Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Dont cut our pay, Tax everyone else instead!!!

Options
1…6791112

Comments

  • Options
    #242
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    The truth here is that the Public Sector Union-ites, want to return to the economic holocoust that was Ireland of the 80's.
    Only now, they have the crazy Bertie social-partnership (contradiction in terms)... so that while everyone in the private sector gets screwed, or looses their job, they exist on a guaranteed, inflated, and ever-increasing salary and pension.
    So, basically, they see this as an opportunity to become the (undeserving) fiscal elite.... socialism indeed!!!


  • Options
    #243
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224257901113

    'Madam, – With the news of “Unions’ day of action to hit hospitals and schools” (Home News, October 29th), it would appear we are set for a winter of discontent in the public service.
    The crux of the problem is that the Government must cut costs, but public servants say they cannot afford to take a pay cut. It appears there is no way to square this circle. But, what is driving public servants’ need for these levels of pay? The problem relates to the property boom: many public servants have massive mortgages to pay each month. The solution relates to Nama.
    The Government could cut public service pay by say 5 per cent, and at the same time, using the Nama legislation, force the banks to write off 5 per cent of all mortgages, (and fix current interest rates relative to European Central Bank for a number of months), on primary residences. By doing this the argument against a public service pay cut would reduce significantly.
    While this move would in the short run not be popular with bankers, even with the 5 per cent cut in the value of the mortgages they would still return a profit in the long run. In addition, such action should stimulate the property market by reducing negative equity. The private sector would benefit too from an effective devaluation of a major wage driver in the economy.
    It’s national asset management and national interest management. – Yours, etc,'


    Thought this letter from todays Times was interesting, dunno how well it'd work in practice tho, what ye reckon?


  • Options
    #244
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The reason we're in this whole financial mess is that people went mental buying overpriced homes. It's bad enough we have to bail out the banks for lending to them (at least the bank bailout is in the form of an equity stake so we've some chance of making the money back in the future), but if we bail out the people who took out the loans as well then what's left for the people who acted responsibly through all the credit madness? Maybe we should only cut the pay of people who didn't take out mortgages, that would be a popular move. Do we also have to cut mortgages on teachers' holiday homes in Spain?


  • Options
    #245
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    and when the bank writes off 5% of the loans , does the Irish tax payer step in again to recapitalise the banks to fill the hole? So in effect we have a transfer of wealth to those who over borrowed from the tax payers whole lived within their means during the bubble. So much for the moral hazard and fairness.


  • Options
    #246
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    and when the bank writes off 5% of the loans , does the Irish tax payer step in again to recapitalise the banks to fill the hole? So in effect we have a transfer of wealth to those who over borrowed from the tax payers whole lived within their means during the bubble. So much for the moral hazard and fairness.

    Well the suggestion is that the banks would eventually become profit making in the long term, so there would be no hole to fill. I really dunno if it'd work, just thought it was interesting, a new angle I haven't heard before.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #247
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    dearg lady wrote: »
    Well the suggestion is that the banks would eventually become profit making in the long term, so there would be no hole to fill. I really dunno if it'd work, just thought it was interesting, a new angle I haven't heard before.

    This might be of help.

    People got to realise that there is no easy solution or way out. So then you have to look at the fairest solution. IMHO that's make the people who made the mess, clean up the mess. Lenders and borrowers.


  • Options
    #248
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    This might be of help.

    People got to realise that there is no easy solution or way out. So then you have to look at the fairest solution. IMHO that's make the people who made the mess, clean up the mess. Lenders and borrowers.

    Believe me, they'd still be paying for their mistakes massively even with 5% knocked off the mortgages!


  • Options
    #249
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    dearg lady wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224257901113

    discontent in the public service... The problem relates to the property boom: many public servants have massive mortgages to pay each month.

    Thought this letter from todays Times was interesting, dunno how well it'd work in practice tho, what ye reckon?

    What a loada cobblers. Not only do the PS deflect everything onto everyone else. They NOW are the only ones who were hit during the property boom. Well what about the private sector worker who is no longer a private sector worker with no job. While the PS got massive pay increases alot of the manufacturing company employees couldnt afford a house because their wages which were regarded as very good in the pre tiger era were too low until the madness of 100% mortgages, which have now caused the belly up situation we have now. Most people I know in the PS have more than one house. Mate has 3, cousin has 5 that I know of, even my local nurse had 3 and sold one in the height of the prices at 2006. Trying to put the PS into a victim of the property boom is as easy as saying they caused it since they were able to secure the loans for extra property being in secure pensionable jobs at the start of the boom.


