Boilerhouse at 8pms on Saturday, for example

MicraBoy

shoegirl wrote: »

There is no logic to it. How can you possibly assess demand for a service that is unavailable as there is no way to measure demand for it?

My point is that we simply do not know about the demands and wants of womens sexuality and cannot make assumptions that simply because a service is not there, that there is no demand for it.

Market research?

Cabbage Brained

Shoegirl, you can never accurately assess the demand for any product or service, as it depends on so many factors that to get a true picture would be mathematically impossible.

However, the fact that a potentially profitable good or service isn't on the market is generally an indication that there is little or no demand for that good or service. Economics would argue that if there was demand for that good or service, and somebody could profitably establish one, then it would already have been established.

I don't know of any lesbian saunas around the world, let alone in Dublin. So I think it is fairly safe to assume that there is not much lesbian demand for saunas.

EDIT to apologise for shoegirl for not reading the whole thread. That feminist movement could well be acting as a barrier to entry, despite there being demand for such a place for women. I think you should set up your own separatist movement and establish Irelands first lesbian sauna!

shoegirl

MicraBoy wrote: »

Market research?

Rather expensive. I certainly know of two places in the UK that are running events for women. Fetish events are especially popular with women, and to me, it certainly does raise questions (based on a long history of being on the Irish scene) as to why these events are not happening at all on the mainstream scene.

Fun 4 Females in London organize regular play parties for women in the London region and a different group in the Brighton area arrange a womens night a few times a year in one of the mens saunas, which apparently are so popular THEY SELL OUT in advance!!

Its far easier to just cater for a "traditional" clientele than to take risks doing new things. Especially where women scene is concerned as a lot of womens nights, even mainstream ones, just don't get supported at all.

A lot of the problem I see, certainly in Ireland, is that there is a big cultural thing about a woman going into a bar on her own, and a lot of gay women are a lot more closeted than guys ("lezzie" is still a huge insult in much of Ireland) so they often don't know any other women. As a result a lot of women go out with gay guys - and this makes it hard for them to go to womens events that exclude men. Its not surprising that many of the most long standing and popular clubs over the last 10 years in Dublin had a "men as guests" policy. In fact its fascinating to watch what looks like "straight couples" arriving into places like Kiss and then realise that the guy has gone off with another guy, and the girl has gone off with another girl! Amusing, and definitely something some day I'd love to research further. There is a very deep friendship very often between individual gay men and gay women that is very interesting in cultures which are often very monogendered.

Nevyn

Firstly can we quit it with the feminist bashing, not all feminist are prudes there are sex positive feminists.

Secondly I think it part of how closeted the Irish female gay scene still is, Ireland is a small place and generally backwards when it comes to the expression of sexuality so there is still the fear of a gay female being raped which a gay male generally does not have to face from gay bashers.

Thirdly there are fetish nights in this country, yes they are a lot tamer then those in other countries but we do have them and they are not hetroexclusive.

Fourth there are female play nights and weekends away arranged in this country but they are usually tacky through like the likes of escort Ireland or exclusive to word of mouth in certain circles or restricted access web forums.

Ireland is frankly too small of a conservative country for public events like Fun 4 Females imho

shoegirl

There is a little more on the UK scene here, and a few links.

Not sure I'd quite call Fun4Females "public", they are picky about letting people in - apparently they can you to make sure you're not a guy before you're given information as to where the party is. On the other hand, the Brighton sauna is well publicised.

Not sure I'd quite describe the fetish scene in Ireland as "tackY". I've friends who are really into it, and they wouldn't be in the least bit tacky. Nobody is feminist bashing here anyway, there are just lots of assumptions being made about female sexuality and what women want that are based on conservative notions about what women want that are not universal. We forget to easily that the so-called "lesbian sex wars" were between two entirely different sets of feminist worldviews - the viewpoint that all pornography was demeaning, and a sex-positive persepective that was trying to include non-traditional groups such as sex workers who sex postive feminists felt were being marginalized further by the anti porn crusades (however well intentioned it might have been).

