Luas docklands line to open 2nd week of December

antoinolachtnai

I don't know the spec. But I doubt if it's specced to run fewer than 3 trams at the same time on that stretch. That itself is actually an awful lot of capacity.

If you need to increase the power, you would just increase the power. It's something that can be done if required.

12.5 percent of the fleet is really nothing, if it is off-peak. The full 40 trams are only ever going to be on the tracks for 4 hours a day most days, to serve the peak. Any transport solution you come up for to deal with a large event is going to have this problem.

There was no queue at all at RHK. I guess a lot of people take a taxi, drive or walk. I'd be surprised if more than one-third of concert-goers will use the Luas.

I'd say the crowd control would be paid for out of the general security bill. If luas can fill 4 or 5 extra trams off-peak they will make money on the deal.

The main issue is going to be collecting the money.

Mushy

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The main issue is going to be collecting the money.

Assume you mean for people getting LUAS after gigs? They should have a luas add-on when buying them...could that work? Know for festivals abroad, some public transport services are included in ticket price too.

antoinolachtnai

An optional add-on would be hard to administer, but if the venue or promoter wanted to hire 5 luas trams for 5 or 6 hours, I'd be surprised if the RPA wouldn't come up with a deal.

I suppose (I'm guessing from my knowledge of other parts of the transport sector) that this would come to less than ten grand for the evening excluding security, which seems like good value, if it does anything to reduce road congestion and make crowd control a bit easier.

BrianD

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don't know the spec. But I doubt if it's specced to run fewer than 3 trams at the same time on that stretch. That itself is actually an awful lot of capacity.

If you need to increase the power, you would just increase the power. It's something that can be done if required.

Apparently it isn't as simple as that. It requires an upgrade.

An optional add-on would be hard to administer, but if the venue or promoter wanted to hire 5 luas trams for 5 or 6 hours, I'd be surprised if the RPA wouldn't come up with a deal.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I suppose (I'm guessing from my knowledge of other parts of the transport sector) that this would come to less than ten grand for the evening excluding security, which seems like good value, if it does anything to reduce road congestion and make crowd control a bit easier.

You honestly think that any promoter would be paying €10K to the LUAS per gig? not a chance in hell! They'll only do it if made to do it.

for the record I had a look at the point stop this lumchtime. The configuration is that 2 trams can load from one side only (same as a standard stop) and the third tram can load from both sides. There's three physical platforms with one platform being shared.

antoinolachtnai

Exactly, you do an upgrade. It doesn't involve taking the road up or disrupting services. It wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't require that much disruption. And you could run a lot of trams without an upgrade!

10k is really not that much money in the context of a security and traffic bill for a concert with a total bill of a couple of million. If it helps matters, I'd say it might be done.

Loading from the two sides isn't what I would think you would usually use a twin-platform for. You would use it to unload in one direction and load from the other. If you load from both sides, you will just create collisions on board the tram. For a situation like a concert, loading from one side should be fine. There is no real benefit to a double platform.

Be optimistic! It just might work!

Maldini2706

People are making a few false assumptions here, one is that 14,000 people are going to use the LUAS. There are currently 0 people using it and the area clears fairly quickly after gigs. We are never going to get to a situation where everyone going to the o2 uses the LUAS, especially when the new car park opens. It's also worth noting that a large proportion of the gigs only have a 9,000 capacity.

I can't see the LUAS having anything but a positive effect in the area.

BrianD

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

10k is really not that much money in the context of a security and traffic bill for a concert with a total bill of a couple of million. If it helps matters, I'd say it might be done.

Zero chance of any promoter handing out €10K per gig so people can use a tram. They'll argue they are walkinganyway.

Loading from the two sides isn't what I would think you would usually use a twin-platform for. You would use it to unload in one direction and load from the other. If you load from both sides, you will just create collisions on board the tram. For a situation like a concert, loading from one side should be fine. There is no real benefit to a double platform.

Be optimistic! It just might work!

I was describing the station as is. Oddly. they have a concrete wall with buffer stops at the end of the line proper. It's a odd obstruction to have there. I would have thought that the more circulation space the better.

