The Silly Soup of Redundant National Secondary Roads

Sponge Bob

[Mod]Following on from the discussion which was developing on the N62 Thurles Bypass thread, here's a place to discuss the merits of having many national secondary roads as opposed to regional roads.[/Mod]

aka Why are we talking about a 'National Road Bypass of Thurles' a town of no national significance whatsoever and which is located between absolutely nowhere and precisely nowhere of national sigificance and with a motorway nearby.

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101sean wrote: »

not helped by the Irish attitude to parking!

That is it in a nutshell. Half of all the tailbacks in Loughrea over the years could have been eliminated by making the locals park properly , narrow and all as Loughrea was .

There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

The only orbital crosslink I would would retain is the N52/N51/N80 . East Munster and Leinster are now well endowed with Motorways and overly endowed with substandard secondary N roads.

At least they are downgrading the N80 from Moate to Tullamore as surplus to requirements .

More of this please . The N81 from Tallaght to Tullow should go the minute the N9 is finished to Carlow as should the N78 when the M9 reaches Kilkenny.

I can tolerate a bypass of Athy and a bypass of Tullow being chucked in to sweeten the pot if they go ( and Tullow is many years ahead of Thurles in its studies ) , maybe a bypass of Thurles will hasten the permanent retirement of the N62.

If so good , I will certainly consider such a deal

Zoney

SpongeBob:

It's fairly intrinsic to the way our primary routes/motorways are laid out (radial/parallel from Dublin) that secondary routes between them are needed - and more than just the N52/N80 etc. (although I entirely agree that those should get special treatment as the more important ones).

Also there is the aspect of the secondary N routes existing so that traffic uses them rather than random R/local roads (the R roads are really a more generic category than even the minor secondary N roads - even though e.g. urban R roads may be far busier).

I think it makes sense to have the secondary N roads as a classification even where the routes aren't getting much attention.

Sponge Bob

Once we have motorways and a good radial linkeage from one to the other such as the N52/N80 we no longer need these virtually parallel routes such as the N78 via Athy .

We are only codding ourselves . If there is a Gort - Athenry - Ballinasloe Motorway the N66 from Gort to Loughrea becomes a 'luxury' we cannot afford ...and much of it is bloody dire which means we should not encourage traffic onto it.

The poor bloody tourists may think that as a national road it is up to some decent standard and could die for that mistake.

Lots of Irish secondary roads are crap and are no better than nearby R roads in the main ...sometimes worse.

For example I never travel Headford - Ballinrobe N84 because the superior R334 via the Neale is a much better straighter and quieter road in the main.

So let them sink back into the R Road mire where they belong from now on . When we have a decent national road network ( not in my lifetime even with lots of secondaries gone ) we can figure these poxy R roads out

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We are only codding ourselves . If there is a Gort - Athenry - Ballinasloe Motorway the N66 from Gort to Loughrea becomes a 'luxury' we cannot afford ...and much of it is bloody dire which means we should not encourage traffic onto it.

I think the N66 from Gort to Loughrea is one of the better standard secondary routes in the country. I've driven it a few times and I much prefer it over others I've driven.

For example I never travel Headford - Ballinrobe N84 because the superior R334 via the Neale is a much better straighter and quieter road in the main.

I couldn't agree more there. 3rd world road infrastructure at it's finest maybe pipped to the top by the N56 which on it's day can be marvelously awful.

Sorry for going OT.

Sponge Bob

I also think that with long routes like the N56 and N59 the only N bit should be Galway - Clifden and Ballina - Bellacorrick along with Letterkenny - Letterfad and Donegal - Killybegs. Same with the N67 from Ballyvaughan to about Kilrush. Abolish.

The rest is not national in any sense and never will be FFS

How you find that ancient bridge east of Kilchreest on the N66 fit for a national road I will never know Tech2 . It is bloody lethal .

Thurles needs a bypass on a Tipp level, not a national level . Nationally it should not even be on the radar .

