week.

Think of it like a household, you take home €200 per week, but you are spending €400 per week.How long are you going to keep borrowing that money on a weekly basis???
When will the bank manager call you in and say enough is enough?


We as a nation are at this stage now. The ECB have given us a timeline and credit to sort out the problem ourselves. The ECB are partly paying for our public services and social welfare at the moment.

If FF don't do the right thing by the ECB regarding NAMA and our budgetary deficit, the country may be exposed to the unthinkable.

You might not want the banks to be 'bailed out', but it's necessary. It's the only option.
It's the future of the Irish economy that's being bailed out.

Are you saying that borrowing from our kids is any better then borrowing from international markets to pay PS payroll bill?

gerry28

greendom wrote: »

So can someone explain why the 1.3 billion in savings needs to be taken from the public sector in wage cuts rather than the whole population in a tax hike. Surely it's fairer for everyone to be included rather than just picking on one particular area.

Apparently its OK to divide the working population into the private sector and the public sector. But its not OK to speak in terms of the higher paid in both sectors vs lower paid in both sectors.

When arguments are put forward they always include references to the job losses and paycuts in the private sector... never a mention of the 700,000 or 800,000 private sector workers who have not lost their jobs or faced wage cuts.

Whats the difference in a public servant on 28K and a private sector worker on 28K (who hasn't been cut). They'll both have similar bills and outgoings yet the PS bashers want the PS worker cut by up to 40% as some posters have mentioned (didn't someone even mention 50% - crazy!!!).

Also, woe betide any public sector worker whether low paid or high paid who dares mention the pension 'wage cut' levy.

gman2k

Count Dooku wrote: »

Are you saying that borrowing from our kids is any better then borrowing from international markets to pay PS payroll bill?

Could you rephrase the question in an understandable way?

brian.guilfoyle

Not all government workers are on big pensions big salaries, also the ones that are on small pensions are not allowed to top them up to make them decent enough to live on, or allowed to take out a second pension, people in the private sector are, also when the celtic tiger hit, you all done well with big overtime etc, we didn't

bcirl03

greendom wrote: »

So can someone explain why the 1.3 billion in savings needs to be taken from the public sector in wage cuts rather than the whole population in a tax hike. Surely it's fairer for everyone to be included rather than just picking on one particular area.

Simple really, the public sector doesn’t offer value for money and the 'real world' (private sector) don’t have any more money to give.

gman2k

brian.guilfoyle wrote: »

Not all government workers are on big pensions big salaries, also the ones that are on small pensions are not allowed to top them up to make them decent enough to live on, or allowed to take out a second pension, people in the private sector are, also when the celtic tiger hit, you all done well with big overtime etc, we didn't

Good first point Brian, but here's another one to chew on....
Should Benchmarking be a one way street? I.E. wages going up and job security?

As your unions demanded that you should be benchmarked against the private sector during the 'celtic tiger era' should you also not be benchmarked after it also?

I.E. Wages to be brought in line with private sector.
Massive job losses like the private sector.
Your employer demanding and getting productivity.
Dead wood being cut free.

My wife also lost her job (this year) - she worked in the public sector on a 4yr contract. Whilst her work was important and was unique, not one permanent employee was laid off by her employer, even if they did zero work. And she knows lots of people in there who do nothing.

But getting back to the point, €480m being borrowed every week.

Stark

The private sector is self correcting. The government doesn't need to reduce wages in the private sector if the wages are unaffordable, the employers will do that. In the case of the public sector, the Government is the employer. That's why there's a difference between private and public sector.

dan_d

I've been beating the same drum a while on this one.....we have to cut public sector pay because we no longer have the money to afford it. What's coming in is not equalling or exceeding what's going out.
That's it.In a nutshell.
And why the public sector? Because we in the private sector started taking these hits over a year ago. We are almost all down a min of 10% in our pay if we still have jobs. We pay the same levies as the public - and as for the pension - look, we pay our own pensions.You are now on a par with the private sector....it's where you all wanted to be, right? Well this is it.Pay cuts and paying for your own pension.
Overtime? Never heard of it. Bonuses? What are they? As usual the people up top benefited. Most of us on the ground did not.
This is nothing to do with public vs private. It's to do with plain, boring maths. (What goes in) < (what goes out). And this cannot be maintained. Very simple.

gerry28

dan_d wrote: »

And why the public sector? Because we in the private sector started taking these hits over a year ago. We are almost all down a min of 10% in our pay if we still have jobs.