  • Options
    #250
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    Stark wrote: »
    Do we also have to cut mortgages on teachers' holiday homes in Spain?

    that is a bit below the belt - some teachers have holiday homes in france!


  • Options
    #251
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    dodgyme wrote: »
    What a loada cobblers. Not only do the PS deflect everything onto everyone else. They NOW are the only ones who were hit during the property boom. Well what about the private sector worker who is no longer a private sector worker with no job. While the PS got massive pay increases alot of the manufacturing company employees couldnt afford a house because their wages which were regarded as very good in the pre tiger era were too low until the madness of 100% mortgages, which have now caused the belly up situation we have now. Most people I know in the PS have more than one house. Mate has 3, cousin has 5 that I know of, even my local nurse had 3 and sold one in the height of the prices at 2006. Trying to put the PS into a victim of the property boom is as easy as saying they caused it since they were able to secure the loans for extra property being in secure pensionable jobs at the start of the boom.

    tarring everyone with the same brush is the real nonsense. Not everyone in the public sector has more than one house. The suggestion would benefit everyone who took out a mortgage for a PPR, not just public sector workers.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #252
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    dearg lady wrote: »
    ... Not everyone in the public sector has more than one house...

    Really?

    <looks around>

    Oh Yeah. You're right. I have less than one house (half-interest).


  • Options
    #253
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Just an observation on the thread title. Should it not be dont cut our pay, tax everyone instead!!! There is no one else. A tax rise does affect everyone who works, except those at the very bottom and those who can afford expert tax advisors.


  • Options
    #254
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    dearg lady wrote: »
    tarring everyone with the same brush is the real nonsense. Not everyone in the public sector has more than one house. The suggestion would benefit everyone who took out a mortgage for a PPR, not just public sector workers.

    that is exactly the point that I am making. The letter makes the PS out to be the victims and is tarring the same way that I showed you can just tar the complete opposite way.

    My opinion is simple - the Public Sector need a serious bottle of cop on and start to face up to the issues the way the private sector had too.


  • Options
    #255
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    dodgyme wrote: »
    that is exactly the point that I am making. The letter makes the PS out to be the victims and is tarring the same way that I showed you can just tar the complete opposite way.

    My opinion is simple - the Public Sector need a serious bottle of cop on and start to face up to the issues the way the private sector had too.

    You're kidding me right? There is nothing in that letter that makes the public sector out to be victims. I have no clue where you're getting that from. it's written in a very fair and even handed way, which is more than can be expected on here :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #256
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    dearg lady wrote: »
    You're kidding me right? There is nothing in that letter that makes the public sector out to be victims.:
    I have no clue where you're getting that from.
    'Madam, – With the news of “Unions’ day of action to hit hospitals and schools” (Home News, October 29th), it would appear we are set for a winter of discontent in the public service. The crux of the problem is that the Government must cut costs, but public servants say they cannot afford to take a pay cut. It appears there is no way to square this circle. But, what is driving public servants’ need for these levels of pay? The problem relates to the property boom: many public servants have massive mortgages to pay each month.

    I think maybe you are kidding. I will get my violin?

    I have no clue where you're getting that from.
    dearg lady wrote: »
    it's written in a very fair and even handed way, which is more than can be expected on here :rolleyes:

    Oh its very even handed?:eek:

    Many in the private sector couldnt afford to take a wage cut but with the stroke of a pen they lost their jobs! And they actually dont seem to be complaining as much as the PS lot ?!


  • Options
    #257
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    dodgyme wrote: »
    'Madam, – With the news of “Unions’ day of action to hit hospitals and schools” (Home News, October 29th), it would appear we are set for a winter of discontent in the public service. The crux of the problem is that the Government must cut costs, but public servants say they cannot afford to take a pay cut. It appears there is no way to square this circle. But, what is driving public servants’ need for these levels of pay? The problem relates to the property boom: many public servants have massive mortgages to pay each month.

    I think maybe you are kidding. I will get my violin?

    I have no clue where you're getting that from.


    Oh its very even handed?:eek:

    Many in the private sector couldnt afford to take a wage cut but instead they lost their jobs!

    the person who wrote it doesn't even appear to be a public sector worker! They're just looking for fair ways to sort the problem out. I see absolutely no portraying the public service as the victim in that letter.


