I promised a thread on the future of Boards...

DeVore

... and this isnt really it.

I just didnt want to let it slide so I will explain where my thinking is.

1. A few months back the directors (Dan, John, Tom, Paul, Eamonn) met and decided that Boards needs some form of "Constitution" or at least a community framework. I got tasked with having a big hard think about that and to report back.

2. I have been having a big long hard think about it.

3. I'm starting to have chats with a few groups, specific users, admins, mods etc in order to "check my head".

4. I'm not happy with where I have gotten too but I hope to firm up my thinking within 2 weeks.

5. I will then start to discuss it much more seriously with three groups: Admins, Mods, Users, in order to take on feedback and also to get a lot of parallel thinking on it.

What is the idea of the constitution? Well, its a big big task, but effectively it will be a document of the deeper thinking about what this site is, where its going, its purpose, intent and raison d'etre. Also specifically about how we govern ourselves and how we build something which isnt reliant on a DeVore or any one given individual.

How can we mature as a community to take more control over ourselves and how we reincarnate as people arrive and leave the Boards "bus"

Also, to specifically detail some high level intentions of the site so that people have some idea where the bus is going, so they know if they want to power it or not.

How should users be represented, and to *what* are they represented? Should there be some form of Supreme court, separated from the Judicary, Legislative and Policing branches?


The direction from the board was very clear, develop a plan which allows the community to be self-perpetuating in a way that:

1. Cant be gamed so that the best interests of the community are kept at the centre of the site and not in the hands of people who want to screw stuff up.

2. Anything which could land the board of directors in jail or trouble, is to be left to them to decide. (Its all well and good that we have our own thing going on in here... but there is a big bad world out there and they dont care about our intentions here... they will go after those 5 and its our asses on the line, so... thats fair enough I think )

THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THE DISCUSSION OF THE SPECIFICS OF THE CONSTITUTION THING... I'm no where near that point yet, but if you have feedback on the way we should go about thinking about it... then feel free. Whinging and point scoring will just get deleted, I want to have a big blue sky think about where Boards could be in say, a years time or three years time, in terms of managing itself.

DeV.

leninbenjamin

A constitution isn't a bad idea, but it might be making a mountain out of a molehill. A clear and concise mission statement might be just as effective.

Mr.Applepie

Sounds like the European Constitution.

Maybe every forum could vote on it?

FlutterinBantam

Loads of cobblers.

Boards.ie is a blackboard, whiteboard, clean wall, for people to write on and express opinions.

Of course the site owners and controllers may have a path they wish to follow to generate revenue and position themselves as an authentic voice of population Ireland,and be able to point to what amounts to ABC readership for the benefit of advertising and future partnership.

This poster cares not a whit what direction Boards.ie is going, will go, has gone.

Best of luck with your task DeV

zuroph

If it aint broke dont fix it IMO.

DeVore

Ok Fluttering... but if you look at the feedback thread that Boston started, its clear that many DO want to have a say in where it goes and how its managed.

If you arent interested, grand, but dont let your cynicism stand in the way of other people getting involved.

You basically took the time to post "I dont care enough to take the time to post". Oh and some tired barbs about commercialism.

Let me make this clear, in case you think I'm hiding something:

I want to retire one day and have that retirement funded by Boards.ie. I have always said this. But along the way, its ALSO possible that we create a unique place online the like of which no other country has and in doing so create something SO powerful that it bends the will of politicians and companies alike to interact with it along the lines IT chooses.

If I could create that, I would consider my life to be a success. To do that I need to be thinking about how this site works when I'm dead. When no one knows what Quake is. When Internet access is a "right".

You think I'm "greedy" but you have no idea of the scope of my ambition, it goes far far beyond mere money.

If it was all about the benjamins, why would I be trying to create a system which governs itself free from control by any single group or person?

So, I understand you arent interested. Thats ok, you can take your cyncism, and leave.

DeV.

DeVore

zuroph wrote: »

If it aint broke dont fix it IMO.

Thats quite definitely an option but perhaps it is broke... or perhaps its not broke now but when there are 5000 moderators... it will be broke. Or perhaps its ok now but cant grow to what we want it to become.

but certainly, your point has merit and should/will be considered.

