Funerals

Dades

talkingdog wrote: »

I cannot believe that you or other so called atheists on this forum can tolerate any other outcome.

Yeah - you call yourself atheists and all you do is fall under the definition of the term atheist!

Shame on you!

Turtwig

talkingdog wrote: »

There is no such thing as a hard core atheist.

I do not care what others think. Religion is complete nonsense. I will have no part of it and I will vocalise that to all the deluded brainwashed people I encounter.

I want religion removed from existence because it is a cancer.

I cannot believe that you or other so called atheists on this forum can tolerate any other outcome.

I really wish you weren't atheist.:(

Happily atheists come in a wide variety all we do is reject the idea of theism .

talkingdog

Malty_T wrote: »

I really wish you weren't atheist.:(

Why

Malty_T wrote: »

Happily atheists come in a wide variety all we do is reject the idea of theism .

We should be doing a lot more.

destroyer

talkingdog wrote: »

There is no such thing as a hard core atheist.

I do not care what others think. Religion is complete nonsense. I will have no part of it and I will vocalise that to all the deluded brainwashed people I encounter.

I want religion removed from existence because it is a cancer.

I cannot believe that you or other so called atheists on this forum can tolerate any other outcome.

irony or wha?

Turtwig

talkingdog wrote: »

Why



We should be doing a lot more.

Atheists don't believe in God(s) nothing more; there is no ideology.

destroyer

Malty_T wrote: »

Atheists don't believe in God(s) nothing more; there is no ideology.

That rules out talkingdog as an atheist so.

Turtwig

destroyer wrote: »

That rules out talkingdog as an atheist so.

Well s/he still falls under atheist for not believing.:(

However, his ideologies fall elsewhere.

drkpower

talkingdog wrote: »

I do not care what others think.

Yes, clearly; not even what the 'friends' who invite you to their wedding might be thinking.

May I suggest that you simply dont turn up to the weddings of friends of yours who choose a wedding in a church rather than standing outside the church while the ceremony is on? Im just guessing but I suspect they would prefer if you just waited for them at the hotel.

Btw, do you just stand outside quietly or do you hold signs saying "Down with this sort of thing" and "Careful Now"?

Turtwig

drkpower wrote: »

Yes, clearly; not even what the 'friends' who invite you to their wedding might be thinking.

May I suggest that you simply dont turn up to the weddings of friends of yours who choose a wedding in a church rather than standing outside the church while the ceremony is on? Im just guessing but I suspect they would prefer if you just waited for them at the hotel.

Btw, do you just stand outside quietly or do you hold signs saying "Down with this sort of thing" and "Careful Now"?

Em,

Drk he's been given a temporary vacation, so you're gonna have to wait a while.:p

Handsome Bob

The only issue I have with funerals is that it needlessly puts a family under the spotlight for one, even two days if there is a removal. I don't know about anyone else but I find the effort of trying to keep it together for such a long period of time very emotionally draining.

Galvasean

LZ5by5 wrote: »

The only issue I have with funerals is that it needlessly puts a family under the spotlight for one, even two days if there is a removal. I don't know about anyone else but I find the effort of trying to keep it together for such a long period of time very emotionally draining.

I would have to agree. For example, recently my gran died on a Friday, removal was on the Saturday and we had to wait until Monday for the burial as on Sunday the Church was 'to busy'.
4 days is an awful long time to put a family, as you say, 'under the spotlight' on such an issue.

komodosp

Not kneel or stand at someone's wedding or funeral? Do you mean at the different stages of the mass where you have to kneel or stand up?

I don't understand this! It's not a lot of work just to do it rather than sit there like a sour-puss... unless you suffer from some form of knee injury or something then what's wrong with it?

Atheists aren't bound by rules or beliefs or whatever, which means nothing (to do with religion) matters! We don't have to worry that the god of non-existence will be offended, which means we can stand, sit, kneel, take a wafer off the man at the front and play along with any other stuff and justifiably not have any moral qualms about it at all!