Maldini2706 wrote:

People are making a few false assumptions here, one is that 14,000 people are going to use the LUAS. There are currently 0 people using it and the area clears fairly quickly after gigs. We are never going to get to a situation where everyone going to the o2 uses the LUAS, especially when the new car park opens. It's also worth noting that a large proportion of the gigs only have a 9,000 capacity.

Very true, however there are a large number of people who walk as far as the city centre who would probably use the LUAS to connect with rail or other bus services. Plus using the P&R at the Red Cow is now an option for people travelling from outside of Dublin So it is hard to know exactly how many people will use it.

antoinolachtnai

It's odd the way the crowd control stuff works sometimes. It might be better to corral people away from the back of the trams.

I think a lot of people will use it and it will need the use. It looks like it is really quite a bit overspecced for day-to-day needs of the North Docklands for the next few years.

markpb

BrianD wrote: »

Zero chance of any promoter handing out €10K per gig so people can use a tram. They'll argue they are walkinganyway.

That's not necessarily true. It's common in other cities for concert promoters to pay for public transport around big events. The tube runs later in London on NYE and is partly funded by concert venues. The metro ran late after the U2 concert in LA and was partly funded by the Rosebowl and U2's promoters. At a push, it could become part of the planning requirements for large concerts.

€10,000 is small change for concert promoters at the end of the day. They happily paid €36,000 in noise pollution fines after the U2 concert in Croke Park.

BrianD

markpb wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. It's common in other cities for concert promoters to pay for public transport around big events. The tube runs later in London on NYE and is partly funded by concert venues. The metro ran late after the U2 concert in LA and was partly funded by the Rosebowl and U2's promoters. At a push, it could become part of the planning requirements for large concerts.

€10,000 is small change for concert promoters at the end of the day. They happily paid €36,000 in noise pollution fines after the U2 concert in Croke Park.

I would guess that the band would have been billed for that. €36K is small to pay for almost 240,000 tickets. €10k on a 9-14K gig is a lot. If you had a business serving 9,000 people then you wouldn't accept a charge like that be foisted upon you. The other problem is that the precedent is that gigs have already operated without the Luas so it can hardly be brought in at this stage.

Was there a levy on developers in the area like on the green line extension?

antoinolachtnai

You would, if it could reduce your security bill by 130 hours by getting people out of there quicker.

L1011

BrianD wrote: »

I would guess that the band would have been billed for that. €36K is small to pay for almost 240,000 tickets. €10k on a 9-14K gig is a lot. If you had a business serving 9,000 people then you wouldn't accept a charge like that be foisted upon you. The other problem is that the precedent is that gigs have already operated without the Luas so it can hardly be brought in at this stage.

Was there a levy on developers in the area like on the green line extension?

Its about the same as their public liability insurance...

antoinolachtnai

10k would be for 5 trams, and that would be quite a generous to pay (5 hours x 400 euros per hour x 5 trams). You'd possibly get it for a bit cheaper than that, depending.

BrianD

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You would, if it could reduce your security bill by 130 hours by getting people out of there quicker.

Once their out the door, they're off the premises and moving away from the venue. The LUAS actually means that a proportion of the audience stays close to the premises until the are aboard trams.

MYOB wrote:

Its about the same as their public liability insurance...

I don't get your point. It's a cost over and above everything else.

Maldini2706

loyatemu wrote: »

Donabate would be the obvious place to connect them - Metro North ends about 2km from the rail line there.

Dart users would have to go all the way out to Donabate and then back in to access the airport though. Howth Junction could become a transport hub on the northside with access to Metro West, Dart and maybe even Metro North

Victor wrote: »

You mean the way they built two separate, unconnected tram systems in Barcelona?

The tram services in Barcelona (and the buses) act as a supplementary service to the Metro. The trams only really fill gaps in the Metro service. Barcelona's system is the best I've seen.

BrianD wrote: »

Take the luas anyway! Got off in Connolly and follow the tracks. 10-15min walk max and you're at the front door of the O2!