Zoney

Spongebob:

I agree a review of secondary roads is needed - particularly in light of the motorways - for example of the N66 is indeed relevant, due to the route of the M18 in particular being east of the current N18. (Perhaps though the current N6 should become N65 from where the N65 currently joins, to the M18). Thurles doesn't need two secondary routes off the M8 - one should be an R road (if anything). There nevertheless appear only to be a couple of superfluous secondary links in general.

I would be wary of modifications to the midlands secondary routes - they provide a lot of necessary links even with the motorways. You could perhaps consolidate them with better arranged routes, but these better routes (in between existing links to serve traffic flows of both) don't exist, and wouldn't necessarily serve towns along existing secondary routes. However, a review could perhaps make use of better sections of R roads if some exist that would realign secondary routes more usefully - as you say many R roads are now better quality.

The Word Is Bor

Can't agree on the N66 Gort-Loughrea being a good standard National Secondary. It's got one or two straight sections that permit some over-taking but the ride quality is very bad, some very bad bends/bridges. It's a regional road at best.

But I would be in agreement with a lot of what Sponge Bob says about our National Secondary roads. Look at the N65/67/85 in Clare, the N66/84 in Galway and the N70/71 in Kerry as prime examples. All tourist routes I know but still they are regional roads at best.

Sponge Bob

I would abolish the N65 as well as the N66.

These, like the N62, are not nationally significant and only carry 5000 vehicles a day at most , many only 3000. They are regional roads .

I would have a spoke system to concentrate R roads onto N roads onto Motorways and yes I would have an Atlantic Road Corridor to move traffic north south between spokes .

I would operate a principle that nobody should be more than 50km from a National Road unless they live on an island or in a town of over 10,000 people.

The Ring of Kerry is not a national road either , Gahhh. The only decent town is Caherciveen , terminate the N road there from Killorglin. Dingle can keep its national road too.





Then fix the bloody spokes up by all means .

medoc

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

The only orbital crosslink I would would retain is the N52/N51/N80 . East Munster and Leinster are now well endowed with Motorways and overly endowed with substandard secondary N roads.

At least they are downgrading the N80 from Moate to Tullamore as surplus to requirements .

More of this please . The N81 from Tallaght to Tullow should go the minute the N9 is finished to Carlow as should the N78 when the M9 reaches Kilkenny.

There is definatly a need for a review of all National secondry routes after the opening of the Inter urbans to see which are needed or not and their condition. Also why the N82 exists is a mystery especially after the completion of the M50.

I'd be inclined to leave the N62 as a secondy route. While it parallels the M8 on part of the way its still a more direct connection through Athlone from the north west and people might want to avoid the toll on the M7/M8. It would require a good bit of investment including a bypass of Birr, Roscrea as well as Thurles

The Word Is Bor

Perhaps with the Regional Roads coming under auspices of the NRA there might be a rationalisation of these roads along with the National Secondaries. Although you can already hear the clamour from deepest darkest Ballymacgash "dey tuk our rods!".

Tech3

Would it not be a good idea to leave the N61, N62 and N52 alone? As it stands for Limerick/Kerry traffic travelling north to Sligo/Donegal region on a chronic weekend for Galway city traffic(which can be very often with various events) would the above route be a lot better than the M18/N18/N17/N4?

Sponge Bob

If de teeshock will stand over the demotion of de n80 .....what is the problem .

But the principles must be simple, published and consulted upon .

Ideally it should occur quickly because most significant mapping in Ireland will be largely frozen after the end of 2010 when the MIUs are finished .

I would leave a spoke N61 from Roscommon to Athlone . Connect to Motorway from county town, from Roscommon to christ knows where in Mayo it is not a bad regional road by regional road standards right now.

Limerick to Donegal avoiding races and obsessed with following N roads, via Mullingar is fine.

medoc

tech2 wrote: »

Would it not be a good idea to leave the N61, N62 and N52 alone? As it stands for Limerick/Kerry traffic travelling north to Sligo/Donegal region on a chronic weekend for Galway city traffic(which can be very often with various events) would the above route be a lot better than the M18/N18/N17/N4?

