Dont cut our pay, Tax everyone else instead!!!

NewDubliner

gman2k wrote: »

The party is over, everybody will be helping cleaning up.

Everybody?

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

The Indo is left wing?:eek:

Compared with irish_bob, yes it is.

irish_bob

gman2k wrote: »

We can't afford the public services we have at present, the tax take does not support our spending.
It would be criminal of the government to keep borrowing money on services we cannot as a nation afford.
The standard of living has to fall dramatically in this country, as our good times were funded on cheap credit.
The party is over, everybody will be helping cleaning up.

consumer spending was driven by easy access to cheap credit , the public sector wage bill was financed by the revenue from the property boom , bit of a change in both areas

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Compared with irish_bob, yes it is.

ive always appreciated your quick wit breathnach

Tipp Man

NewDubliner wrote: »

No offence, but only bankers, property developers and their FF puppets think NAMA is a good idea.

Which are you?

Listen sunshine you keep banging on about NAMA, think about this

20bn is being spent on welfare
Another 19bn is being spent on PS wages
Thats 39bn on just these 2 items of government expenditure, nevermind everything else that they spend money on which gives a total of 57bn this year.
Now for the PS simpletons on here our tax take this year is going to be 32bn (if we're lucky), even if no bank in the country needed taxpayers cash, these cuts would still need to be made. Can ye simply not understand that??

ParkRunner

Tipp Man wrote: »

Now for the PS simpletons on here our tax take this year is going to be 32bn (if we're lucky), even if no bank in the country needed taxpayers cash, these cuts would still need to be made. Can ye simply not understand that??

I think we need another ESRI/Eddie Hobbs/Bord Snip/Central Bank/Irish Independent etc. report to clarify things again for me

Tipp Man

EF wrote: »

I think we need another ESRI/Eddie Hobbs/Bord Snip/Central Bank/Irish Independent etc. report to clarify things again for me

I've only got a CSO one

irish_bob

NewDubliner wrote: »

How about the 'Examiner'?

never read it in my life but feel free to post me over a copy

ParkRunner

Tipp Man wrote: »

I've only got a CSO one

I for one would like to see them wound up, save money and give my head some peace

gerry28

Tipp Man wrote: »

Listen sunshine you keep banging on about NAMA, think about this

20bn is being spent on welfare
Another 19bn is being spent on PS wages
Thats 39bn on just these 2 items of government expenditure, nevermind everything else that they spend money on which gives a total of 57bn this year.
Now for the PS simpletons on here our tax take this year is going to be 32bn (if we're lucky), even if no bank in the country needed taxpayers cash, these cuts would still need to be made. Can ye simply not understand that??

You say 57bn out this year and 32bn in. 25bn deficit this year.

Just take note of that. Let them cut PS wages and social welfare.
I'd bet this time next year it will be the same deficit if not more.

All pain and no gain.

Tipp Man

gerry28 wrote: »

You say 57bn out this year and 32bn in. 25bn deficit this year.

Just take note of that. Let them cut PS wages and social welfare.
I'd bet this time next year it will be the same deficit if not more.

All pain and no gain.

Well if no action is taken on PS wages and social welfare then we will be in a worse position nextyear

Are you proposing we do nothing and just carry on as if all's rosy in the garden??

gman2k

gerry28 wrote: »

You say 57bn out this year and 32bn in. 25bn deficit this year.

Just take note of that. Let them cut PS wages and social welfare.
I'd bet this time next year it will be the same deficit if not more.

All pain and no gain.

Yep, and the moment it looks like there will be painful budgets for the next several years (2013 is the key date according to ECB I think)

If you need to take it up with someone, there's a guy in Drumcondra who know's how we got here. Problem is, he doesn't like banks - prefers shoeboxes for storing money, so he might not be the best person to ask advice.
PS, I think he might be looking at moving to the Phoenix Park sometime, so better get to Fagan's quickly with the right questions for him.

gerry28

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well if no action is taken on PS wages and social welfare then we will be in a worse position nextyear

Are you proposing we do nothing and just carry on as if all's rosy in the garden??

Its difficult to know... no money was put away for a rainy day by the FF government.

The stimulus package seems to be taking hold in america now. We can't exactly do that.