  • Options
    #258
    dodgyme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭dodgyme


    dearg lady wrote: »
    the person who wrote it doesn't even appear to be a public sector worker!.
    err was that not happening in knock? only kiddin!
    dearg lady wrote: »
    They're just looking for fair ways to sort the problem out. I see absolutely no portraying the public service as the victim in that letter.

    oh ya ? -> 'many public servants have massive mortgages '

    maybe add

    'many public servants have massive houses and rent them to students'

    that would then be more balanced


  • Options
    #259
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    dearg lady wrote: »
    the person who wrote it doesn't even appear to be a public sector worker! They're just looking for fair ways to sort the problem out. I see absolutely no portraying the public service as the victim in that letter.

    Well this:
    many public servants have massive mortgages to pay each month.

    is trying to get people to feel sympathy for public sector workers.

    Realistically peoples personal circumstances should not factor into how much they get paid in any industry.

    You can't go to your boss and say, I need a 15% pay increase because I'm struggling to pay my debts as interest rates have gone up. Same way you can't say don't cut my wages or I can't pay my mortgage to your employer (well you can but it makes no difference about the reality your employer faces).

    Employers don't want to cut wages as it usually leads to lowered productivity. It is a necessity when an employer isn't breaking even to cut wages, layoff staff and cut costs anywhere else they can.

    The public sector workers employer is the government who is in the red to the tune of 20 billion euro. If it was any normal company everyone would be out of a job as the company could no longer function. The fact that it is the state means public sector workers are in the lucky position that you will get a pay cut instead of being laid off and joining the dole queues.

    Taxes can't be increased or more businesses will close, less tax will come in because of this and the government will be in the same position it is in now which is why they have already stated they won't increase taxes. It leaves one option, its the option any sane person would want for anyone but it has to happen. I don't think any sane person wants to reduce public sector workers wages, everyone just knows it has to happen and wants to avoid strikes if at all possible as it will further hurt anyone dependant on those services which again serves no purpose as nobody wants to cut services.


  • Options
    #260
    srvhead
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭srvhead


    The FF govt. blew the boom they created by accepting backhanders from, and pandering to developers and bankers. After all the pay cuts and levies imposed on both the private and public sectors, most people would not qualify for the mortgage they have if they went back to the banks and re-applied!! The banks should be allowed to fold for their reckless lending, like any other private business would for reckless trading . The FF shower should be jailed for 'light touch' regulation of the banking sector. Joan Burton was denied an FOI request today for details leading up to the bank guarantee last year!! What it the govt. trying to hide?? Hardly dodgy horse-trading with bankers, God forbid!!!

    Public Vs Private;
    Back in the late 80's early 90's one was ridiculed and looked down on for joining the civil service!!! And for a long time before the benchmarking exercise, private sector wages easily outstripped public sector wages. Career choice lies in the beholder, get over it.

    No one shouted stop when cars were being changed on a regular basis and remortgages were given out like sweets to one and all.

    Yes the country is f*cked but whose fault is it?
    Blaming the public sector is a lame cop out! Start with the politicians, bankers, builders, and finally yourselves for paying ever increasing prices for goods and services without thought, fuelling wage increases .


  • Options
    #261
    c montgomery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    srvhead wrote: »
    The FF govt. blew the boom they created by accepting backhanders from, and pandering to developers and bankers. After all the pay cuts and levies imposed on both the private and public sectors, most people would not qualify for the mortgage they have if they went back to the banks and re-applied!! The banks should be allowed to fold for their reckless lending, like any other private business would for reckless trading . The FF shower should be jailed for 'light touch' regulation of the banking sector. Joan Burton was denied an FOI request today for details leading up to the bank guarantee last year!! What it the govt. trying to hide?? Hardly dodgy horse-trading with bankers, God forbid!!!

    Public Vs Private;
    Back in the late 80's early 90's one was ridiculed and looked down on for joining the civil service!!! And for a long time before the benchmarking exercise, private sector wages easily outstripped public sector wages. Career choice lies in the beholder, get over it.

    No one shouted stop when cars were being changed on a regular basis and remortgages were given out like sweets to one and all.

    Yes the country is f*cked but whose fault is it?
    Blaming the public sector is a lame cop out! Start with the politicians, bankers, builders, and finally yourselves for paying ever increasing prices for goods and services without thought, fuelling wage increases .


    Ok, lets start really looking at where the blame lies.

    Politicians i think we all can agree on but lets not forget their advisors and aids who we pay top doller for. Next, how about the financial regualtor and his whole department whose job it was to regulate the banks to prevent something like this from happening. Next on the blame game we have local authorities and the planning departments who gave permission for huge appartment blocks and massive estates to be built in areas that did not have the services to cater for them.
    The central bank surely had a part to play in this. I mean since the euro came in they dont control our currency or interest rate anymore, nowever none of them lost their jobs due to this reduction in work volume, did none of these learned people see this coming???Could they not have called someone to tell them???

