The medieval Dublin thread

Rebelheart

I'd like to gather as much info as possible from everybody about medieval Dublin, which I'll arbitrarily extend to around 1603 here.

I'm going to do my own tour of the walls of Dublin tomorrow and I'm searching in vain so far for a map of the walls which used to be online and was made in, I think, 1905.

Anyway, I did find an account of the walls and castle of Dublin in 1585 by John Perrott, the then lord deputy. It has a huge amount of information about Dublin in that year. Here it is, taken straight from the Calendar of State Papers Ireland, 1574-1585, pp. 590-93:

[font=&quot]Notes on the walls and castle of Dublin, December 1585[/font]

73. A note of the whole circuit of the city walls of Dublin from the tower called-"Bremegbams towre "of the castle, unto the east gate called the " Dame is gate" of the said city, according to the direction of the Lord Deputy. Imprimis from Bermingham's Tower to Stanyhurst's Tower," is 196 foote distant" whereof there is next he said Bermingham's Tower "64 foote" within the castle ditch " not rampered and from thens to Stanirste is towre beinge 1 32 foote sufficientlie rampiered, and firme ground, 20 foote hie from the foundation of the wall, which wall is 28 foote hie, whereof 8 foote is 'abowe the said rampier besydes the garettes, and 7 foote thicke.


The said Stanihurste is towre is rounde without the wall, and skware within, three stories hie, with three tymber loftes, and in the leor storie three lowpes, in the second storie one lowpe, and in the third storie twoe lowps, the wall 6 foote thick, 19 foote sqware, and the towre 46 foote hie besydes the garettes." Then from Stanyhurst's Tower to the Pole [or pool] gate, from the Pole gate to the tower called Genevers [Geneville's ?] tower, from Geneviers tower to St. Nicholas gate, "St. Nicholasgate hawe towe rounde towres without, and sqware within."

From St. Nicholas Gate " to the towre in Sir .-William Sarsfeld's possession is 312 foote distant, whereof there is 74 foote nexte adjoyninge unto St. Nicholas gate of the wall but 36 foote hie, and the firme grounde 9 foote hie within the said wall, and the rest being 238 foote is foure foote and a halfethicke, 16 foote hie, besydes the garettes and a rampier within of 1 5 foote thicke, and nere as hie as the wall in the insyde, besydes the buttres which is from the botom of the diche to the foundation of the wall 1 9 foott goode, by estimation.


The said towre in Sir William Sarsfeldes pocession is a, demy rounde towre fylled with earthe, and nether vawte nor lofte, with foure lowps 11 foote square within the towre, and the wall fouro foote demy thicke and 16 foot hie ewin with the wall before. From the tower in Sir William Sarsfeldes pocession to the smale towre in the pocession of Mr. Christopher Sedgrave is 340 foote distant, and the wall and rampier with the buttris withowte the said wall agreeing in like height and thickness as the other parte of the said wall, rampier, and buttris before mentioned, savinge that there is nó rampier within 80 foote next adjoyning to the said towre in Mr. Sedgrave's pocession.

The said towre in Mr. Sedgrave's pocession is a demy rounde towre with twoe vawtes, one equall with the wall with three lowps, the other with a paire of stayres going upe unto it from the wall and covered for a feve to stand upon with a garet abowte, and 1 1 foote long one waye and 6 foot another waye, the towre 26 foot hie and fowre foote thicke/' From the tower in Mr. Sedgrave's possession to the tower in Mr. Richard Fagan's possession. From the tower in Mr. Fagan's possession to the southeast tower of the New Gate, the wall 17 feet high and 5 feet thick and no rampier within the wall, but houses joining close to the said wall within. "

The neve gatte hawe twoe towres, and every towre is three heightes with towe small towrettes in the tope, and the gatte howse standes betwixt bothe the said towres ; the loer storie of every towre is vawted and the other towe stories lofted ; every towre is 12 foote sqware within the wall, and the wall fyve foote thicke, and in every rowme towe lowps ; the gatt howse is 40 footte one waye and 15 foote another waye, and the height of boethe the said towres from the pavement to the leades is 40 foote besydes the garettes, and there is a portcwlles for the same gatte/' From the north tower of the New Gate to the tower in Mr. Nicholas Fitzsymons's possession is 180 feet.