You are proposing to cut all public servants regardless of what they do or earn. Yet not all private sector workers have taken reductions in income... far from it.

We are all lumped in together as public sector workers, from the hospital consultant to the guard, from the head of the dept of finance to the guy who sweeps the streets.

So i'll pay a price but the private practice dentist, the MD of a pharmaceutical company, the bank manager, the publican, the owner of the local petrol station etc won't be asked for anything more to bail out the country -i don't accept that at all.

irish_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

You sir have hit the nail on the head with the problem in this country. there are way too many tree huggers and doo gooders who say tax the rich to give to the "poor" ignoring the fact that those paying tax are working hard for their money while the lazy useless f##kers get everything for free. In this country the less you do the better people think of you whereas if your forward thinking and productive they look down on you, its pure jealousy and oneupmanship

Just to clarify as well there is a big difference between someone who has been working for 20 years and is now unemployed and someone who has been on the dole for the last 20 years yet this is not refelcted in the welfare system which is completly wrong in my mind

most people buy into this belief , most likely because they have been conditioned into thinking so by over overwhelmingly left wing media

gman2k

gerry28 wrote: »

So i'll pay a price but the private practice dentist, the MD of a pharmaceutical company, the bank manager, the publican, the owner of the local petrol station etc won't be asked for anything more to bail out the country -i don't accept that at all.

Private practice dentist : probably seeing a lot less customers now due to the recession and dental tourism.
MD - his shares & dividend are being hit by the recession, as are sales in his company - profits down.
Bank manager - used to see bonuses....used to be able to lend money.
Publican - used to have customers.
Local petrol station - sales are down on secondary purchases due to less consumer spending power, fuel sales down due to less fleet cars on the road and recession in general. - carbon tax on the way.
etc,
etc,
etc,.

I'm for one sick to the teeth of whinging from people with guaranteed jobs, whose mantra is we didn't cause this recession - shoot the bankers/ developers. :mad:
As someone who is unemployed a year, with no prospects of fulltime employment, I'd love to be in your position.
You my friend are not facing down the prospect of going on the dole and getting €204 a week.

Everything that happened is in the past
Now, as a nation of people, everyone has to shoulder the pain, and that includes public sector also.
That will include people like me on the dole, who will have to take a cut also.

TCP/IP_King

c montgomery wrote: »

...Since Vat was increased in December to raise extra taxes, vat returns have nosedived.

Probably because Nearly 230,000 households travelled to the North between November of last year and February of this year

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

most people buy into this belief , most likely because they have been conditioned into thinking so by over overwhelmingly left wing media

The Indo is left wing?:eek:

TCP/IP_King

Count Dooku wrote: »

........ solution is only to cut wages for PS workers , rather then overcharge people ineffective public services

Eh, I think their wages were cut by an average of 7% (?) already in 2009.

So do we decimate our education and health systems futher ?

irish_bob

gerry28 wrote: »

You are proposing to cut all public servants regardless of what they do or earn. Yet not all private sector workers have taken reductions in income... far from it.

We are all lumped in together as public sector workers, from the hospital consultant to the guard, from the head of the dept of finance to the guy who sweeps the streets.

So i'll pay a price but the private practice dentist, the MD of a pharmaceutical company, the bank manager, the publican, the owner of the local petrol station etc won't be asked for anything more to bail out the country -i don't accept that at all.

well then dance up and down and see if you feel any better , its just the nature of the beast , nurses , guards , fireman , civil servants , all work for one single entity , the goverment , panel beaters , hardware store owners , farmers , solicitors , do not which is why its a fallacy to speak of everyone in the ps having taken a pay cut but everyone in the private sector having not

as for your comment about GP,s and dentists , those areas of the private sector continue to have public sector priveledge in that they are a closed shop , closed to competition , cartels for the most part , this needs to be looked at but doctors are a formidable clique

irish_bob

NewDubliner wrote: »

The Indo is left wing?:eek:

the sindo is the sole exception to the rest of the irish media

gman2k

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Eh, I think their wages were cut by an average of 7% (?) already in 2009.

So do we decimate our education and health systems futher ?

We can't afford the public services we have at present, the tax take does not support our spending.
It would be criminal of the government to keep borrowing money on services we cannot as a nation afford.
The standard of living has to fall dramatically in this country, as our good times were funded on cheap credit.
The party is over, everybody will be helping cleaning up.

NewDubliner

irish_bob wrote: »

the sindo is the sole exception to the rest of the irish media

How about the 'Examiner'?