Unions on Frontline..

meglome

Diarmuid wrote: »

it's already there. I watched it a few hours ago. google "rte frontline" will take you straight there

Anyone else having problems getting all the clips to play? Overloaded maybe?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes wasnt there earlier today it seems

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059155

This is working.

ei.sdraob

to sum it up

unions want to:

* continue borrowing like crazy
* not cut welfare of PS
* increase income taxes
* double capital gains tax :eek:
* introduce property tax

:rolleyes: what parallel universe do they live in?

ei.sdraob

incredible the trade union head poncho is truly a moron for the lack of a better word

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1059155
14 and half mins in

-Pat = "this is basic sums Jack, this is not complicated! if you were to reduce public pay bill it either has to come out of peoples overtime, peoples allowances, peoples basic pay or some people have got to leave"

-Jack = "Well, you can achieve reductions, on what scale we don't know yet, in the actual pay bill, without cutting peoples pay"

:eek: :rolleyes:

-Pat = "pardon me for being flabbergasted by this statement!"

gandalf

Really all that can be said about the 10 point plan is this......

Pride Fighter

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

irish_bob

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

excellent post , leadership at political level has been as bad and worse than at union level but as bad as jack o connor is , the man is not a coward , our taoiseach on the other hand is so utterly spineless , i really dont know how he is able to carry around that keg under his jumper

Darragh29

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

+1, a truly shocking performance.

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

"Well, you can achieve reductions, on what scale we don't know yet, in the actual pay bill, without cutting peoples pay"

this is correct insofar as core pay of public servants is only a proportion (albeit a large one) of the public pay bill

there are actions that can result in a reduction in the Public pay bill without cutting core pay, for example there are many allowances etc which could be cut and indeed numbers are being reduced which would also reduce the bill

however if this is an accurate quote

"We can make cuts to the pay bill without touching pay, allowances, overtime or numbers,"

it makes no sense

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal.

this is a serious issue alright, the social partners (not just unions btw) were given far too much influence by getting a seat at the table from Bertie, the union leaders are now attempting to keep that influence and power in a changed world by showing their members they can "take action"

however, they are, imo, misrepresenting what their members are actually about. I think a lot of PS would be more open to cuts if other certain areas were playing ball (I think the banks particularly are causing consternation by awarding pay rises to staff and bonuses to already highly paid executives all on the back of public money being pumped into them )

unions want to:

* continue borrowing like crazy

dont agree

* not cut welfare of PS

what do you mean? welfare of public servants?

they want child beefit to be taxed rather than just a straight cut, but thats still a reduction for some

* increase income taxes

public servants would pay these higher increases too

* double capital gains tax

so, it was dramatically reduced in good times, why not increase it now?

* introduce property tax

so does the commission on taxation (and the government I'd say...look out for budget 2011)

swiss

JOC put in a shockingly poor performance. He dithered, he tried to refute patently obvious assertions, and when challenged merely reverted to stock union spiel about taxing the wealthy. I believe he said on one occasion 'what I'm saying very clearly' and then go on to make his position even more unclear.

If this is the standard of debate from the Union movement then they've done a huge disservice not only to it's members but to the country as a whole. Pat Kenny cut though his waffle quite effectively, though I feel in so doing probably revealed his own bias. I thought Moore McDowell and particularly Suzanne were very good. Suzanne stuck to the facts, and effectively spelled out what sort of tax regime on its own would deliver the required savings.

GalwayGunner

Are people honestly going to follow THIS eejit out on to the streets this Friday?!

On a side note though - really impressed with Pat Kenny ever since he left the Late Late Show - this definitely suits him a lot better - none of the show-business crap he had to pretend to like - just serious issues.

jammyhog

1st off of course there's gonna be a huge show on friday...joc looked like an idiot last nite, but most of the country thinks cowen, lenihan and co are idiots aswel... not even the unions believe they're gonna get the 10 pt plan considered, it's just a bargaining chip and a pr exercise to strenghten their position b4 the savage budget...by the way pat kenny fans, he looked just as bad 4 reacting the way he did, he obviously would rather those poor sods scraping by on the dole took the hit..