Most shows finish at 10:30-10:45 so you'll have loads of time to walk back to Connolly.

It will be interesting how they will handle crowds getting onto trams after the concerts. It will be chaotic with 10-14000 spilling out. Not all will use the Luas but I'd imagine a lot will - even if only to CC.

Yeah, it could be an issue, and probably will initially when the novelty leads to higher than average numbers using it, but when the dust settles it should be fine. As others metioned the gigs in Kilmainham caused no hassle and they couldn't even stack trams there.

Victor

Maldini2706 wrote: »

Dart users would have to go all the way out to Donabate and then back in to access the airport though. Howth Junction could become a transport hub on the northside with access to Metro West, Dart and maybe even Metro North

Most DART users could change at Drumcondra or indeed SSG or OCB.

dowlingm

Lot of emphasis on trams when the main problem is more likely to be getting drivers to work overtime.

Not a direct comparison but for major events there is an option - include the price of transport in the event ticket. If you have the fare "upfront" you know how much service to plan and that it's funded. Vancouver Olympics is doing something along these lines.

seamus

See Here.

One question nobody seems to be able to answer though - will the Luas pull into Connolly before heading onto the point, or will it avoid Connolly altogether?

It would be crazy to pull into Connolly, as it's only a short trip down to the Point.

Maldini2706

There's a thread on this already here: http://santa.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055725881 all questions are answered within

seamus

d'oh thanks. Mod merge?

Victor

seamus wrote: »

d'oh thanks. Mod merge?

Banned.

bg07

seamus wrote: »

See Here.

One question nobody seems to be able to answer though - will the Luas pull into Connolly before heading onto the point, or will it avoid Connolly altogether?

It would be crazy to pull into Connolly, as it's only a short trip down to the Point.

See here

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20Line%20C1/C1%20Documents/Luas%20After%20Luas%20Docklands%20Zone%20Opening_V2_CM_111109.pdf

If you look at the times and do a small bit of sums, it says that

at peak times (7:00am to 10:00am) and (4:00pm to 7:00pm)
1/3 of trams terminate at connolly
2/3 of trams bypass connolly and go on to the point

off peak (5:30am to 7:00am) and (10:00am to 4:00pm) and after 7:00pm
1/2 of trams serve connolly and the point
1/2 of trams bypass connolly and serve the point

Victor

http://www.rpa.ie/en/news/Pages/RPAChiefExecutiveconfirmsopeningofLuasDocklandstoOireachtasJointCommittee.aspx

RPA Chief Executive confirms opening of Luas Docklands to Oireachtas Joint Committee

On 18th November 2009, Frank Allen, Chief Executive of RPA, confirmed to the Joint Oireachtas Transport Committee that the extension of the Luas Red Line from Busáras to The Point will open on Tuesday 8th December 2009. Services open to the public will start at 3pm on Tuesday 8th December and regular passenger services will start on Wednesday 9th December.

Click here to view or download RPA Chief Executives Opening Statement to Joint Oireachtas Transport Committee

Victor

http://www.luas.ie/page.php?name=Luas_to_The_Point_opening_3pm_Tues_8th_Dec_2009

LUAS TO THE POINT OPENING 3PM TUES 8TH DEC 2009

The extension of the Luas Red Line from Busáras to The Point will open to the public from circa 3pm on Tuesday 8th December. Normal passenger services will start on Wednesday 9th December from 5.30am.
We would like to invite you to come and see the new Luas line to The Point. Hop on and off for free at George’s Dock, Mayor Square – NCI, Spencer Dock and The Point after 3pm on Tuesday 8th December. Enjoy the atmosphere with carol singers, a gospel choir, Santa's Groto,a pipe band, a sneak preview of the Christmas market, face painters, stilt walkers and much, much more.