    Anyone spot a tread?????

    Thats right, you guessed it! This whole crises can be attributed to these departments in the public sector getting it totally wrong, by not doing their jobs correctly and in reality doing their jobs completly arseways.

    Big pensions and payoffs is the consequence of this incompetence while their unions call for everyone in the private sector to share in this pain.

    Well i have already shared,pay cut of 11%, no pension and no job security. Now its time for u to feel some of this pain
    *finger pointing angerly at siptu, ictu and higher paid public servants*


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #262
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    c montgomery wrote: »
    This whole crises can be attributed to these departments in the public sector getting it totally wrong, by not doing their jobs correctly and in reality doing their jobs completly arseways.
    Because of political interference.
    c montgomery wrote: »
    Well i have already ...no pension ..
    How so? Didn't you pay PRSI?


  • Options
    #263
    c montgomery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Because of political interference.

    How so? Didn't you pay PRSI?


    Yes i pay prsi, i will get the ordinary state pension. My point is my employer does have a pension scheme, i dont have a private pension as i cant afford one as opposed to many in the public sector who will recieve very generous pensions upon retirement paid for by the rest of us mugs.


  • Options
    #264
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Because of political interference.
    According article 108 of EU treaty, central bank and financial regulator( as former part of central bank) must be independent from government and free from any political influence.
    It is duty of senior staff to report to Brussels that political appointees, such David Begg and Pat Neary are interfering with normal process.
    If senior staff in those bodies didn’t report about it
    1) they broke EU regulations
    or
    2) they are incompetent


  • Options
    #265
    erictheviking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    dodgyme wrote: »
    And they actually dont seem to be complaining as much as the PS lot ?!

    But I haven't actually seen a post or thread where PS workers complain.(except to defend themselves against sometimes ridiculous generalisations). The complainers are all the students (who don't mind availing of 3rd level education at the taxpayer's expense :rolleyes:) Buy to let chancers (Who don't mind being subsidised by the taxpayers with rent allowance cheques :rolleyes:). etc.etc.
    Irish begrudgery at its finest.
    PS. I'm not a PS worker but I have to admit I wish I was;).


  • Options
    #266
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    dodgyme wrote: »
    err was that not happening in knock? only kiddin!
    :D
    dodgyme wrote: »
    oh ya ? -> 'many public servants have massive mortgages '

    maybe add

    'many public servants have massive houses and rent them to students'

    that would then be more balanced

    I think this may be a point we have to agree to disagree on, I just don't see it. And while I can completely understand how you feel about public servants who have more than one property, I'd say(but obviously I don't know for sure) thats the majority have one house. The suggestion in the letter is to only apply the reduction to a persons principal private residence.
    thebman wrote: »
    Realistically peoples personal circumstances should not factor into how much they get paid in any industry.

    I do actually agree with you on this but IF there was a way to soften the blow I think it's important to take it.
    thebman wrote: »
    I don't think any sane person wants to reduce public sector workers wages, everyone just knows it has to happen and wants to avoid strikes if at all possible as it will further hurt anyone dependant on those services which again serves no purpose as nobody wants to cut services.

    No your absolutely right, and I don't think most public sector workers want to strike either. From what I've seen support for trade unions is pretty low at this point. I think a paycut is a given, I would't argue that point, I just think the huge paycut certain people are calling for is unfair, and as I've said before there is money to be saved in better control of other expenditure in the public service. Huge money from some of what I've heard and seen.
    c montgomery wrote: »
    Yes i pay prsi, i will get the ordinary state pension. My point is my employer does have a pension scheme, i dont have a private pension as i cant afford one as opposed to many in the public sector who will recieve very generous pensions upon retirement paid for by the rest of us mugs.

    While I won't disagree that public servants get a very generous pension, let's just be clear, they do, and have always contributed to it. AFAIK it varies within the public service, but I think around 7% of gross salary pre pension levy and around 13-15% post pension levy. And they don't get the option of saying 'I can't afford it', it's deducted automatically.

    I believe it's been mentioned on here before also that in spite of paying the same PRSI as private workers (post 1995) public servants do not also receive the state pension once they receive a public service pension. Perhaps someone could confirm if this is correct?