The N52 from Birr to Nenagh is a particulary poor section near Borrisokane. It should be downgraded and the NE to SW traffic sent to Roscrea and onto the M7.

Carawaystick

Sponge Bob wrote: »

[Mod]Following on from the discussion which was developing on the N62 Thurles Bypass thread, here's a place to discuss the merits of having many national secondary roads as opposed to regional roads.[/Mod]


There are too many national roads in Ireland for its size . As motorways are built priority should be given to linking main towns by improving routes like the N75 to to the M8 and RETIRING grotty N roads like the N62 to the obscure regional state they deserve.

That will require improvements towards motorways not in parallel to them I agree.

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?


What's all this talk of standards of various roads? the N20 is as bad as any poor N>50 road, especially south of Buttevant.

There are parts of the country with no national route serving reasonable towns with fairly obvious links. Gorey, Arklow and Wicklow should have some link to Carlow, south of the WIcklow mountain main massif.

If you look at the space from Cavan to Sligo and Cavan east to the N2, there's a huge space there with no N roads due to partition.

Or the area between Drogheda and Dublin needs a decent east west route, south of the Boyne.

What would you do about the N58?

The other thing is to remember local needs may warrant a good standard of road, especially places with lots of agriculture. There might be no campaigns any more around Carlow or Mallow, but there are local industries and agricultural areas where a narrow s2 would cause loads of congestion, because of no overtaking opportunities.

Danno

Geez lads, yea sound like them boyos in the 1960s that wanted to close all the rail lines.

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?

Who cares about Roscommon - Roscrea any more than they care about Gort - Tulsk .

These are regional movements . No national significance .

There is an e-w N Road proposal between Dundalk and Sligo with which I do agree but it can go via Enniskillen .

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Who cares about Roscommon - Roscrea any more than they care about Gort - Tulsk .

These are regional movements . No national significance .

Does the fact that many are inter-regional roads not lend them a national significance though?

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is an e-w N Road proposal between Dundalk and Sligo with which I do agree but it can go via Enniskillen .

Sure the N16 is probably 10 times worse than the N66, might as well make that redundant too.

medoc

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do you get from Athlone to Cork?
Or from Roscommon or Longford to Roscrea, Birr or Thurles?


What's all this talk of standards of various roads? the N20 is as bad as any poor N>50 road, especially south of Buttevant.

There are parts of the country with no national route serving reasonable towns with fairly obvious links. Gorey, Arklow and Wicklow should have some link to Carlow, south of the WIcklow mountain main massif.

If you look at the space from Cavan to Sligo and Cavan east to the N2, there's a huge space there with no N roads due to partition.

Or the area between Drogheda and Dublin needs a decent east west route, south of the Boyne.

What would you do about the N58?

The other thing is to remember local needs may warrant a good standard of road, especially places with lots of agriculture. There might be no campaigns any more around Carlow or Mallow, but there are local industries and agricultural areas where a narrow s2 would cause loads of congestion, because of no overtaking opportunities.

Not every town has to be connected with every other town by national routes. Some review of these routes should be undertaken and where a duplication occurs or a better route can be found. National routes should be for longer distance travel eg North to south etc.

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

Does the fact that many are inter-regional roads not lend them a national significance though?

Ahhhh , I was wondering if anyone would spot that .

The midlands have no one big town. The capital is Mullingar / Tullamore / Athlone/ Portlaoise

So the M6 / N52 / N51 / N80 connects them all and also connects them to other regional centres like Galway Cork Limerick and even Dublin . They also cross connect to Dundalk Carlow Wexford Drogheda.

marmurr1916

Zoney wrote: »

SpongeBob:

It's fairly intrinsic to the way our primary routes/motorways are laid out (radial/parallel from Dublin) that secondary routes between them are needed - and more than just the N52/N80 etc. (although I entirely agree that those should get special treatment as the more important ones).

