Good Games thread?

Kirby

Hard done by? He is doing well with crappy guile. Capcom gave him pretty decent guile in the new version. Sonic Doom! Less charge on doom boom's

Its hugs and kisses until people have to fight him.

Sisko

Bush80 wrote: »

:

Im only getting super on xbox for the time being anyway.

:(:(:(:(:(:(

Orim

Good games to Blag. I would have kept going despite the topsy-turvy score (19-1 to him in case your wondering, I ended on a win though) but I was getting too frustrated to continue, I wouldn't have been learning again. I hope that I have picked up a few things. Scissors pressure is such a nightmare.

A major problem for me is panicking in the corners. I've noticed against a few people (Blag, Dreddy, Chunkis) that when I get backed into the corner I fall to pieces. Guess I can't do much except for some meditation and relaxation exercises.

BanjoB

A major problem for me is panicking in the corners. I've noticed against a few people (Blag, Dreddy, Chunkis) that when I get backed into the corner I fall to pieces. Guess I can't do much except for some meditation and relaxation exercises.

I know the feeling man. Scissors kick pressure is rape against chun. Recently against more average bisons online I've been tryin ways to get out of the corner against him. If u can judge it right , cr lp, st mp xx kikoken is a great way to push him away out of roundhouse range and give u some breathing room.
They should make lk scissors kick unsafe for super!!!!:p

blag

GG's Orim, I think the more you play against Bison the easier the match gets.

The biggest piece of advice I could offer is to not walk yourself into the corners ,it's where Bison wants you and definitely where he's most effective.

Sisko

I play against so many good bison's, and have a tone of experience against him. Sadly I don't feel as comfortable against him as I should given my experience.

Probably cause most of my experience is me being so frustrated at how he can freely attack with out fear of a punish. I'm still really bad for applying the logic of a shoto to characters that are nothing like.
That logic being, you do a special move and I block or avoid it, your mine.

But Bisons all like "muahhahahahha not only can you not touch me after you block my special move, but you can't do anything but watch as I freely do yet another on you, HAHAHAHAH" etc

Focus is useless against him as his specials are two hit, and his pokes are out of the range of focus attacks.

My only hope is safe jumps and option selects.

Azza

Sisko wrote:

I play against so many good bison's, and have a tone of experience against him. Sadly I don't feel as comfortable against him as I should given my experience.

Probably cause most of my experience is me being so frustrated at how he can freely attack with out fear of a punish. I'm still really bad for applying the logic of a shoto to characters that are nothing like.
That logic being, you do a special move and I block or avoid it, your mine.

But Bisons all like "muahhahahahha not only can you not touch me after you block my special move, but you can't do anything but watch as I freely do yet another on you, HAHAHAHAH" etc

Focus is useless against him as his specials are two hit, and his pokes are out of the range of focus attacks.

Oh lord.
Cry me a river.

Kirby

I'm no bison expert and I'm sure I'll be corrected. But he's actually not as safe as you think.

His light kick scissors is safe yes. But the medium, Hard kicks and EX have a few frames in which you can hit him unless Bison gets the distancing right. Go into training and try it out from different distances. thats what I did. And sim is the slowest character in the game. So If i can get the odd punish in, a Ryu type certainly can.

Azza

Bison's only 100% safe move on block from any range is LK Scissors which is between +3 and 0 frames on block. If Bison hits with last 3 active frame of the second hit of his LK Scissors Kick he can be up to between +1 and +3 frame advantage however its no good to him as he is too far away to do a tick into another Scissor Kick.

If LK Scissors is block close here is no advantage to either player as its 0 frames. You have a 50/50 chance of interfering with his C.LK if you have a 3 frame C.LK of your own. If not any move with invinciblity will do.
Ryu can simply DP anything Bison does after blocked scissors and if he does that can possible lead up to 478 damage. (400 in Super Street Fighter 4)

If you block both hits of any Scissor Kick you will know Bison will not get any frame avantage or be at a safe distance.

LK Scissors is +3 to 0.
MK Scissors is -2 to -5.
HK Scissors is -5 to -8.
EX Scissors is -5 to -8.

The reason why his HK and EX Scissors are safe if the hit on the last active frames is not because of frame advantage but the distance they push his opponent away from him.

Chun-Li can punish any blocked Scissors Kick bar the LK version with super no matter how well Bison spaces his Scissor Kicks. Ryu can't punish if Bison perfectly space his HK and EX Scissors but if Bison is off by 1 frame Ryu can hit him with his HP Super.

As for his other moves. He doesn't have anything else much safe. Teleport has 13 frames of recovery. Both versions of Devils Reverse are at best -3 on block and depend on spacing to be safe.
Both versions of Headstomp have 16 frames of recovery if they whiff.