Psychedelic

GalwayGunner wrote: »

On a side note though - really impressed with Pat Kenny ever since he left the Late Late Show - this definitely suits him a lot better - none of the show-business crap he had to pretend to like - just serious issues.

He was an embarrasment to himself on the Late Late but he's has been excellent on the Frontline. Hard to believe it's the same guy at times.

yoshytoshy

jammyhog wrote: »

1st off of course there's gonna be a huge show on friday...joc looked like an idiot last nite, but most of the country thinks cowen, lenihan and co are idiots aswel... not even the unions believe they're gonna get the 10 pt plan considered, it's just a bargaining chip and a pr exercise to strenghten their position b4 the savage budget...by the way pat kenny fans, he looked just as bad 4 reacting the way he did, he obviously would rather those poor sods scraping by on the dole took the hit..

Pat kenny did himself proud ,by putting that twonk in his place. The show went on regardless of the comment ,where others might of squirmed.
Fair play to pat kenny ,never did like him on rte ,but at least he's trying to make a difference.

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'm a left leaning type of person but the performance by Jack O'Connor was truly terrible. The Unions have been in cahoots with FF and have milked the system over the past 10 years. The 'Leadership' in this country at government and Union level is abysmal. People like Cowen and O'Connor are not what is needed, we need a new approach.

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left. We'll disagree on how to do it but it should be clear to everyone that we can't just tax our way out of this and we can't borrow our way, we need to cut public spending.

Pride Fighter

nesf wrote: »

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left. We'll disagree on how to do it but it should be clear to everyone that we can't just tax our way out of this and we can't borrow our way, we need to cut public spending.

I'd agree with you. Cuts do have to be made. It is unrealistic to say otherwise. What gets on my nerves is people like hospital consultants and university presidents who have gotten huge pay increases while the recession has been in effect. It would be east to cut that but the government wont.

We need a broad approach to get out of this recession. Cuts only is not the way forward. Cuts, some new taxes and economic stimulus need to be all looked at. The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this. What is needed is a pro-enterprise approach. Encourage businesses to expand and hire staff when doing well. People prefer to work. The problem with an export economy is the fair weather taxes of the past will no longer exist. Ireland can get out of the current mess. It just needs the leadership of decent politicians to do it.

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd agree with you. Cuts do have to be made. It is unrealistic to say otherwise. What gets on my nerves is people like hospital consultants and university presidents who have gotten huge pay increases while the recession has been in effect. It would be east to cut that but the government wont.

We need a broad approach to get out of this recession. Cuts only is not the way forward. Cuts, some new taxes and economic stimulus need to be all looked at. The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this. What is needed is a pro-enterprise approach. Encourage businesses to expand and hire staff when doing well. People prefer to work. The problem with an export economy is the fair weather taxes of the past will no longer exist. Ireland can get out of the current mess. It just needs the leadership of decent politicians to do it.

We can't afford to do economic stimulus. Cuts and new taxes most certainly do have to happen but until we get the Current Government expenditure under control we cannot afford to borrow more money to fund stimulus spending.

However, being a small open economy stimulus spending isn't as crucial as it is for larger more inward looking countries. As the EU recovers our export sector will see an uptick in sales. This will act as a kind of stimulus and boost the amount of money entering the economy without us having to borrow a penny to finance it.

Kama

nesf wrote:

See this is the thing for me, it's not an ideological battle, it's not right versus left.

Perhaps, but that's not the way it looks to many, and that doesn't seem to be the predominant rhetoric on either side. Fintans comment on '2 Irelands' sums this position up quite well, and also with the narrowing of the agenda to the stale ideological expectations and reflexes:

'Slash/defend the public sector/welfare'

Innovative new solutions to a change management...