Nevyn

I didn't call the fetish scene tacky I referred to parties organised via escort ireland as being tacky.

Yes there is a struggle between sex postive feminists and hardcore 3rd wave feminists and then there is the issue of women wanting to have sex like men to be equal :rolleyes:.

There has to be a middle path when it comes to women owning their own sexuality and copping on that what is right for them personally may not be right for the rest of the sisterhood.

Again Ireland is too small for such events be they fetish, swing bi/hetro/homo.

kisaragi

LookingFor wrote: »

There's a much bigger difference than a pub/club and somewhere like the boilerhouse. The boilerhouse is basically a brothel where client is vendor and vice versa.

Of course, some people do use pubs/clubs purely as pick-up joints, but at least they have a broader social utility.

My problem with a place like the boilerhouse is how it reflects on any gay person and reinforces stereotypes about gay people.

The first time I heard about the boilerhouse? In school. People using it as part of derogatory mocking of other people (e.g. "i saw your Da going into the boilerhouse last night").

There is a surprisingly strong connotation there between gay people and the boilerhouse, and people are (IMO) rightly disgusted by the latter, and so it reinforces negative connotations and disgust with the former. IMO people should think about that broader impact on how gay people are viewed because of places like this before they go and support them.

'Image' aside (and gay people DO have an image problem, let's be honest), the place is facking public health hazard. I know of one person who was riddled with stis after a single visit there, one person who contracted HIV (yes, he was dumb and wasn't safe). I'd love someone to do a study of rates of infection among users of the boilerhouse. And the problem on top of that is that the gay population is small enough here...so even if a small proportion use a place like the boilerhouse, it has a disproportionate impact on the health of the wider community.

Lastly, and as I alluded in my original post, I just think a place like the boilerhouse is a mark of social retardation. If you want sex-on-tap, then how about dating and forming a relationship with someone? IMO places like the boilerhouse are representative of that not unsubstantial number of gay people who seem to be emotionally crippled and who can't form healthy relationships. Before someone screams at me to stop being so heteronormative, I'd suggest that the relationship model of stability and monogamy that has evolved, evolved for good reasons - that is, because it is much much healthier (emotionally and physically) and much more conducive to basic survival. It is a massive pity that we as gay people seem to have adopted promiscuity etc. as a mark of our culture, as something to be protected just so we're not too like our heterosexual peers. People actually get offended when you start talking out against it, and that's just ridiculous.

Sorry for a bit of delayed reply but...

Yes I was trying to say that I didn't think there was much of a difference between picking someone up in a club and meeting them in the boilerhouse. Not that they're similar places in terms of utility.

The place isn't a health hazard, if people weren't having sex there they'd be doing it somewhere else, meeting people online or crusing bars. And I presume that the boilerhouse provide condoms and lube there so if peope aren't safe there, there's nothing to suffest they would be otherwise.

Likewise I would say that if it wasn't "I saw your da going into the boilerhouse" it'd be "I saw your da going into the george/doing something else gay". Anyway, I can see your point about image, but I don't think the solution is to try and stop gay people from having casual sex. Rather to make those who condemn it realise that straight people (from my experience) do it just as much. And anyway, it's not a big deal. I wouldn't have sex with a woman myself but I don't mind if other guys do it, it seems the same to me in regards to casual sex, everyone is free to choose.

As for having a relationship so you can have as much sex as you want, relationships aren't for everyone. Some people like to sleep around and not have to be committed to anyone. There's no point in trying to force people into relationships when they don't want to be in them. As for gay people adopting promiscuity as part of their culture, well, as I've said before, the straight people I know are just as promiscouos as the gay ones.

Nevyn

I think its more that there isn't a place for straight people or women of what ever sexuality to go and have sex like the boilerhouse.

anotherlostie

I love how the women have taken over a thread about the Boilerhouse!

Bottle_of_Smoke

How in god's name does this place avoid the religious folk who protested unrelentlessly outside stringfellows?