"The said towre in Mr. Fitzsymons's pocession is a sqware towre, foure storie hie, with three loftes and no vawte, two lowps in the loer storie, three lowps in the second storie, foure loups in the third storie, and foure lowps in the fowrthe storie, the towre 32 foote hie, sixten foote sqware, and three foote thicke." From the towre in Mr. Fitzsymons's possession to "Gormondes gate is 140 foote." The said Gormondes Gate is a square tower two stories high. From Gormondes gate to a tower in " William Harberdes' pocession is 308 foote."

The said tower is a square tower. "From the towre in William Harbard's pocession to Mr. William Usher's howse is 140 foote distant, the wall 14 foote hie, and 5 foote thicke, and nó rampier within nor buttris withoute. The wall of one side of the said Mr. Usher's house to the bridge gatte is 104 foote, the wall 4 foot thicke and 19 foote hie, and the ground is firme, 5 foot hie, within the said wall, and the Liffie goethe hard by, and at every full sea it floes upe against the said wall, being a springe tyde.

The said brydge gate is a square towre, towe storie hie, the loer storie is a vawte with 2 loops, the upper storie is a timber lofte and 110 loupe, the towre is square 1 8 foote one waye and 1 4 foote another waye, the wall 7 foote thicke and 30 foot hie from the payment. From the bridge gate along the Marchaunt key to Prickettes towre is 843 foote distant, and the key 9 foote hie from the chanell to the payment."


"From Prickettes towre along the woode key to Mr. Fianes castell is 356 foete distant, and the key agreing in height from the chanell to the payment as before/' " From Mr. Fian's castell to a small towre in the pocession of Fitzsymon of Balmadroght, is 144 foote distant, and the payment from the channell agreing in height as the key before/' " From Fitzsymon's towre to Issold's towre is 1 74 foote." The said Issold's tower is a round tower, two stories high.

" From Issoldes towre to an okle towre caled Buttevantes towre is 106 foote." The ground within the wall is within 10 foot as high as the wall.

" From Buttevantes towre to the rounde halfe towre adjoyninge to Mr. Robert Bise is house is 188 foote distant/'" The said towre joyning to Mr. Bise is house is a demy towre with three storie heights, no vawte but towe loftes, with three lowps in the loer rowme, and 2 lowps in the second rowme, the wall 4 foote thicke, 26 foote hie and 16 foote square within the walls."

"From Mr. Bise is towre to the easte gatte called Dames gate is 108 foote distant, the wall 17 foote hie and 5 foote thicke, and the ground firme within agreing in height with the reste before."

"The depte of the Liffie, from the bridge to over against Mr. Walter Balles house is 6 foote demy, from over againste Mr. Balles house to over againste Mr. John Forster's house is 4 foote demy. From over againste Mr. Forster's house to over againste Pricketes towre is 6 foote, from over againste Prickettes towre to over againste Mr. Fians castell is 4 foote, from over againste Mr. Fians castell to the west ende of Mr. Brown's building is 3 foote.

From over againste the weste end of Mr. Brown's building to over againste Issoldes towre is 4 foote, &c." " There can be sixe foote depe of watter at leaste drawin in to all the diches abowte the towne, with chardges done upon cleaning of the said diches, and upon mackinge of slwssis for to staye the watter where the grounde do not meett . . in height Iwell." With a note of the several pieces of ordnance belonging to the city of Dublin.



74. A note of the towers of the castle of Dublin, and what flankers are meet to be made for the defence thereof.
" The Norweste towre. In the dongeon ther is never a spicke. In the second roume there is thre spickes, one flankinge the west wall to the square towre, the seconde skoureth into the toune north weste, the thirde flankethe the north wall towards the Castle gate."
" The number of spickes and windowes that are on the out side of the Castle, fourscore and one." " Over the gate ther wanteth a murdring hole and a portcullis, and over the gardin dore the wall is verie thinne and weke by means ther hath bene, as I thinke, a murdringe holl and portcullis and nowe ther is none. The north este towre, the soueth este towre and the middle towre, unto Brimejame is towre in all the battlementes of the wals and tours ther is neyther spicke nor loup."