Skull Diver have insanely good frame advantage + 9 on block and + 10 for the EX version. However the move is insanely unsafe to use in the first place.

As for Psycho Crusher they are next to impossible to make safe but the EX version is good at full screen.

LP Psycho Crusher +2 to -8.
MP Pyscho Crusher -2 to -14.
HP Psycho Crusher -2 to -17.
Ex Psycho Crusher +6 to -16.

Kirby

Azza wrote: »

Bison's only 100% safe move on block from any range is LK Scissors which is 0 frames on block. There is no advantage to either player. You have a 50/50 chance of interfering with his c.lk if you have a 3 frame c.lk of your own.

Ryu can simply DP anything Bison does after blocked scissors and if he does that can possible lead up to 478 damage.

Not anymore!

Sisko

Azza wrote: »

Oh lord.
Cry me a river.

Oi! Stfu I was only being sympathetic to Orims post

You should be happy people find Bison a nightmare anyway

And yeah, of course retarded bison's can be punished , good bisons are very good at staying safe, head stomp is another one that's grand on block.

I'm reluctant to spam DP, maybe I should become one of those guys that spams reversals during block strings. I'm just used to 3s where if you let go of block your getting hit. I had hoped that'd return for super but I guess I should just except the engine for what it is.

Anyway I'm only bitching about my own inability to get better at the match up considering how lucky I am to have plenty experience against good Bisons. I'm not calling Bison a lame character.

Its not like he's gief or anything...



<_<




>_>

Azza

GG's Kirby, I'll get you with Seth some day!

Kirby

Na you won't. He doesn't have crouching short My struggle to punish Head stomp really gives me trouble. EX version does as much as my ultra....which I rarely get in anyway. Although that time that I double teleported and it hit was a highlight for me.:D You can also do tick throws against me easier because sim can't option select like other characters. Which makes it tricky.

Good games though.

unky chop chop

good games to the baldy fecker dalshim and kirby. its a battle to get near you..must learn to be patient.

Kirby

Aye gg's. Patience is the key there. When you jumped in over and over I was reading it and hitting you. When you varied it up and I wasn't sure....thats when you started to smash me up . To think that that SRK is even better in super SF4!

unky chop chop

once i got in close damge was done..the problem was getting there..dp in super will be virtually the same i think..they say ther buffin the light punch version thoughh

Azza

Ex.Stomp does 200 damage or 250 on counter hit. Its being nerfed slightly in Super down to 180. Still a pretty poor move overall considering how easy it is to avoid for most of the cast.

Your problem is that I'm looking for your to go your BNB yoga fire, IAT combo. You don't hit confirm with that combo so its easy to nail you with Ex.Stomp. After that I sometimes predict a fireball of just get lucky by randomly doing it.

Sim can option select tech. Everyone can.

Kirby

Option select is fairly simple in its effect. You do it, and if your opponent throws, the AI techs it for you. If he doesn't throw, it sticks out your jab. Its effective because if your opponent doesn't throw, your jab will either hit or trade with your opponent.... due to the fact that most of the cast have 3 frame jabs. Except with sim because his isnt fast enough and your "jab", in your case crouching short, will beat mine.

So I can't use it. You approach me. I option select. If you throw, it will tech grand. If you go for a tick, you will beat mine. And ill eat two more shorts followed by a scissors for lots of dmg. Therefore its useless. Which is why I have to guess or risk teleporting away or Focus attack dash away. You never see a Sabin or Iyo do it against a ryu or rog or bison because it doesnt work.

Azza

Kirby you don't understand how OS teching works. OS teching is down by delaying the tech. You will still be blocking if your opponent ticks again if you perform it correctly.

See this article.
http://www.shoryuken.com/content.php?r=326-Strategy-Corner-Understanding-The-SF4-Option-Select-Tech

I tested Sim in traning mode he can OS tech fine.

Here is video evidence of Sim using OS tech against Bison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRf-zELSLOU
at 43 seconds in and at 1.27

I know Sim was using OS tech because Bison used his frame trap of c.lk, cl.hp, c.lk xx scissors.

If Sim was not OS teching here the frame traps would not of worked.

By your logic Sim should of beat Bison because his c.jab is 4 frames on start up and c.lk is 5.

Bison has 1 frame of advantage after Sim block his c.lk, his next move is cl.hp which has 8 frames of start up. So there is 7 frame gap Sim could interupt with either c.lp or c.lk. However the Sim player is OS teching so he does not perform the tech straight away after coming out of block stun but delays a few frames, and thats the reason Bison's slow cl.hp beats Sim's OS tech.

Had Bison simply attempted to tick throw Sim in both cases Sim would of teched successfully.