Bottle_of_Smoke

shay_562 wrote: »

It's called Coppers, and it's heaving most nights. (Though it does, for bizarre reasons I have yet to figure out, see its fair share of female clientelle)

Why does coppers have this reputation, its no more easy to pull there than anywhere else in Dublin!

cotwold

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

How in god's name does this place avoid the religious folk who protested unrelentlessly outside stringfellows?

Yeah good question. Well i suppose on a basic level the difference is you're not paying for sex in the boilerhouse, just somewhere to have it. But then again you weren't in stringfellows. I'd imagine its something to do with the 'objectification' of women but most likely that it was a high profile club.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Why does coppers have this reputation, its no more easy to pull there than anywhere else in Dublin!

Not anymore but apparently it used to be a lot easier. Its a different animal altogether these days apparently.

Boston

I went to coppers once to gawk at the hetro, they're fantabulous.

shoegirl

cotwold wrote: »

Well i suppose on a basic level the difference is you're not paying for sex in the boilerhouse, just somewhere to have it. But then again you weren't in stringfellows. I'd imagine its something to do with the 'objectification' of women but most likely that it was a high profile club.

I think its to do with the profile of Stringfellows and its attempts to sell itself as a normal place to hold business meetings etc. I doubt somehow, a lot of talk about business goes on in the Boilerhouse. I can understand the unease about Stringfellows as I have worked in a couple of companies where work meetings after work ended up in lap dancing clubs and some of the hetero women present were both criticised by colleagues for going along (as if they picked the location, come on!) and one I know was very afraid that her fiance might find out and get upset.

Boston

cotwold wrote: »

Yeah good question. Well i suppose on a basic level the difference is you're not paying for sex in the boilerhouse, just somewhere to have it. But then again you weren't in stringfellows. I'd imagine its something to do with the 'objectification' of women but most likely that it was a high profile club.

Sorry, missed this. The local residents thought that stringfellows was lowering the tone of the area. A laughable suggestion given the area.

Nevyn

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

How in god's name does this place avoid the religious folk who protested unrelentlessly outside stringfellows?

Most of them don't know about it or how it operates.

You can't compare the lies of coppers with the boiler house, you won't see people dressed in just a towel in coppers and going off to private massage rooms together.

shoegirl

Boston wrote: »

Sorry, missed this. The local residents thought that stringfellows was lowering the tone of the area. A laughable suggestion given the area.

Ah now, not entirely fair I think. That whole area was notorious until the Legion of Mary cleaned it up through a massive campaign of "rescuing" fallen women. Isn't that what our Magdalen laundries was for? My mother remembers her uncle (who was big in the legion) had a number of old ladies who stayed in touch down through the years after he'd help them get away from pimps and out of prostitution and into half decent jobs. While its probably likely that some "fallen women" may have ended up in laundries, some were genuinely helped out.

There have been pockets of prostitution around the area over the decades but its tended to fan out in recent years. I can't blame them for trying. The risk with Stringfellows was that other similar style clubs would follow them into the same area and encourage kerbcrawling. I cannot see loads of Boilerhouses popping up in town! Its not like there is room for a lot of competition there - or is there!?

AARRRGH

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think its more that there isn't a place for straight people or women of what ever sexuality to go and have sex like the boilerhouse.

You're deluding yourself if you think a heterosexual sex club would have a significant number of female guests.

I base this comment on the fact that every sex club in the world has a problem attracting female guests. It's not just a conservative Ireland thing.

shoegirl

AARRRGH wrote: »

I base this comment on the fact that every sex club in the world has a problem attracting female guests. It's not just a conservative Ireland thing.

Thats because most of them are either a) based on prostitution or services that are arms-length away from it b) really put off female customers by the sleazy way they market themselves or c) are marketed solely towards gay men.

Any sort of "sex club" that markets itself in any way that doesn't represent traditional pseudo porn style generally tends to do a lot better than those who do.

stephen_n

LookingFor wrote: »

I'm not advocating that we ban

And I don't know of any 'straight' equivalent to the BH, though I'm open to enlightenment on that if I'm wrong.