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All contributions to reimagining medieval Dublin here on Boards.ie would be brilliant.

Fratton Fred

Have you thought about a visit to Dalkey Castle and Heritage centre? they have quite a bit of info on Medieval Dublin.

MarchDub

I know the 1905 map you refer to and have a copy somewhere but can't find it right now. Here is a link to the John Speed 1610 map that shows the walls. You can zoom in for a better view.


http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learning-zone/primary-students/please-select/5th-+-6th-class/history/history-of-maps/dublin-in-maps/

Doozie

Howard Clarke recreated a map of Dublin which included the walls of Dublin based on excavations and other maps including Speeds mentioned above. It is currently available in the most recent edition of the Historic Town Atlas series (series II) which is available to buy in the RIA (or online). I'll pm you a few more details as thats right down my alley (pardon the pun):p

Also, part of the Dublin walls destroyed by the construction of the Dublin Civic Offices are now on show as a rebuilt structure underneath the offices. They are part of a 'My City' digital exhibition which opened recently (although I was there today and the walls bit was closed). It was open for innovation Dublin event but I think the official opening should be some time this month. The exhibition is beside the Amphitheatre at the offices which is down St. Michael's Hill on the right hand side just before the entrance into the car park.

Rebelheart

MarchDub wrote: »

I know the 1905 map you refer to and have a copy somewhere but can't find it right now. Here is a link to the John Speed 1610 map that shows the walls. You can zoom in for a better view.


http://www.askaboutireland.ie/learning-zone/primary-students/please-select/5th-+-6th-class/history/history-of-maps/dublin-in-maps/

Absolutely superb, MarchDub. That one is much better than the 1905 one. I never knew Speed mapped Dublin as well as Galway. It will definitely be used on my next tour.

Rebelheart

Doozie wrote: »

Howard Clarke recreated a map of Dublin which included the walls of Dublin based on excavations and other maps including Speeds mentioned above. It is currently available in the most recent edition of the Historic Town Atlas series (series II) which is available to buy in the RIA (or online). I'll pm you a few more details as thats right down my alley (pardon the pun):p

Also, part of the Dublin walls destroyed by the construction of the Dublin Civic Offices are now on show as a rebuilt structure underneath the offices. They are part of a 'My City' digital exhibition which opened recently (although I was there today and the walls bit was closed). It was open for innovation Dublin event but I think the official opening should be some time this month. The exhibition is beside the Amphitheatre at the offices which is down St. Michael's Hill on the right hand side just before the entrance into the car park.

Thank you so much for that, Doozie. I never knew about that exhibition under the Civic Offices. The surprise of the day for me was definitely Dublinia. I was taken aback by it. The last time I had been near that site was when the Viking village was in existence which is a long time ago. I only had an hour to spend in Dublinia but next time I will spend an entire day there. It seems like a place kids would not get bored in either.

The large model of medieval Dublin was amazing. Do you know who made it? I particularly liked the details on the view of the city from each side. I spent most of my hour soaking the information in there.

http://www.dublinia.ie/

Rebelheart

One thing, though, from that model is that Dublin seemed to have an inner and outer wall in the medieval period. Is this correct? If so, was Cook Street, where a gate exists from 1240 (St Audoen's Gate), outside the outer wall? I see on Speed's map that the outer wall was along the Liffey but apparently in the medieval period the Liffey was much wider than today. I have read elsewhere that Cook Street was outside the walls of Dublin as there was a danger that the cooks could set fire to homes inside the walls. Any truth to that?