Dreddybajs

Kirby you're completely off on this..os teching doesn't even produce a jab, it produces a cr. short. :pac:

Kirby

You can't know for sure what each player is pressing without input data...or asking them. So you are assuming alot there man.

And dreddy, I put jab in comma's. like "jab". Which is his case his is dinky little crouching short kick . Sim's "jab" is seven frames of startup.

I've tried it repeatedly and get stuffed every single time. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But i mean its simple maths. yours is 4 startup frames, mine is 7. What am I missing here?

Azza

I do know for sure. That frame trap is Bison's counter to OS teching. If that Sim player had not performed a delayed OS tech and instead tried to tech straight away he would of got a c.lp or c.lk out and beat Bisons slow cl.hp.

You are going it wrong. Go into training mode and set a Bison dummy to do a c.lk into throw and then 2 c.lk into throw. Delay your tech till well after Bison finishes each of his c.lk. You need to get the timing down. Its not something you can mash.

Sims frame data can be found here.
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Dhalsim_%28SFIV%29

DB+LP is 4 frame start up.
DB+LK is 5 frame start up.

Kirby

I get what you are saying but I'm confused about this part of that article.

The timing of the crouch tech should be delayed. I think of it as teching very slightly (just a few frames) after you have been thrown. If your opponent did not try a throw or a fast enough move, this will make you do c.LK, which is not bad.

Your crouching LK is 4 frames. Mine is 5 apparently by what you linked. Won't yours still beat mine? When I try it, the block doesn't work and he just sticks out his silly little foot and I get hit.

Also, look at this part of the article.

Gouken players should probably use cr. LP+LK+MK because Gouken's cr. LK is really slow.

Goukens light kick is only 1 frame slower than sims and they say its too slow to work and to use Medium punch. Perhaps this is why I keep getting hit? Like I said. Maybe Its too slow? Also the range on it shocking. You have to be right beside the character to hit.

Kirby

I had a look on some of the old threads on SRK and you are right, its possible to do. Obviously I'm not timing it right or something. Ill try again tomorrow when Im not tired. Some interesting stuff there. Apparently you can use LP+LK and Medium punch option select against rufus to stop dive kick spam and throw guessing game. Will take some practice though as apparently while Iyo gets it right, everybody else just gets hit

Azza

The reason why my c.lk doesn't beat your c.lk is because we are not doing it at the same time.

My c.lk is 3 frames on start and plus +1 on block.

If you delay your OS Tech till 4-9 frames after you recover for my first c.lk tick, if I perform another tick move like c.lk you will still be blocking because you haven't pressed anything yet. If I go for a throw you will have at a minimum a 9 frame window to tech the throw so your delayed tech will tech the throw.

If your oppponent does neither of these and backs off your c.lk will come out, c.lk being very hard to punish because its a fast move to recover.

Characters with moves with airborner properties can beat OS tech.
Such as Ryu's and Akumas Ex.Tatsu.
Cammy's Ex.Cannon Strike and Tiger Knee Cannon Strike.
Vipers Flame Kick.
Rufus Dive Kick
Chun-Li Hazanshu overhead kick.
Vega down foward + mk.

Against Rufus and Cammy's corner pressure for most characters OS tech is useless. However Cammy has an option select of crouching lk+lp and c.hp, any attempt at Cannon Spike or Dive Kick will get beaten by c.hp.

Characters who don't have moves with airborne properties can beat OS tech with frame traps like the one I showed above for Bison. Frame traps use moves with longer start up times than most character c.lks but shorter than delay + start up time of c.lk to beat OS tech.

OS teching is extremely powerful. If you can learn it you will signficantly reduce my offensive ability in our match ups. A significant portion of the damage I score comes from throws. You should be able to limit this alot by learning OS tech.

However I can also start using Bison's frame traps (which loose to a non delayed tech) and mix up between the two to keep you guessing.

Azza

GG's for todays games Sagat08 and Dolyer01.

Doctor DooM

GG's to Sagat.

Hate blanka so much. I'm getting some success rushing him the *^% down with normals but you have to completely stop the second he gets ultra, yet you can't boom pressure because of the slide and air throw is hard to land on blanka AND the SHK misses half the time, so you're trying to keep in the middle distance. Nightmare.

Also sorry if I sucked in the last few fights, my dog seems to have found himself a girlfriend and my housemate let her into the house after she started whining outside for him so I had a visitation while playing.


That is not a word of a lie.

Orim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5wfusuQKcs

Sisko

Haha damn they still make that? Remember watching the 1st few yeaaaaaaars ago.

Orim

They've made five seasons of it. They've finished now. I still haven't gotten round to watching the fifth but everything up till there is absolute gold.