The new obsession by our media is the resession and how buggered the country is.... juat look at primetime, rte news, TV3 news, sunday independant (especially) and others.

They could stop frightening people for a start, government could target the black economy, encourage those with money to invest here, free flights home for unemployed migrant workers, grant for gap year, higher tax rate for those on over 100K, IDA could target compaines to come into the west and north west of ireland where wages are reasonable low (that would ease the social welfare bill too).

Its going to take baby steps but simply cutting PS wages and dole while we continue with the primetime type shows accompanied witrh dark music telling us how f*^ked we are isn't gonna do it either.

Also, virtually every cent paid out in dole comes back into the economy - what is cutting that really going to achieve, similarly with the low paid PS worker.

irish_bob

gerry28 wrote: »

Its difficult to know... no money was put away for a rainy day by the FF government.

The stimulus package seems to be taking hold in america now. We can't exactly do that.

The new obsession by our media is the resession and how buggered the country is.... juat look at primetime, rte news, TV3 news, sunday independant (especially) and others.

They could stop frightening people for a start, government could target the black economy, encourage those with money to invest here, free flights home for unemployed migrant workers, grant for gap year, higher tax rate for those on over 100K, IDA could target compaines to come into the west and north west of ireland where wages are reasonable low (that would ease the social welfare bill too).

Its going to take baby steps but simply cutting PS wages and dole while we continue with the primetime type shows accompanied witrh dark music telling us how f*^ked we are isn't gonna do it either.

Also, virtually every cent paid out in dole comes back into the economy - what is cutting that really going to achieve, similarly with the low paid PS worker.

it will reduce our borrowings , we have given assurances to those who are lending us money that we will get our public finances in order , your argeument about those recieving wellfare ploughing it back into the economy doesnt hold up to scrutiny , by that logic , why not double the rate of dole , why not increase public sector wages , besides , we need deflation right now , this country is still over priced

ei.sdraob

irish_bob wrote: »

, by that logic , why not double the rate of dole , why not increase public sector wages , besides , we need deflation right now , this country is still over priced

have you spotted the trend as well?

people scream "rip off republic, its cheaper just about everywhere else"

but dont realize that its cheaper everywhere else because their income on average are well above just about everywhere else, and income is a main variable in the inflation feedback loop that went wild in last dozen years or so

20goto10

Stark wrote: »

The UK has a currency that is strong enough (just about) to stand on its own. If Ireland had stayed out of the Euro, we'd now be like Iceland. Massively devalued currency, massive inflation due to imports costing vastly more, which would render our savings pretty much worthless and having to repay foreign debt using a worthless currency. Also, the European central bank wouldn't be as keen to keep us afloat, leaving the IMF as the only source of borrowing. And I'd like to see how the public service would fair in that arrangement.
.

You're twisting the facts here. You're saying if we were in the situation we are in now and not in the Euto then we'd need the IMF to bail us out. I don't disagree with you there. But you're missing the point, we would not be in this mess in the first place were it not for the Euro. Interest rates were upside down. They were low when we needed them high and by the way, it's about to hit us again on the way back because come next year interests will be going up when we need them to stay put or in fact we actually need then to go lower. It was the equivalen driving full speed at a wall andt hitting the accelorator instead of the brake.

I might also add that the decline of our booming economy, that is our real economy of the 1990's, just happens to coincide with our entry into the Euro. This is for 2 reasons:

1 we were put on a level playing field with the rest of the eu. And much like our soccer team, we didn't stand a chance.
2 we lost parity with the UK economy - this was certain death for us and is still kicking us in the balls to this day.

c montgomery

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It is easy to create a self-evident truth by treating unproven assumptions as facts.

paid 26% More in public than private.

That truth enough for ya???

jimmmy

c montgomery wrote: »

paid 26% More in public than private.

That truth enough for ya???

Plus the shorter working hours in the public sector, still subsidised pension etc were not taken in to account ..............the difference is even greater than 26% when they are.....

Oh, and the research / survey was done by the governments own ESRI, so Mr Breathnach can hardly complain about bias in favour of the private sector there.

P. Breathnach

c montgomery wrote: »

paid 26% More in public than private.

That truth enough for ya???

You are several pages late with this one. Donegalfella has already visited it.