Meemars

Apologies if this is way off topic.
I tend to agree with the majority of posters here, the cult-like behaviour in church is eerie and I find it upsetting. I don't believe in Christianity, or particularly catholicism, even though I was born and raised in a catholic family and received all the usual sacraments, including marriage.
I have read recently about how you can now "Opt Out" of the catholic church and am seriously considering it. The only thing holding me back is thoughts of the people left behind after my death. I would like to find out about non-religious options for burial, that way I could plan for the inevitable, and make my wishes known in advance, so as not to cause offence or hurt. Does anybody here have any info/advice or thoughts on this?

Ciaran500

komodosp wrote: »

I don't understand this! It's not a lot of work just to do it rather than sit there like a sour-puss... unless you suffer from some form of knee injury or something then what's wrong with it?

Atheists aren't bound by rules or beliefs or whatever, which means nothing (to do with religion) matters! We don't have to worry that the god of non-existence will be offended, which means we can stand, sit, kneel, take a wafer off the man at the front and play along with any other stuff and justifiably not have any moral qualms about it at all!

You seem to be answering your own question

Antbert

komodosp wrote: »

Atheists aren't bound by rules or beliefs or whatever, which means nothing (to do with religion) matters! We don't have to worry that the god of non-existence will be offended, which means we can stand, sit, kneel, take a wafer off the man at the front and play along with any other stuff and justifiably not have any moral qualms about it at all!

?!

I'm not sitting still to honour 'Atheism'. I'm just not humouring nonsense.

Handsome Bob

komodosp wrote: »

I don't understand this! It's not a lot of work just to do it rather than sit there like a sour-puss... unless you suffer from some form of knee injury or something then what's wrong with it?

There's definitely a sense of preciousness about it. I mean if everyone is kneeling and you stay sitting, or everyone stands up while you remain sitting, it just seems like you are trying to make a point at an inappropiate moment. I mean if you are young, fit and healthy people will know there's nothing wrong with you, stopping you from kneeling at a funeral. It just comes across as disrespectful towards the people around you IMO. Personally I just go along with it, even the chanting, old habits die hard. :pac:

robindch

LZ5by5 wrote: »

if you are young, fit and healthy people will know there's nothing wrong with you, stopping you from kneeling at a funeral. It just comes across as disrespectful towards the people around you IMO.

It's only seems disrespectful because that's what it's been designed to make you feel.

Personally, I stand up when everybody else stands up, sit down when everybody else does, and stay sitting when everybody else kneels down. It's not ostentatiously different and since one's following the crowd at least partially, it's difficult for oversensitive types to work themselves up into a credible lather.

Antbert

Surely at a funeral families have more important things to be upset about that someone not kneeling at the right time? If not they have some seriously screwed up priorities.

Handsome Bob

It's inevitable someone will see it and take offence, as well as spreading your "disrespect" to other people like wildfire.

Antbert

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It's inevitable someone will see it and take offence, as well as spreading your "disrespect" to other people like wildfire.

Then I go back to my original point. If someone at a funeral is more upset by my not honouring their religious belief than the fact that someone they cared about is dead, I have no interest in NOT offending them.

drkpower

Antbert wrote: »

Then I go back to my original point. If someone at a funeral is more upset by my not honouring their religious belief than the fact that someone they cared about is dead, I have no interest in NOT offending them.

Does that double negative mean that you do have an interest in offending them?

In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased. Not really the place for offending people, is it?

ShooterSF

drkpower wrote: »

Does that double negative mean that you do have an interest in offending them?

In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased. Not really the place for offending people, is it?

I think he means he doesn't care if he "offends" some nosy parker whose more interested in seeing what everyone else is doing and then goes around whispering it to others to offend them too at inappropriate times rather than looking after themselves and understanding that the person they are staring at (tutting) might be too upset to give a **** about playing to their religion.

I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

liamw

drkpower wrote: »

Does that double negative mean that you do have an interest in offending them?

That's not a double negative.