Click here to read or download details of the new Operating Hours, Service Frequency and Fares

Click here to read more about the Red Line extension, Luas Docklands (Busáras to The Point) (Line C1)

trellheim

Was cycling down there late last night about 2200 - the trams are doing driver training up and down to the Point, and the hoardings at Connolly are all removed. Well worth a walk at the weekend

loyatemu

I walked the line down to the Point during the week - 2 main observations: It really is a very short distance; and the area beyond Spencer Dock is a desolate wasteland

BrianD

It would be fair to say that there is nothing between Spencer Dock and The Point (all Nama land). There are apartments and businesses around the O2 venue. It's also worth noting that there are lot of people living north of the line in the east wall area.

In the long term, one hopes that devleopment east of Spencer Dock will continue but proposed bridges mean that the south docklands is within an easy walk of the tram line.

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260043827.html

Luas Red Line extension to open on Tuesday
TIM O'BRIEN

THE LUAS extension from Bus Áras to the Point is to open on Tuesday and will face its first big challenge within hours, the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said yesterday.

According to the RPA, passengers will be offered free travel on the entire Red Line from 3pm on Tuesday immediately after the official opening, until 12.30am, when the line closes. The offer coincides with a potential audience of up to 13,000 people at the Lily Allen concert in the 02.

As he gave pre-school children from the Giraffe and Early Learning centres in the IFSC a special preview of the new extension yesterday, RPA light rail project director Michael Sheedy said the three- bay Luas terminal at the Point would be able to move 2,500 people from the O2 in the first 20 minutes after the concert.

“You will have some people taking their cars anyway and some who will start walking rather than wait, so we are not really expecting a problem,” Mr Sheedy said. Depending on demand, trams could be available every 6½ minutes.

The new extension encompasses four new stops – at George’s Dock, Mayor Square, Spencer Dock and the Point. The route bypasses the current terminus at the Luas concourse at Connolly Station. The RPA says the distances to the new stop represent a walk of only one or two minutes.

From Tuesday, just one in three trams will deviate between Bus Áras and George’s Dock to serve the concourse at the station.

According to the RPA’s Tom Manning, one of the main benefits of the Luas extension will be in breathing life into the IFSC at night-time, bringing people into the area for concerts and giving people a reason to remain as late as the last tram at 12.30am.

The route will pass the Harbourmaster bar and restaurant and will serve many of the corporate offices in the IFSC, as well as the National College of Ireland and new hotels, restaurants and wine bars on the north quays. It will also serve the 02, the soon to be completed concert hall and the Point Village.

“It brings the tram into a whole new area of Dublin; it looks more like Boston,” said Mr Manning as he pointed out local landmarks including “the Anglo Irish icon”, an unfinished office block near the Point. Journey times from Tallaght to the Point will be 56 minutes and services will be every 6½ minutes at peak times.

Public consultation for the extension was launched in January 2001 and construction began in June 2007.

Tulsi Oza (left) waits patiently with Sophia Jalobi, Isobelle Walls, Tara Murray, Samuel Tora Guerrero, William Donovan, Louise Owen and Ines Lopez, all from the Giraffe Childcare Centre at the IFSC, for the Luas tram during a preview of the extended line running from Bus Aras to the Point.
Photograph: Brenda Fitzsimons

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/1204/1224260043827_1.jpg

Judgement Day

I feel sure that the service will have to be altered fairly swiftly to 2 out of every 3 trams to Connolly rather than the Docklands.

antoinolachtnai

You could do that, but all you would really save would be a small amount of electricity and the benefit of laying off 5-10 percent of your drivers.

The reason is that

- the extra trams to cover the extra distance have already been purchased, and you might as well run them.

- you cannot use these extra trams to increase frequency on other parts of the route, because there is a limit to the number of trains per hour you can put on the red line (because of traffic)

- if you don't maintain a certain level of frequency, you just won't build ridership.

I think the key here is really to drive ridership, not cut cost. You can fiddle with the routes, fares and schedules to maximise the potential of the Docklands railway station.

- Include a central zone trip with every rail trip into the city centre. Divert some peak-time trains towards Docklands from Connolly,

- divert some trains from Heuston to Connolly, and

- arrange some decent transit between Docklands station and the south city via the Macken St bridge