I think you will find that has more to do with hetrosexual women's attitudes to sex. If most hetro males could go to a place like the BH and have sex with a woman they would jump at the chance. I think you will find the level of hetrosexual prostitution is much higher to compensate for the need for casual sex in the straight community.

Males gay or straight are naturally more drawn to casual sex than females, the only difference is when your talking about gay men you already have the two to tango.

This is not a reflection on the gay community just a reflection on men in general!

Boston

stephen_n wrote: »

If most hetro males could go to a place like the BH and have sex with a woman they would jump at the chance.

Complete bull. Sure its in keeping with the "lads persona" some young idiot males like to display, but I don't think "most" men would jump at the thought of going to a place like the boiler house. Most gay men don't so why would hetrosexuals be different?

stephen_n wrote: »

I think you will find the level of hetrosexual prostitution is much higher to compensate for the need for casual sex in the straight community.

Is it higher? Homosexual prostitution is very active, and I see no reason to believe its less common per capita then heterosexual prostitution.

stephen_n wrote: »

Males gay or straight are naturally more drawn to casual sex than females, the only difference is when your talking about gay men you already have the two to tango.

Nothing Natural about social taboos.

stephen_n

Boston wrote: »

Complete bull. Sure its in keeping with the "lads persona" some young idiot males like to display, but I don't think "most" men would jump at the thought of going to a place like the boiler house. Most gay men don't so why would hetrosexuals be different?



Is it higher? Homosexual prostitution is very active, and I see no reason to believe its less common per capita then heterosexual prostitution.




Nothing Natural about social taboos.

I really don't know what your basing the some young idiot male comments on or how you would catagorise young males or their intellect but I think you will find by the number of hetrosexual males ranging from late teens to mid 30's, attending the many clubs around Dublin on the pull every weekend, that you are lumping a rather large cross section of the male population into that statement. Unless you believe the romantic myth that they are out looking for "the one"?

The prostitution one is hard to discuss as there are very few figures to review except for Amsterdam where the percentages would seem to be about 10% of active prostitutes being homosexual. Which is less than the over all estimated percentages of gay males in the population so pro rata their would seem to be more. Despite biased perceptions that gay men are more promiscuous than their straight counterparts.

I actually didn't understand the relevance of your third point regarding social taboos?

shoegirl

stephen_n wrote: »

I really don't know what your basing the some young idiot male comments on or how you would catagorise young males or their intellect but I think you will find by the number of hetrosexual males ranging from late teens to mid 30's, attending the many clubs around Dublin on the pull every weekend.
.....
I actually didn't understand the relevance of your third point regarding social taboos?

Well I certainly know quite a large number of young hetero males happily engage in casual sex with lots of young ladies on a regular basis. And older ones too.

I think the social taboo point is that there is far more moralising about women who have casual sex than men. There is still a myth that there is a male sexual appetite that needs feeding and women don't need it. Oh and yes, an extension of this by the way is that if you don't feed the male desire for sex, they will resort to sexual violence (in other words, placing the blame for rape upon females who don't feed their male partners sexual appetities). Even a lot of the posts on this subject insinuate that women have no interest whatever in casual sex whereas its a normal and healthy thing for males to do.

If you don't believe me hop over to the Guardian's CIF (Comment is Free) section and look at some of the recent discussions on prostitution. There is a powerful perception that prostitution is a necessary thing to feed the uncontrollable sexual "needs" of helpless males who otherwise would be "forced" to resort to rape. Ok I am taking an extreme view, but that perception is there in numerous discussions.

stephen_n

shoegirl wrote: »

Well I certainly know quite a large number of young hetero males happily engage in casual sex with lots of young ladies on a regular basis. And older ones too.

I think the social taboo point is that there is far more moralising about women who have casual sex than men. There is still a myth that there is a male sexual appetite that needs feeding and women don't need it. Oh and yes, an extension of this by the way is that if you don't feed the male desire for sex, they will resort to sexual violence (in other words, placing the blame for rape upon females who don't feed their male partners sexual appetities). Even a lot of the posts on this subject insinuate that women have no interest whatever in casual sex whereas its a normal and healthy thing for males to do.