Mike 1972

Dave! wrote: »

I found it a bit bizarre the way everyone in the church was just chanting these things in unison. Things like the Nicene Creed, where they just explicitly state the things that they believe in

The really bizzare thing is that most of them havent a clue what theyre actually saying. Theyre just chanting it out of lifelong habit on virtual autopilot without ever having given much serious thought to it

patmartino

drkpower wrote: »

Does that double negative mean that you do have an interest in offending them?

In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased. Not really the place for offending people, is it?

B0LL0X

That is offensive. I will go to funerals for people I was close to. It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death. I will stay seated for the whole mass. I have proddy friends and thats what they do when they go to a RC mass.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The really bizzare thing is that most of them havent a clue what theyre actually saying. Theyre just chanting it out of lifelong habit on virtual autopilot without ever having given much serious thought to it

This is excellent.

I am 38 years old. I was brainwashed as a child in the Ireland of the mid 70's (a great time for sadistic priests, nuns, and teachers). All of the words are still in my head.

drkpower

patmartino wrote: »

B0LL0X

That is offensive. I will go to funerals for people I was close to. It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death. I will stay seated for the whole mass. I have proddy friends and thats what they do when they go to a RC mass.

Settle down - I was actually asking someone else a question..... But thanks for your input.

patmartino

drkpower wrote: »

In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased.

This is a statement.

drkpower

patmartino wrote: »

This is a statement.

Did you miss the bit in bold?:

"In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased."

It was contingent on his affirmation of my question; if he answered my question in the negative, the second part doesnt apply. It really is quite straightforward.

Stop trying to get yourslef into a lather.

Zillah

patmartino wrote: »

I will stay seated for the whole mass. I have proddy friends and thats what they do when they go to a RC mass.

That's obnoxiously petty in my opinion. As an atheist, a few minutes of sitting, kneeling and standing should mean nothing more than a few minutes of your life to you. Especially if you're there to play along in the comforting death ritual that the friends and family desire.

patmartino

Zillah wrote: »

That's obnoxiously petty in my opinion. As an atheist, a few minutes of sitting, kneeling and standing should mean nothing more than a few minutes of your life to you. Especially if you're there to play along in the comforting death ritual that the friends and family desire.

I disagree. It would be interesting to see how many other atheists feel about it. I got the impression from reading your previous posts that you detest religion, yet you are happy to participate in religious rituals.

Zillah

patmartino wrote: »

I disagree. It would be interesting to see how many other atheists feel about it. I got the impression from reading your previous posts that you detest religion, yet you are happy to participate in religious rituals.

Go and take part or choose to shun it. It is extremely immature to go just so you can make a show of not taking part. You've already gone to this meaningless building to listen to meaningless chanting, all because you're there to show respect for the friends and family, why the hell would you balk at doing some meaningless kneeling and standing too?

patmartino

Zillah wrote: »

Go and take part or choose to shun it. It is extremely immature to go just so you can make a show of not taking part.

I have already pointed out that protestants do the same in a RC mass. What is your problem? To say that it is immature is ridiculous. It is nothing about the show. You and I know that the bible might as well be the LOTR, and as a consequence religion is a delusion.

drkpower

patmartino wrote: »

I have already pointed out that protestants do the same in a RC mass. What is your problem? To say that it is immature is ridiculous. It is nothing about the show. You and I know that the bible might as well be the LOTR, and as a consequence religion is a delusion.

As Zillah said, if you have such a problem with it, why go into the Church in the first place? Surely that is equally engaging with this delusional ritual.

patmartino

drkpower wrote: »

As Zillah said, if you have such a problem with it, why go into the Church in the first place? Surely that is equally engaging with this delusional ritual.

To re-iterate

patmartino wrote: »

B0LL0X

I will go to funerals for people I was close to. It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death.

drkpower

patmartino wrote: »

I will go to funerals for people I was close to. It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death.

So you will participate in the delusional ritual to the point of going into the church, but stop participating in the delusional ritual when it comes to standing up and down.