  • Options
    #267
    c montgomery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    dearg lady wrote: »
    :D


    While I won't disagree that public servants get a very generous pension, let's just be clear, they do, and have always contributed to it. AFAIK it varies within the public service, but I think around 7% of gross salary pre pension levy and around 13-15% post pension levy. And they don't get the option of saying 'I can't afford it', it's deducted automatically.

    I believe it's been mentioned on here before also that in spite of paying the same PRSI as private workers (post 1995) public servants do not also receive the state pension once they receive a public service pension. Perhaps someone could confirm if this is correct?

    No you wont disagree, you'll just try and justify it!


  • Options
    #268
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    c montgomery wrote: »
    No you wont disagree, you'll just try and justify it!


    yeah, just ignore everything I've written in my post and make a (not so) smart comment :rolleyes:
    c montgomery wrote: »
    Yes i pay prsi, i will get the ordinary state pension. My point is my employer does have a pension scheme, i dont have a private pension as i cant afford one as opposed to many in the public sector who will recieve very generous pensions upon retirement paid for by the rest of us mugs.


    up until the bank bail out the government pension fund was doing pretty well and public sector workers were funding this, the pension levy is an attempt to fill this hole.

    If you haven't bothered to provide for a pension for yourself then I can honestly say I have no sympathy for you.


  • Options
    #269
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    srvhead wrote: »

    Public Vs Private;
    Back in the late 80's early 90's one was ridiculed and looked down on for joining the civil service!!! And for a long time before the benchmarking exercise, private sector wages easily outstripped public sector wages. Career choice lies in the beholder, get over it.

    Sorry but this is a crock of #### to be honest. Can you honestly say that in the 80's people looked down on PS jobs?? Let me see people were emigrating by the thousands becasue they couldn't find work and yet a well paid job, with a huge pension and the ultimate in job security was looked down upon?? Get real and stop talking crap


  • Options
    #270
    erictheviking
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭erictheviking


    srvhead wrote: »
    The FF govt. blew the boom they created by accepting backhanders from, and pandering to developers and bankers. After all the pay cuts and levies imposed on both the private and public sectors, most people would not qualify for the mortgage they have if they went back to the banks and re-applied!! The banks should be allowed to fold for their reckless lending, like any other private business would for reckless trading . The FF shower should be jailed for 'light touch' regulation of the banking sector. Joan Burton was denied an FOI request today for details leading up to the bank guarantee last year!! What it the govt. trying to hide?? Hardly dodgy horse-trading with bankers, God forbid!!!
    I agree here. In any other country those reckless bankers and crooked politicians would be looking at massive jail sentences. It is an absolute scandal that they have got away with it. Although the govt. did a great job diverting attention away from it all by kicking off the private sector v public sector argument. Perfect 'divide and conquer' tactics. Irish people seem to be incredibly naive
    srvhead wrote: »
    Public Vs Private;
    Back in the late 80's early 90's one was ridiculed and looked down on for joining the civil service!!! And for a long time before the benchmarking exercise, private sector wages easily outstripped public sector wages. Career choice lies in the beholder, get over it.

    No one shouted stop when cars were being changed on a regular basis and remortgages were given out like sweets to one and all.

    Yes the country is f*cked but whose fault is it?
    Blaming the public sector is a lame cop out! Start with the politicians, bankers, builders, and finally yourselves for paying ever increasing prices for goods and services without thought, fuelling wage increases .
    In the 90's I laughed at people joining the 'boring' civil service but lets face it, in the 80's you had to know someone to get into the public sector which was then a bit of an elitist clique (Although that doesn't happen anymore). There was feck all here in the 80's and myself and most of my friends spent much of the 80's on the building sites around England.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #271
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    dearg lady wrote: »
    up until the bank bail out the government pension fund was doing pretty well and public sector workers were funding this, the pension levy is an attempt to fill this hole.

    If you haven't bothered to provide for a pension for yourself then I can honestly say I have no sympathy for you.

    It most certainly was not. The pension fund is grossly under resourced and has been losing money hand over fist for the last numbert of years. Ever hear of the pension timebomb?

    The bank bail out has nothing to do with a hole in the pension fund. This is just plain wrong to suggest it has.

    When will people realise that so far there has been NO public money put into the banks. The only money that has gone in is money from Europe which the State has guaranteed. So we are liable for billions, but we have not paid a penny yet.

    And, shame on you for try and tarnish people who can not afford to pay for a private pension as someone who deserves no sympathy.
    Try come down from your lofty tower for a while and witness the real problems many people are facing on a daily basis!


Advertisement