Also, was the Cornmarket area outside or inside the inner walls? You can see the old remains of Dublin's walls right next to it, and there is a light illuminating the pavement across Thomas Street towards the Brazenhead outlining where the old wall used to be. This appears to be at the junction of the Cornmarket and Thomas Street and might imply that the former was inside the walls. However, would it not make more sense that the Cornmarket was outside the walls for security reasons as it would have attracted a large crowd and it would have been easier to control things by keeping them just outside the walls?

PS: Is Fishamble Street named after a fish shambles (there were, at least, meat shambles in the medieval period) or the place where people ambled/walked around to buy their fish?

Doozie

Rebelheart wrote: »

The surprise of the day for me was definitely Dublinia. I was taken aback by it. The large model of medieval Dublin was amazing. Do you know who made it? I particularly liked the details on the view of the city from each side. I spent most of my hour soaking the information in there.

http://www.dublinia.ie/

Thanks for all that but we still have a way to go (including a new website!) watch this space...

Rebelheart wrote: »

One thing, though, from that model is that Dublin seemed to have an inner and outer wall in the medieval period. Is this correct? If so, was Cook Street, where a gate exists from 1240 (St Audoen's Gate), outside the outer wall? I have read elsewhere that Cook Street was outside the walls of Dublin as there was a danger that the cooks could set fire to homes inside the walls. Any truth to that?

Also, was the Cornmarket area outside or inside the inner walls?

PS: Is Fishamble Street named after a fish shambles

The walls have two phases and extended up to, but not over the Cornmarket area which would have acted as a focal point for the area. I believe there was a tower there also. The earthen defensive banks were replaced with stone walls around the 1100's. This is the Cook St line you referred to and it was extended back as early as around 1221 when the Liffey had silted up and merchant houses were built along there, outside the city walls at cook st.
Fishamble st curves around in typical medieval fashion and could be aligned with the original Slighe Mhor trackway. The Woodquay excavations were destroyed along this side of the site by the hoarding (which you would have seen in our Archaeology exhibition in Dublinia) so some of the information is limited.
A seris of quaysides were built and fishermen could have unloaded their stock for sale or sold it there.
I understand that due to the burning hazards assoicated with furnaces etc that any industry involving fire would have taken place outside the city walls.

If you want to pm me your email address I'll send you a picture of the map of Dublin.
This is a great publication too 'Dublin City, Walls and Defences' by Linzi Simpson and Dublin City Council' .

MarchDub

Found my copy of the 1904 Dublin map by Leonard Strangways but it is too large to scan in on my scanner but a web search using his name came up with this copy:


http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/General/oldwalls.htm

A question I have for Doozie is that the "original walls" are marked along Cook St but there is also a wall "new walls" along Merchants Quay which seem to form an inner box to the whole walled area. But these I understand from what you say were not extant at the same time?

Doozie

MarchDub wrote: »

http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/General/oldwalls.htm

A question I have for Doozie is that the "original walls" are marked along Cook St but there is also a wall "new walls" along Merchants Quay which seem to form an inner box to the whole walled area. But these I understand from what you say were not extant at the same time?

Yeah, thats right. the first stone walls were built 1100 - 1125, referred to as the original walls on the link you provided. The 'new' walls were built after the Anglo-Normans arrived and as the Liffey silted up. The map you have shows the walls intact but I'm not sure if they were so intact then. Check your source as it may be an historic artists impression of what the author felt Dublin would have looked like, but I'm just guessing.

Apparently there was demolition of the walls from the late seventeenth century.

MarchDub

Doozie wrote: »

Yeah, thats right. the first stone walls were built 1100 - 1125, referred to as the original walls on the link you provided. The 'new' walls were built after the Anglo-Normans arrived and as the Liffey silted up. The map you have shows the walls intact but I'm not sure if they were so intact then. Check your source as it may be an historic artists impression of what the author felt Dublin would have looked like, but I'm just guessing.

Apparently there was demolition of the walls from the late seventeenth century.

Thanks. Good info.
The source is the 1904 map that the OP Rebelheart was trying to locate. You can see the original source info on the map and if you scroll down under it also. My guess is that Leonard Strangways was quite well known back in the early 20th century? I have had a copy of this map for years but I don't know the original purpose of it being drawn up. I got it from someone who worked as a surveyor in Dublin Corporation - but that might mean nothing, or something alarming!