Also there is the aspect of the secondary N routes existing so that traffic uses them rather than random R/local roads (the R roads are really a more generic category than even the minor secondary N roads - even though e.g. urban R roads may be far busier).

I think it makes sense to have the secondary N roads as a classification even where the routes aren't getting much attention.

Indeed. There are several sub-types of national secondary routes.

1. Major linking routes: these include the N80 (connects the south-east to the midlands), the N52 (connects north-east with midlands and south-west), the N61 and N62 (both connect south with midlands and north-west), the N55 and so on.

2. 'Tourist routes': examples include the the N56 (Donegal), the N59 (Sligo to Galway via Mayo/Galway coasts and Clifden), the N67 (Clare), the N70 (most of Ring of Kerry), the N71 (West Cork route) and the N86 (Tralee to Dingle)

3. Short connection routes: shorter routes that connect smaller towns to national primary routes or connect two national routes (eg: N75 connecting Thurles to M8, section of N60 between Castlebar and Claremorris connecting N17 and N5, N77 connecting Kilkenny to N8, N74 between Tipp town and Cashel, connecting N24 and M8)

4. 'Super' R-roads: roads that perform the function that Zoney outlines above: they're designated as national secondary routes to encourage traffic to use them instead of Regional roads.

5. Pointless National Secondary routes: the N83 from Tuam to near Knock Airport via Dunmore and Ballyhaunis (why?), the N84 from Galway to Castlebar via Headford, the N81, the N82, the N87 (at least since the re-building of Aghalane Bridge on the N3/A505).

I suspect that most of the first set of N8x routes (apart from the N80 itself) were designated as such for parish pump reasons.

The N85 and N86 were originally regional roads which were re-designated as national secondary routes because they linked important tourist destinations to the national primary network.

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by Aghalane Bridge being blown up at the border.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by the IRA blowing up Aghalane Bridge at the border.

Which link was repaired 10 years ago , the N3 Bridge reopened in April 1999.

And still we have the N87 , Nationally redundant for over 10 years , FFS

The N83 is the old T road between Galway and Sligo which main route was sent off via Claremorris about 35 years ago as the N17 .

ardmacha

The N87 was re-designated from regional roads because of the gap in the N3/A505 route between Cavan and Enniskillen, a gap caused by the IRA blowing up Aghalane Bridge at the border.

The IRA didn't blow up Aghalane bridge, but the N87 is probably now redundant and a review of N routes would be useful.

marmurr1916

ardmacha wrote: »

The IRA didn't blow up Aghalane bridge, but the N87 is probably now redundant and a review of N routes would be useful.

Well, even if the British blew it up, it was blown up.

A review of National routes would definitely be useful once the improvements under way are finished.

For example, the section of the N18 (N64 before re-classification) between Oranmore and Claregalway will be effectively made redundant (and isolated from the rest of the route) by the completion of the Gort-Tuam scheme.

The N77 will also end at a junction with a regional road when the M8 is completed (unless the existing N8 between Durrow and Portlaoise is re-designated as N77), instead of providing a link between Kilkenny and that route.

A large section of the N78 will also be made redundant by the opening of the link road between Athy and the M9.

That's apart from the fact that the N78 seems to be a fairly pointless National Secondary route, since it links Kilkenny to Dublin via the M9/M7/N7.

Surely the N10/M9/M7/N7 route between Kilkenny and Dublin is all that's needed?

The section of the N52 between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 outside Dundalk is also largely redundant.

The alternative N33/M1 route between Ardee and junction 16/M1 is of a far higher standard and is only about 6km longer.

Other fairly pointless National Secondary routes include the N66, N81, N82, N83 and the N84.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

As for the N51, it would be much better to build a new road between the existing N52 and N51 routes (i.e north of the existing N51, south of the existing N52) from Delvin eastwards, combined with improving the N52 from Mullingar to Delvin.

That way, you'd have one good route connecting Mullingar to Navan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

Good point , maybe extend the N33 west and retire the N52 and N51 in its favour north of Delvin .