We will, fairly unavoidably, have to cut jobs/pay/services, and increase tax, and borrow to boot. And to do this without substantial rioting, you'd need the process to at least appear fair, and not informed entirely by own ideological hue.

gurramok

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Irish economy is performing well at the moment regarding our level of exports. An export driven economy based on making things and selling them is the way forward. We are in a good position to do this.

That's a bit disingenuous on the exports front. Its mostly been held up by pharma exports from a few MNC's whose contribution to employment from this growth is too small to have a significant inroad into unemployment.

nesf

Kama wrote: »

Perhaps, but that's not the way it looks to many, and that doesn't seem to be the predominant rhetoric on either side. Fintans comment on '2 Irelands' sums this position up quite well, and also with the narrowing of the agenda to the stale ideological expectations and reflexes:

'Slash/defend the public sector/welfare'

Innovative new solutions to a change management...

We will, fairly unavoidably, have to cut jobs/pay/services, and increase tax, and borrow to boot. And to do this without substantial rioting, you'd need the process to at least appear fair, and not informed entirely by own ideological hue.

The rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. Fintan might ramble on about 2 Irelands but he didn't any point last night make a contribution as to how we can get 4 billion in savings. If you can't bring suggestions to the table, honestly no one should be listening to you.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

That's a bit disingenuous on the exports front. Its mostly been held up by pharma exports from a few MNC's whose contribution to employment from this growth is too small to have a significant inroad into unemployment.

EU recovery and US recovery will help our export sectors though on both MNC front and local business front. It won't turn around the economy but it will help somewhat.

irish_bob

nesf wrote: »

The rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. Fintan might ramble on about 2 Irelands but he didn't any point last night make a contribution as to how we can get 4 billion in savings. If you can't bring suggestions to the table, honestly no one should be listening to you.

listening to fintan ( finger wagging ) o toole last night ,one would think thier was no discussion about ps pay , he never once adressed the issue , instead he spoke about NAMA and waffled on per usual about equality

Seth Brundle

jammyhog wrote: »

1st off of course there's gonna be a huge show on friday

1. how are all these people going to get time off at the same time?
2. are they expecting the private sector workers to come out in support? I'm sorry but even if I wanted to, I have to actually work to earn my money!
3. what are they protesting about, sure their pay hasn't been cut* and AFAIK (excluding those who have not had contracts renewed) none have lost their jobs because of the recession. I've taken a pay cut this year. I forgone an income raise this year because like my colleagues, I want my company to survive the downturn.
4. why would union members join a protest organised by a bunch of muppets such as Begg who constantly moan about the way the banks are being let off, etc. when he was on the board of the Central Bank who is meant to oversee the banks! How can people offer him any credibility at all?
5. are the public secor workers really expecting sympathy from the private sector workers?





* being forced into paying a contribution towards a hefty pension is not an income cut. I have to finance my own pension!

nesf

kbannon wrote: »

2. are they expecting the private sector workers to come out in support? I'm sorry but even if I wanted to, I have to actually work to earn my money!

Yes, they are.

Kama

So...it's not an ideological issue, but any discussion of inequality is waffling?
Stating that PS pay needs to come down, starting from the bloated top, is not once addressing the issue, and the comparison with NAMA irrelevant. Lets just focus on cutting wages and Child Benefit instead.

Fish not having words for water comes to mind...

nesf

Kama wrote: »

So...it's not an ideological issue, but any discussion of inequality is waffling?
Stating that PS pay needs to come down, starting from the bloated top, is not once addressing the issue, and the comparison with NAMA irrelevant. Lets just focus on cutting wages and Child Benefit instead.

Fish not having words for water comes to mind...

Nothing he said was new. Cutting pay by the most at the top is pretty much a staple line of every one involved in the discussion including the Government. Inequality is a problem but it's not the immediate problem facing us, i.e. the budget deficit. If we can address the deficit and address inequality at the same time with a couple of measures fantastic but the focus has to the the former not the latter.

Comparisons with NAMA are a red herring. NAMA has nothing to do with the Current Budget Deficit. We need a separate debate on NAMA and how to deal with the banks, not jumble it into an already complex debate about how to cut spending and raise taxes.