Doozie

MarchDub wrote: »

My guess is that Leonard Strangways was quite well known back in the early 20th century? I have had a copy of this map for years but I don't know the original purpose of it being drawn up. I got it from someone who worked as a surveyor in Dublin Corporation - but that might mean nothing, or something alarming!

Hmmm... and he seems to have been an architect back then. Verrrrrryyyyyy inntterrreesttinnnggg

Millucc

Doozie wrote: »

The map you have shows the walls intact but I'm not sure if they were so intact then.

Yes, they were.

Rebelheart

Thanks a million to Doozie for giving me a load of historical information on the walls of Dublin today. I'm still going through it now. I notice Dame Gate is spelled Dam Gate. Is this a typo, or did it exist in the original or was there some form of Dam there were the river (tributary of the Liffey?) flowed up from the Liffey to and around Dublin Castle?

But according to this 'Dame Street derives its name from Dame's Gate, the eastern gate of the city adjoining the Church of St Mary del Dame.' So I assume it's really Dame rather than Dam.

Also, apparently there exists a map of modern Dublin with a map of medieval Dublin superimposed or alongside it just to demonstrate the contrast. Does anybody know where this map can be found?

Thanks.

Doozie

Rebelheart wrote: »

I notice Dame Gate is spelled Dam Gate. Is this a typo, or did it exist in the original or was there some form of Dam there were the river (tributary of the Liffey?) flowed up from the Liffey to and around Dublin Castle?

But according to this 'Dame Street derives its name from Dame's Gate, the eastern gate of the city adjoining the Church of St Mary del Dame.' So I assume it's really Dame rather than Dam.

Also, apparently there exists a map of modern Dublin with a map of medieval Dublin superimposed or alongside it just to demonstrate the contrast. Does anybody know where this map can be found?

Thanks.

There is reference from September 1315 that the bell tower of 'St Mary del Dam' (spelt that way) was to be destroyed and the gate of 'Del Dam' was to remain closed. So I assume the addition of the 'e' (or 'as' on Speeds map) may be a variation. So this church had a dam, hence the name?

Also, your suggestion about the water course of Dublin is spot on. The watercourse did flow by Dam Gate (if you look at the photocopy of the map I gave you you might be able to see it but perhaps the copy is too bad? You should see how the water flowed along the line of where the city's walls rested, around by Dublin castle and into the pool (at Chester Beaty Gardens and further on at a time too up St. Patrick's st. In fact, right where the Olympia is, it dips down naturally along Dame st, well that is where you can imagine the water came up from the Liffey and curved around by Dublin Castles walls.
Kinda cool really.

Rebelheart

For those of you with both an iPhone and a grá for Dublin history, Níall Ó hOisín of Nóho has just created an app of medieval Dublin for the iPhone. It costs €2.99 and is replete with images and a virtual tour guide of medieval Dublin. It's based on all the latest relevant historical and archaeological research on medieval Dublin, with Dublinia, Howard Clarke of UCD, Dublin City Council and the OPW all contributing to the research underpinning the app.

The Irish Times article on it is here: Time travel with an app (Saturday 12 February 2011)

You can buy the 'Dublin City Walls' app here from iTunes.

InTheTrees

Doozie wrote: »

Also, part of the Dublin walls destroyed by the construction of the Dublin Civic Offices are now on show as a rebuilt structure underneath the offices.

There's a large section of the old walls including parts of the river entrance under Dublin Castle and the offices there. Is that what you meant by civic offices?

InTheTrees

Isnt one of those doorways on the Cook Street walls know as the "Gates of Hell"? I head that somewhere, sorry if its off topic.

What is the modern equivalent of the bridge marked at #5 in the askaboutireland.ie map?

Fuzzy Clam

Deleted User wrote: »

What is the modern equivalent of the bridge marked at #5 in the askaboutireland.ie map?

Whitworth Bridge?