DeV.

DeVore

leninbenjamin wrote: »

A constitution isn't a bad idea, but it might be making a mountain out of a molehill. A clear and concise mission statement might be just as effective.

It might be that its a short document, but you can still end up with a short document after a lot of hard thinking.

I think we will need a full forum to kick about the ideas, so step one (when I do get started) will be to create a specific forum open to all to kick about blue sky ideas for the future of Boards.

DeV.

itsallaboutheL

DeVore wrote: »

Thats quite definitely an option but perhaps it is broke... or perhaps its not broke now but when there are 5000 moderators... it will be broke. Or perhaps its ok now but cant grow to what we want it to become.

but certainly, your point has merit and should/will be considered.

DeV.

It's a lazy option imo, just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it can't be improved upon..

I think the main question here is the highlighted part of DeV's post above, exactly what do ye want it to become?

I don't believe that you are obligated to tell us what you're plans are but if you were to outline your musings it would be appreciated i'm sure.

zuroph

DeVore wrote: »

Thats quite definitely an option but perhaps it is broke... or perhaps its not broke now but when there are 5000 moderators... it will be broke. Or perhaps its ok now but cant grow to what we want it to become.

but certainly, your point has merit and should/will be considered.

DeV.

I've seen little wrong with the progress boards is making at present, and in my time from having access to teh super sekrit mod forums. there is good procedure in place, and everything seems to work, bar one or two small things that ye're aware of and are fine tuning. sure, the site has the oppurtuinty to grow and grow, but that just means adding to the admins and mods, doing more of the same. how big the place can get is a mystery, at the moment, there seems to be a forum for everything, and a system to fill the gaps.
Without being pessimistic, I'd feel putting a constition or mission plan in place today will only limit the ideas you come up with tomorrow. truth is, you don't know where to go next. I can imagine further integration into social networking etc, but until you know for sure, is there a point in hashing a plan together?
I'd prefer to see a "stay on top of things, and adapt with the net" as a general plan. Geocities finished up this week. For years everyone thought that would be the future of the net. youtube only came about in recent years. Google wave could be the next revolution. Blogging and tweeting are this years buzzwords, but they don't quite "click" with boards. Boards is what it is, and it works for that reason. People don't need to be online at the same time, they can catch up when they want, and take part. putting a dramatic plan in place could take the focus off what is a succesful operation so far.

sorry for the ramble!

My name is URL

The only thing that needs fixing is the way Helpdesk & Feedback work, imo.. though I'm sure those running the site have a 360° view, so maybe I'm wrong

The amount of topics started about modding and so on is mental, why issues with moderation cannot be dealt with by the moderators involved, in the forums they mod is beyond me.

Each category should have a forum dedicated to Feedback and Help, where the mods can deal with issues and decide amongst themselves if any particular issue warrants been escalated to the attention of Admins. That'd free up their time, and limit a good deal of the soapboxing that goes on.. and it'd be fairer to members too, mods from different forums won't be able to show favoritism to each other

I don't think there needs to be a formal constitution, no need to complicate things.. and it won't change how people use the site

Villain

I think "My Name is URL" makes good points.

IMO one real problem is people not understanding that they are responsible for what they post and I think that needs to be heart of what ever rules or systems are put in place.

People think they can hide behind a Username and let the owners of the site take the heat if a problem arises. I'm not a legal head so I don't know whats involved in making people soley reponsible for what they post or even if that already if the case.

A system where employed individuals with no connections to smods or mods can look at major issues and resolve them is a must imo

DeVore

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

It's a lazy option imo, just because something isn't broken doesn't mean it can't be improved upon..

I think the main question here is the highlighted part of DeV's post above, exactly what do ye want it to become?

I don't believe that you are obligated to tell us what you're plans are but if you were to outline your musings it would be appreciated i'm sure.