If you don't believe me hop over to the Guardian's CIF (Comment is Free) section and look at some of the recent discussions on prostitution. There is a powerful perception that prostitution is a necessary thing to feed the uncontrollable sexual "needs" of helpless males who otherwise would be "forced" to resort to rape. Ok I am taking an extreme view, but that perception is there in numerous discussions.

Well anyone who knows anything about rape knows it has very little to do with sex in the first place so how they could argue that link is a bit silly really. There are alot of arguments you could make for the legalisation of prostitution but that has to be the most ridiculous one ever!

From the women I have talked to and the ones I have been with I think it is safe to say if anything most women have a higher libido but where as men are in general more comfortable with casual sex i.e. less emotional attachment to it they are perceived to have a higher sex drive. Thus my original point that gay men are perceived to be more promiscuous as there is less need for emotional attachment between two men. This is part of our basic make up and is linked to the survival of the species which has very little to do with sexuality!

Boston

stephen_n wrote: »

I really don't know what your basing the some young idiot male comments on or how you would catagorise young males or their intellect but I think you will find by the number of hetrosexual males ranging from late teens to mid 30's, attending the many clubs around Dublin on the pull every weekend, that you are lumping a rather large cross section of the male population into that statement. Unless you believe the romantic myth that they are out looking for "the one"?

Frankly, thats like basing your opinion of what gay men desire solely on the activities which take place in a handful of gay bars. I don't think anything more then a minority of men go to pubs specifically to hook up, most people do so to socialise.

stephen_n

Boston wrote: »

Frankly, thats like basing your opinion of what gay men desire solely on the activities which take place in a handful of gay bars. I don't think anything more then a minority of men go to pubs specifically to hook up, most people do so to socialise.

How often do you attend straight bars and clubs? I'm basing my perception on a reality of living a lot my life outside the gay scene and having first hand experience of a lot of hetrosexual males, yes most men go out to get drunk first and foremost but since the vast majority of straight males don't like dancing why do you think they go to clubs? Take a trip down to cafe enseine this weekend and observe the guys there and see if you think it's a small minority that are there to pull girls!

Boston

stephen_n wrote: »

How often do you attend straight bars and clubs? I'm basing my perception on a reality of living a lot my life outside the gay scene and having first hand experience of a lot of hetrosexual males, yes most men go out to get drunk first and foremost but since the vast majority of straight males don't like dancing why do you think they go to clubs? Take a trip down to cafe enseine this weekend and observe the guys there and see if you think it's a small minority that are there to pull girls!

You miss the point. If the "vast" majority of males where into that business then there would be a cafe enseine or coppers or whatever on every corner. If I go to a meat market of course I'll see it. You assume I don't frequent straight bars not associate with heterosexual males.

oisindoyle

This thread has gone waaaay off topic .The question from the OP was about the Boilerhouse at 8pm on a Saturday night.It has now desended into something completely different.

Tricity Bendix

oisindoyle wrote: »

This thread has gone waaaay off topic .The question from the OP was about the Boilerhouse at 8pm on a Saturday night.It has now desended into something completely different.

And much more interesting. Whats your point?

stephen_n

Boston wrote: »

You miss the point. If the "vast" majority of males where into that business then there would be a cafe enseine or coppers or whatever on every corner. If I go to a meat market of course I'll see it. You assume I don't frequent straight bars not associate with heterosexual males.

There are bars and clubs like cafe enseine and coppers all over Dublin city centre, pretty much every bar on Harcourt street thrives on it, in fact most of the clubs apart from spirit and tripod are predominantly like that from my experience in them. I don't know what bars and clubs you go to or what the sexual orientation of the people you go with is so I can't assume anything but if you do frequent these clubs then you must walk around with your eyes closed if you can't see it.

I just find it vaguely amusing that you would moralise about the boiler house a place where people go and sometimes (I have never been so don't know) engage in consensual sex acts as if it is a poor reflection on gay culture somehow. It serves a purpose no different than any of the four lap dancing clubs based within a half mile of it but of course they are ok!