Wonderfully consistent.

time42play

Zillah wrote: »

That's obnoxiously petty in my opinion. As an atheist, a few minutes of sitting, kneeling and standing should mean nothing more than a few minutes of your life to you. Especially if you're there to play along in the comforting death ritual that the friends and family desire.

I stay seated and quiet in the back of the church. At a funeral some years ago -with my parents- I went to kneel and my mum slapped my hand and pointed to the seat. As she's quite seriously Catholic that gave me a great laugh!!

As long as I stay respectfully quiet I don't see why I should be forced to participate in all the bobbing up and down. (I actually DO have a bad knee, anyway!)

patmartino

drkpower wrote: »

So you will participate in the delusional ritual to the point of going into the church, but stop participating in the delusional ritual when it comes to standing up and down.

Wonderfully consistent.

So if a friend dies you are telling me I cannot go to the funeral.

It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death.

drkpower

patmartino wrote: »

So if a friend dies you are telling me I cannot go to the funeral.

It is not my fault that a delusional religion has cornered the market in this country for death.

Do what you want.

But dont deride those who go one step further and stand up and down while participating in the delusion (to a slightly lesser extent) yourself. People in glass houses and all that.

Dades

patmartino wrote: »

So if a friend dies you are telling me I cannot go to the funeral.

You completely missed the point there.

Tim_Murphy

patmartino wrote: »

I have already pointed out that protestants do the same in a RC mass. What is your problem?

Well if the protestants do it... :rolleyes:

To say that it is immature is ridiculous.

It is immature. If somebody goes to a church service then they should have the good manners to go along with the rituals of that service. Religion being a delusion or not is neither here nor there IMO.

Kooli

ShooterSF wrote: »

I think he means he doesn't care if he "offends" some nosy parker whose more interested in seeing what everyone else is doing and then goes around whispering it to others to offend them too at inappropriate times rather than looking after themselves and understanding that the person they are staring at (tutting) might be too upset to give a **** about playing to their religion.

I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

I think people can be offended without being that type of person. It doesn't have to be noseyness or gossip. It could be someone who is genuinely grieving and upset who looks across, sighs and thinks "For f**ks sake, do they really need to choose today to make their point about religion?"

And by the way I am a hard-nosed atheist. But I still see the fact that the feelings of believers at the funeral of someone they care about take precedence over my desire to publicly set myself apart from a religion I don't believe in.

Antbert

drkpower wrote: »

Does that double negative mean that you do have an interest in offending them?

In which case, you probably shouldn't be going to the funeral, particularly if those people are close relatives of the deceased. Not really the place for offending people, is it?

No, I'm just not interested in making a massive effort to keep them UNoffended. I don't want to actively offend anybody, but if they get more upset about my sitting quietly than they actually are about their dead friend or family member then I haven't much interest in them.

ShooterSF wrote: »

I think he means he doesn't care if he "offends" some nosy parker whose more interested in seeing what everyone else is doing and then goes around whispering it to others to offend them too at inappropriate times rather than looking after themselves and understanding that the person they are staring at (tutting) might be too upset to give a **** about playing to their religion.

I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

Not very relevant but it's 'she'...

Otherwise, yes.

And it really isn't fair to say that we're making a stand by being there. Clearly if I'm at a funeral, someone I care about is dead. It isn't my fault that THE method of honouring their death is a religious funeral. If I was actually making a stand, I wouldn't go to the funeral would I?

Antbert

Kooli wrote: »

I think people can be offended without being that type of person. It doesn't have to be noseyness or gossip. It could be someone who is genuinely grieving and upset who looks across, sighs and thinks "For f**ks sake, do they really need to choose today to make their point about religion?"

It's NOT MAKING A POINT. It's just not bothering to participate. It isn't like i'm ****ing picketting outside is it?

drkpower

Antbert wrote: »

No, I'm just not interested in making a massive effort to keep them UNoffended. I don't want to actively offend anybody, but if they get more upset about my sitting quietly than they actually are about their dead friend or family member then I haven't much interest in them.