I will, I need a bit of time to really phrase the questions correctly and also to have a long hard think about things myself. The reason i raised this now is because i promised I would, but I've realised I'm slightly pre-empting myself but didnt want people to think I had ignored it.

in answer to the general points raised above:
My job in part has always been to think about the next step before we arrive at it. For example, we put in ad banners long before we needed new servers but it was actually just in time because we needed to gather money to buy new servers and in fact that money arrived just in the nick of time.
Similarly we made a deal with Daft in order to hire the team we have. If we hadnt. we'd be offline now. No doubt in my mind for one second about that. There wouldnt be a boards.ie if it werent for Ross. And now, also Conor, Dav and Darragh. But there were rocky periods and Ross was our answer. If we hadnt had him, *boom* no Boards today. (I dont claim credit for that either, much of the credit goes to Gerry).

What I'm saying is, I'm trying to think of 2 years from now. i'm trying to think of a "Boards without DeVore". Maybe we dont find any better way to do it, but we, I, should be looking.

Helpdesk and feedback are the sharp ends of a problem we need to face imho. Its a good place to start as any but I want to treat the cause, not the symptoms.
Zuroph, good points, I'm very aware of the fact that we have been successful so there cant be *much* wrong with what we are going *now*. I'm curious if theres a better way for the future though. A way to extend more of a say in the site to interested parties. Perhaps not, but also, perhaps so...


DeV.

DeVore

Villain wrote: »

I think "My Name is URL" makes good points.

IMO one real problem is people not understanding that they are responsible for what they post and I think that needs to be heart of what ever rules or systems are put in place.

People think they can hide behind a Username and let the owners of the site take the heat if a problem arises. I'm not a legal head so I don't know whats involved in making people soley reponsible for what they post or even if that already if the case.

A system where employed individuals with no connections to smods or mods can look at major issues and resolve them is a must imo

I dont think "employed individuals" should be left with the sole responsibility for that task. I think it will create a feeling of "ulterior motive" or "serving two masters". The other alternative is having a system of some sort of unaligned representatives but then we get into the grey area of selection of those reps. Lets not tackle that here and now cos I'm still researching that but suffice it to say that the "Conflict resolution" area is a primary concern to me.

DeV.

themadchef

I am an average Joesephine, and i know there is nothing preventing posters like myself expressing opinions in here. Chances are for what ever reasons we won't.

Please, pretty please, bring back the thanks function so we can show our support for other posters ideas.

therecklessone

My name is URL wrote: »

The amount of topics started about modding and so on is mental, why issues with moderation cannot be dealt with by the moderators involved, in the forums they mod is beyond me.

Each category should have a forum dedicated to Feedback and Help, where the mods can deal with issues and decide amongst themselves if any particular issue warrants been escalated to the attention of Admins. That'd free up their time, and limit a good deal of the soapboxing that goes on.. and it'd be fairer to members too, mods from different forums won't be able to show favoritism to each other

As somebody who is the subject of my fair share (and then some ) of Help desk and Feedback threads, the reason why we are often unable to settle things with users is that they simply don't accept our decisions and want to appeal to a higher level of authority, and I'd hate to see that option removed from users.

Cat Feedback forums would be a good addition, with a couple of Cat Mods assigned to provide oversight.

That will only work if the user base accepts the authority vested in those Cat Mods though.

Rb

A "boards without DeVore" two years from now? Interesting...

I would say that I would hope you'd pay those involved in this "feedback" you'll be asking them for, however I think it's more than apparent that there's enough gob****es around here who'll work for free for you to milk before it should come to that.

I'm glad you're more forthcoming about where your priorities lie for the site (i.e making mula for you to retire on) and I certainly cannot blame you.

DeVore

Ok, while we are dangerously close to taking about the detail, I do like some of these ideas. I particularly like the way people are thinking about what things are "fair" and how we build an equitable community.

I really just wanted to say I havent forgotten my promise to open this topic up for discussion. Nov 17th or before, i'll open a new forum under here called Boarderati and we'll have a whole forum to chase mad ideas and kick sh*t about. Perhaps thats the best way to go about this. I need to do a lot more thinking though, for example:
We need a checks and balances mechanism to keep our User-Mod-Admin structure from veering towards excesses. Something "outside" the system the way the founder admins used to be (more or less). A group that represent a different view, one that is as much a representation of the users as it is the mods or admins or company (who need to be represented because we are in symbiosis with it, they live, we live, they die, we die and vice versa).