We can't afford to borrow, we need to cut something, this is where the debate needs to be. We're long past the point where we could choose not to cut spending.

starbelgrade

kbannon wrote: »

1. how are all these people going to get time off at the same time?
2. are they expecting the private sector workers to come out in support? I'm sorry but even if I wanted to, I have to actually work to earn my money!
3. what are they protesting about, sure their pay hasn't been cut* and AFAIK (excluding those who have not had contracts renewed) none have lost their jobs because of the recession. I've taken a pay cut this year. I forgone an income raise this year because like my colleagues, I want my company to survive the downturn.
4. why would union members join a protest organised by a bunch of muppets such as Begg who constantly moan about the way the banks are being let off, etc. when he was on the board of the Central Bank who is meant to oversee the banks! How can people offer him any credibility at all?
5. are the public secor workers really expecting sympathy from the private sector workers?





* being forced into paying a contribution towards a hefty pension is not an income cut. I have to finance my own pension!

I would normally give a post I agree with a +1, but this falls in the +3 category.

meglome

I watched the show online earlier and I have to agree with most other posters. How can O'Connor talk for the best part of ten minutes and not say anything that makes sense. It was like listening to a bad fairy story about how lead can be magically turned into gold. The unions want us all to believe in alchemy.

irish_bob

meglome wrote: »

I watched the show online earlier and I have to agree with most other posters. How can O'Connor talk for the best part of ten minutes and not say anything that makes sense. It was like listening to a bad fairy story about how lead can be magically turned into gold. The unions want us all to believe in alchemy.

the union heads have been blathering and waffling on radio and tv for weeks on end now , pat kenny was the 1st one who didnt accept thier rhetoric and actually scrutinized , mary wilson in particular is a disgrace but those on the news at one at not much better tbh

Darragh29

nesf wrote: »

However, being a small open economy...

This is a government invented soundbyte that I have never understood. The fact that our economy is considered to be "small", maybe around 4 million citizens in Ireland, I don't think is relevant. Our public sector should be portionally as small as the group of people who have to pay for it. If our tax paying community is small compared to say Germany or the UK, then so are our number of hospitals, Garda stations, etc.

I don't think we are an "open" economy either in the true meaning of the word open. We open our doors to foreign multinationals because we need them to come here and create jobs that we haven't the know how or work ethic to create for ourselves. In that respect we are open, because we expect other businesses to come here and do our heavy lifting for us.

It doesn't have to be this way, we could encourage entrepreneurship at home and be world leaders in job creation if we had credible and believable political leadership. But as long as we are clinging hopelessly to politically engineered soundbytes and throwing our hands up in the air while telling ourselves that, "after all, sure we're just a small open economy", well I suggest we are stuck with a massive unemployment problem for as long as that is what our attitude is like...

nesf

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is a government invented soundbyte that I have never understood. The fact that our economy is considered to be "small", maybe around 4 million citizens in Ireland, I don't think is relevant. Our public sector should be portionally as small as the group of people who have to pay for it. If our tax paying community is small compared to say Germany or the UK, then so are our number of hospitals, Garda stations, etc.

I don't think we are an "open" economy either in the true meaning of the word open. We open our doors to foreign multinationals because we need them to come here and create jobs that we haven't the know how or work ethic to create for ourselves. In that respect we are open, because we expect other businesses to come here and do our heavy lifting for us.

It doesn't have to be this way, we could encourage entrepreneurship at home and be world leaders in job creation if we had credible and believable political leadership. But as long as we are clinging hopelessly to politically engineered soundbytes and throwing our hands up in the air while telling ourselves that, "after all, sure we're just a small open economy", well I suggest we are stuck with a massive unemployment problem for as long as that is what our attitude is like...

An open economy is an economy whose economy is particularly dependent on external forces. It's got nothing to do with the public sector or anything else but solely the sensitivity of the economy to external market conditions. The word small is attached because of our size our economic condition doesn't impact on global market conditions.