Why not read and digest the original: http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20091008143902/WP321.pdf ?

jimmmy wrote: »

... Oh, and the research / survey was done by the governments own ESRI, so Mr Breathnach can hardly complain about bias in favour of the private sector there.

I can, however, complain about bias on your part.

ardmacha

But you're missing the point, we would not be in this mess in the first place were it not for the Euro.

The UK is in a mess.

1 we were put on a level playing field with the rest of the eu. And much like our soccer team, we didn't stand a chance.

2 we lost parity with the UK economy - this was certain death for us and is still kicking us in the balls to this day.

thanks be to God we lost parity, since the break with Sterling we've gone from 60% of UK GNP to 106%.

Saying that the Euro wrecked the Irish economy is like the party of nomads that were on a plane a few years ago and starting fighting and they blamed the airline for giving them free drink. They didn't have to drink it and we didn't have to act the maggot with the economy just because we could.

Flex

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Quoted for truth

_Kooli_

jimmmy wrote: »

Plus the shorter working hours in the public sector, still subsidised pension etc were not taken in to account ..............the difference is even greater than 26% when they are.....

Oh, and the research / survey was done by the governments own ESRI, so Mr Breathnach can hardly complain about bias in favour of the private sector there.

They work the jobs they are contracted to work. When you take a job you work the conditions set out that you took the job offer under.

In all walks, some people work longer hours and some shorter hours depending on the job. People on the the dole dont work at all and yet they still complain about others not working enough hours.
You of all people know this.

Gurgle

Flex wrote: »

Quoted for truth

Quoting it makes it true?

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

So do many private-sector workers. Thats what's meant by a permanent pensionable job.

The public sector does have more 'job for life' security, because the state isn't a profit-driven multinational which can pull the plug when it becomes costly to run. Surely they should be congratulated on making a smart career choice?

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Every employee believes that he should be paid the salary in his contract for doing the job described in his contract.

Public sector salaries went down 9% across the board in addition to the levies applied to everyone. I've heard plenty of 'my mate took a 30% pay cut' stories, but I've seen no general stats on pay cuts in the private sector.

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Yes, it would be better to cut the numbers with a voluntary redundancy deal - like every company / employer does when it becomes inflated.
But the cowboys in the Dàil didn't do this during the boom (it was as inflated and inefficient then as now). They would have had no shortage of applicants at a time when private sector jobs were easier to come by and better paid.

Count Dooku

Gurgle wrote: »

They would have had no shortage of applicants at a time when private sector jobs were easier to come by and better paid.

It was no shortage of applicants for jobs in public sector even during boom times

In 2006 the Public Appointments Service, through Publicjobs. ie, attracted some 80,000 applicants to apply for jobs throughout the public service. These positions ranged from clerical officers, junior diplomats and legal professionals in the civil service to engineers and senior managers in local authorities to hospital consultants and administrators in the health sector.

https://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/apr/01/open-access-to-public-service-jobs/

Stark

Gurgle wrote: »

The public sector does have more 'job for life' security, because the state isn't a profit-driven multinational which can pull the plug when it becomes costly to run. Surely they should be congratulated on making a smart career choice?

Indeed so. Just like the banks should be congratulated for their ingenuity in getting the Government to bail them out through the tough times.

peter_de_tool

The private sector and its workforce is already feeling the pain of change, with lay-offs, cost cutting across the board and stock market turmoil increasing anxiety about pensions. Surely true social partnership requires that their counterparts in the public sector should be willing to share even part of this burden, and to place value on the worth of their guaranteed job and pension security in a time of uncertainty

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This deliberately ignores the effect of the public sector envy levy which is a cut in net pay.

ardmacha

Firstly people here are using a statistical sleight of hand, by pretending that the pension levy was not a cut in wages, when it was.

However, the fact of the matter is that the number of employees on the state payroll did increase from 287,600 in 1999 to 370,400 in 2009. Now we have to cope with that legacy.

it would be interesting to know where this increase occurred, as it was not evenly spread across all sectors.

Gurgle

Stark wrote: »

Indeed so. Just like the banks should be congratulated for their ingenuity in getting the Government to bail them out through the tough times.

Yes, its exactly the same thing.
(Except of course that banks are corporations who pay into FF coffers and the public sector workers are people who pay tax into the state coffers, but otherwise the same thing)