So, how do we go about selectin that group? Elections? I dont like elections... I don't like online votes. But is there a better way? In whom do we vest our trust (currently thats pretty much "DeVore" but that cant continue indefinitely).

I'm not looking for an answer to that question (yet) I'm trying to give you an idea of where my brain is at and why I've so much thinking to do, and reading. (Political Theory and other community structures, like Wikipedia).


DeV.

My name is URL

therecklessone wrote: »

As somebody who is the subject of my fair share (and then some ) of Help desk and Feedback threads, the reason why we are often unable to settle things with users is that they simply don't accept our decisions and want to appeal to a higher level of authority, and I'd hate to see that option removed from users.

Cat Feedback forums would be a good addition, with a couple of Cat Mods assigned to provide oversight.

That will only work if the user base accepts the authority vested in those Cat Mods though.

Yeah, I guess that some people will always feel hard done by.

It's a bit stupid though because Mods are just like Admins at the end of the day, it's rare (from what I can tell) that a mod decision is ever overturned by an Admin, so there's really no point in immediately getting them involved

If the Cat Mod can't mediate with the member that has an issue it would be elevated to admins.. It'd still be the same system essentially, but only those connected to the forum in question would have a say in the outcome, most of the time.

DeVore

Rb wrote: »

A "boards without DeVore" two years from now? Interesting...

I would say that I would hope you'd pay those involved in this "feedback" you'll be asking them for, however I think it's more than apparent that there's enough gob****es around here who'll work for free for you to milk before it should come to that.

I'm glad you're more forthcoming about where your priorities lie for the site (i.e making mula for you to retire on) and I certainly cannot blame you.

I dont need you. I dont need that sort of bile either. I dont know why you come here, just to spit invective at us, but I'm not going to allow it any further.

I've permanently banned Rb from feedback. I know where he stands, I dont need to be told it a million times.

DeV.

therecklessone

DeVore wrote: »

So, how do we go about selectin that group? Elections? I dont like elections... I don't like online votes. But is there a better way? In whom do we vest our trust (currently thats pretty much "DeVore" but that cant continue indefinitely).

What about selection by lottery?

Random selection of any user who meets certain criteria (post count, posts per day, posts in last year, whatever you choose), ask each individual will they participate and move down your list if the first drawn say no.

Villain

Umm selection on that one will be tough, elections have one major advantage its something I have posted a few times in Politics, "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve" George Bernard Shaw. So people can't complain because they elected the people.

However that has flaws too and to be honest I'm not sure a site like Boards would work in a democracy type system. I think a mixture of selection along with elections might work i.e. The Admins propose 5 users, the Mods propose 5 and the Users propose 5.

Systems where each type of member is represented will always get more support so if the General users, Admins and Mods each choose a voice the sysem might have some chance. You will never keep everyone happy its trying to find a happy medium and I wish you luck with that

zuroph

surely the mods would jsut choose when they need new mods, and the admins could choose when they need new admins?

Earthhorse

Thanks for starting this thread, Dev, even if it isn't the one you'd talked about starting; I think continual communication is a huge part of making any large organisation work so it's good to see it in action.

You've said this isn't the thread for specifics so I won't go into any here (you may have seen them in Boston's thread) but broadly speaking I think creating a system that is transparent is really important - this is the information age so give us information on how decisions were reached and why. There's a difficult balancing act to be had there with sensitive information and privacy issues.

What I think you need to consider in constructing something that permanently works is:

1. Protections from the governing body (or bodies) getting taken over by vested interests.
2. Acceptance that that may happen and a method of correcting it.

I don't know how you build that into a system (I suspect if anybody did we'd have far better organisations in the world today).

I'm glad to see conflict resolution is high on your list of priorities; I think this is an area that will be of growing importance as boards grows bigger and bigger and merges more and more with people's "real" lives.

Earthhorse

Sorry, one point I forgot; I don't know how you select the representatives (i.e. the best way to). I think the current method of using existing trusted users is beginning to fray (only slightly though) as more and more forums come under control of a slowly expanding group of users. One thing I would say is that rotation of reps is very important as people become jaded and myopic the longer they have been dealing with the same things over and over and over again.