The N52 Ardee - Dundalk is certainly surplus to requirements right now...on a national scale .

marmurr1916

biffoman wrote: »

i hear that the n80 from Tullamore to Clara is to be downgraded to an r road fairly soon.this will lose priority for future upgrading.

That's the type of rationalisation of the National road systems that's needed.

The section of the N80 between Tullamore and the M6 via Clara is going to be surplus to requirements once the N52 between Tullamore and the M6 is upgraded.

Tullamore to junction 6 of the M6 (near Moate), via Clara, using the N80, is about 20km.

Tullamore to junction 6 of the M6 (near Moate), using the N52 to junction 5 of the M6, then continuing to junction 6, is about 27km.

Lopping off 20km here and 16km there (the distance between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 for example - see above), when these sections are made redundant by better quality alternative routes, would shorten the National Secondary network by a reasonably significant percentage (to end 2007, it was 2,684km) when added together.

Downgrading 10% or more of the NS network to regional roads would free the NRA to concentrate on the rest of the network.

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The section of the N52 between Ardee and junction 16 of the M1 outside Dundalk is also largely redundant.

The alternative N33/M1 route between Ardee and junction 16/M1 is of a far higher standard and is only about 6km longer.

If you drive up the M1, Derry is signposted from J14 (N32-N2). If you go about 15km up the road, at J16 Mullingar is now signed. This is erroneous, and just goes to show why the N52 between Dundalk and Ardee should be declassified.

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

As for the N51, it would be much better to build a new road between the existing N52 and N51 routes (i.e north of the existing N51, south of the existing N52) from Delvin eastwards, combined with improving the N52 from Mullingar to Delvin.

That way, you'd have one good route connecting Mullingar to Navan, Drogheda and Dundalk.

It also avoids the problems of upgrading the N51 along the River Boyne between Drogheda and Navan.

I would:

-Downgrade the N52 between Delvin and Dundalk to R status
-Upgrade the N52 between Mullingar and Delvin (2+2, online and offline), large bypass south of Delvin, with link road to current N52 serving Clonmellon/Kells. Renumber as N51
-Upgrade the N51 from Delvin to Drogheda (2+2, online and offline). The Navan Bypass is nearly done. Bypass of Athboy and a wide realignment between Slane and Drogheda to avoid Boyne
-Renumber the N52 between Mullingar and the M6 as the N51 (N52 is Nenagh to M6 at Kilbeggan only)
-2+2 Sallins-Dunshauglin-Ashbourne
-Scrap the DOOR

Sponge Bob

nordydan wrote: »

-Scrap the DOOR

Very good , the door is only an excuse to do nothing until 2030 .

medoc

Following on from a suggestion about the N51/N52 is the N62 Thurles thread myidea is,

Downgarde the N52 from Birr to Borrisokane and route the N52 traffic to Roscrea and onto the M7, down grade the N52 north of Ardee and use the N33 onto the M1. Along term aim could be to re number the N52 as N33 after improvements are made to some sections (2+2 where possible), which would provide a Primary route from Northern Ireland to the South West. After the M20 is constructed it could be an alternative route to Cork from Belfast avoiding Dublin and the M50.

As regards other downgrades I think;

N80 North of Tullamore (awaiting Minesterial approval as of now)
N82 Its whole length
N81 Whole length
Possibly the N78 from Athy to the N77 junction

Possible upgrades;

Extend the N77 along the old N8 to Portlaoise or at least extend it to the new M8

medoc

biffoman wrote: »

i hear that the n80 from Tullamore to Clara is to be downgraded to an r road fairly soon.this will lose priority for future upgrading.

There is no need as the N52 to the M6 is there at present and is only a slightly longer route.

There was plans and route options published for an N62 bypass of Birr I had a copy of them on my old laptop but cant find them now. Either way a Thurles (or Birr) bypass is a long way down the list of priorities at the moment. If only we had the boom for a few more years or made better use of it while it was here.