But if you knew they would be upset about you not standing etc...., would you still just sit there? Ultimatley standing up and down isnt much skin offf your nose (similar to entering the church in the first place), so isnt it worth it so as not to upset someone who has just lost a loved one? Seems like a pretty small price to pay.

Antbert

drkpower wrote: »

But if you knew they would be upset about you not standing etc...., would you still just sit there? Ultimatley standing up and down isnt much skin offf your nose (similar to entering the church in the first place), so isnt it worth it so as not to upset someone who has just lost a loved one? Seems like a pretty small price to pay.

Why would they be upset?

Kooli

Antbert wrote: »

It's NOT MAKING A POINT. It's just not bothering to participate. It isn't like i'm ****ing picketting outside is it?

Of course it's making a point! It's not actually a 'bother' to stand and sit and kneel. You are making it clear to everyone around you that you are not partaking in this religious event.

Why not just join in? You are still not actually partaking in a personal way (you are just kneeling, sitting etc. which to an atheist means nothing) but you are just not making that visible to others.

I agree that for the most part, no one cares, but I disagree that if someone DOES care that it means they are more upset about atheists than their dead relative, and are therefore some idiot you don't need to worry about upsetting. That's just cr*p! If someone was at a funeral, and upset, and someone's mobile beside them rang, and they were really annoyed about it, does that mean they're an idiot who cares more about phones ringing in church than they care about their dead relative? No, it doesn't. I just want people to respect the service.

It just reminds me of the people who will talk through a minute's silence because it is not something they believe in.

Your belief that the people who might be offended by your declining to participate are somehow small-minded or idiotic means that you won't change your ways. Fair enough. But if there was another way of looking at it, and these people did see it as you making a point at a really inappropriate time - would you change your ways then?

drkpower

Antbert wrote: »

Why would they be upset?

People can be unpredictable in the wake of losing a loved one; and they may see it as a sign of disrespect.

Mike 1972

TBH I reckon people on both sides of this debate are going a bit OTT on this one.

For an Atheist/Agnostic going to a funeral/wedding of a friends/relation at the latters place of worship is surely not much different from a person one particular religion going to a place of worship of another religion for the same reason. Only the most hardline fundamentalist would have that much of an issue with it. There are more appropriate times/places for that sort of thing.

On the other hand if an atheist/agnostic/person of another religion doesnt want to go through with the whole standing/sitting/kneeling thing or some other aspect of the service (e,g recieving communion, joining in hymms etc) then as long as nobody is actually making a big scene out of it what is the big deal really ?

ShooterSF

Mike 1972 wrote: »

TBH I reckon people on both sides of this debate are going a bit OTT on this one.

For an Atheist/Agnostic going to a funeral/wedding of a friends/relation at the latters place of worship is surely not much different from a person one particular religion going to a place of worship of another religion for the same reason. Only the most hardline fundamentalist would have that much of an issue with it. There are more appropriate times/places for that sort of thing.

On the other hand if an atheist/agnostic/person of another religion doesnt want to go through with the whole standing/sitting/kneeling thing or some other aspect of the service (e,g recieving communion, joining in hymms etc) then as long as nobody is actually making a big scene out of it what is the big deal really ?

Exactly.

I had a funeral not too long ago for a very close relative and was upset. There was no chance I was going to kneel/stand/ pray etc. to appease "the crowd". To be honest it would only make me feel worse. I was there to say my goodbyes and spend some time thinking of the person. And a big middle finger fo anyone I offended with my grieving process.

Handsome Bob

ShooterSF wrote: »

Exactly.

I had a funeral not too long ago for a very close relative and was upset. There was no chance I was going to kneel/stand/ pray etc. to appease "the crowd". To be honest it would only make me feel worse. I was there to say my goodbyes and spend some time thinking of the person. And a big middle finger fo anyone I offended with my grieving process.

That's the whole point really, you're thinking about offending these people. It just comes across as self importance tbh.