5starpool

Elections of that sort would be pretty pointless imo, as a pain in the ass poster from AH (not saying that AH posters are pains in the ass, just that there are some who are like every forum) would get more votes than a really good long term poster from some of the less busy forums. It would not be a level playing field at all imo. I personally think user appointed reps deciding on helpdesk issues is a pretty unworkable idea.

Hank Scorpio

5starpool wrote: »

Elections of that sort would be pretty pointless imo, as a pain in the ass poster from AH (not saying that AH posters are pains in the ass, just that there are some who are like every forum) would get more votes than a really good long term poster from some of the less busy forums. It would not be a level playing field at all imo. I personally think user appointed reps deciding on helpdesk issues is a pretty unworkable idea.

totally agree with this post, as normal

Gonzales

A constitution sounds good. Could we get it in plain english when it comes around.

good luck with it.

Bubs101

I don't think there's any need for any changes let alone something drastic like a constitution. Boards is a community that has one overlord figure in yourself and then a recognized structure of power that ends with the mods who have administrative powers in their own fora. There's nothing wrong with it. There's a learning curve to using boards, same as any forum and once you get used to how it's run it's great.

I really think your overcomplicating things with a constitution and talking about who represents the posters. Each poster is well capable of representing and defending themselves (I'm presuming your talking within the website and not from external actors). People express opinions on here every minute so they are more than capable of expressing an opinion of a percieved wrongdoing to them in the same format they're used to. Any constitution that's brought in will just be left unread by the clear majority of posters and will probably end up being used against them when a Mod who has read it is defending themselves.

I'd also be dissapointed about taking Boards in a more mature direction. Just because you're growing up Dev doesn't mean everyone else on the forum is;). Good natured immature trolling comments can often be highlights of the day and plenty of posts of the day are just first page trolling attempts on after hours threads ripping the piss out of the first poster

Being honest, if I log onto boards one day and a pop up comes up informing me of a new constitution and urging me to read it I'm xing it and heading right to the soccer forum to look at the latest pointless argument between Boggles and Mr. Alan or the LOI fans vs. the EPL ones

Karl Hungus

DeVore wrote: »

How should users be represented, and to *what* are they represented? Should there be some form of Supreme court, separated from the Judicary, Legislative and Policing branches?

Seriously?

And a 'constitution'?

...

Seriously?

Am I the only one here thinking that boards.ie is in danger of becoming a parody of itself? It's a message board, and there are other message boards on the internet far, far more vast and popular than boards, yet none of them even seem to flirt with this 'nation state' ambitions.

I really do hope you're joking about this supreme court nonsense DeV, and my sleep starved mind is just making me look a fool for not copping on to it. But it's a freakin' message board, it's a platform for discussion, and if people abuse that platform then it should be as simple as chucking those people out on their ear. Considering that most complaints about mods on the helpdesk consist of a user getting an infraction, or ban, and getting in a fuss for being told off, I can't imagine the chaos if every one of these muppets got 'representation'. It's bad enough people abusing the good faith of admins on the prison forum, getting unbanned and then continuing to spam/troll/be abusive.

I think you could pay no greater insult to your moderators, to the people who are putting their time and effort for nothing more than the love of the site, than to appoint some kind of representative to scrutinize mod actions on behalf of users. I've no faith that such a system wouldn't be abused by every banned muppet with a chip on their shoulder and an unwillingness to abide by the site rules or learn from their mistakes.

Please tell me this is some sort of joke, lest boards becomes the joke. I don't even know if I want to be a part of a message board that has delusions of grandeur. And I don't mean that as an insult DeV, boards has been a part of my life for a good 8 years now, and they have been an extremely good 8 years because I met so many friends over the website, had many great times and there's no doubt that my perspective on life wouldn't be the same without boards. It's an absolutely amazing message board, you have a truly great creation here and you forget that. But all this talk about the direction of the site, it is feeling less and less like a community. Boards.ie the community is a fantastic thing, but boards.ie the bureaucratic nation state entity? I doubt that will be something I want to be a part of.

Here's hoping the joke's on me. Constitution? Cool story, bro! :pac:

CHD

I blame Obama for everyone thinking things should change.

Leave the place as it is. It is perfect.