Lyon v Liverpool (part one of a play in three acts) [Mod Warning Post #1 & Post #506]

joe123

I never want to see Voronin in a Liverpool jersey again.

starbelgrade

bayviewclose wrote: »

Rafa will bring on Spearing in a few weeks time

Spearing? Maybe that will help with the beach balls!

Spiritoftheseventies

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

The problem is that he had no money to spend on them. Voronin was free, and Krygiakos was a 2 million pound signing. Rafa has had to fill his squad with freebies and bargain-basement signings, because they money isn't there for him.

I think the main problem is the way Rafa lines out his team. It is clearly defensively minded. Again i will say this. Torres may leave soon if this continues. Support into him in absence of Gerrard was substandard.

elshambo

starbelgrade wrote: »

Spearing? Maybe that will help with the beach balls!

Thats shocking poor, even for you

Iago

Final warning on this thread, any further off-topic posting will lead to a weeks ban.

Off-topic posting includes whether or not any player was a waste of money, cost x million or y million, and whether or not Rafa should be sacked/walk/heralded on the streets of Liverpool.

Plenty of threads to discuss those things if you want, keep them off this one

Spiritoftheseventies

mada999 wrote: »

so... 10 of them probably make up nani .... 10 of them prob make up Anderson....;)
meh.... this has all prob been done before in another thread...I'll leave it...

The problem isn't the players. Its the system. Rafa thinks along the same lines as Trap. Appreciate what he has done but often wonder what life would have been like had Keegan been given the job (yeah, 4-3, 4-3 and more 4-3 scorelines). Am im being naive here?

Iago

Getting back on-topic I actually thought Liverpool played fairly well tonight. They were in control for most of the game and were patiently building for chances to come. Their play in the final third was a bit disappointing but they created plenty of chances regardless.

Ultimately it came down to a momentary loss of concentration and a poor attempt at a block that cost them a win. Lyon had other chances but at that point Liverpool should have been a couple of goals clear. When you're in a bad patch these things go against you, it happens to all clubs at different stages.

mada999

bayviewclose wrote: »

The problem isn't the players. Its the system. Rafa thinks along the same lines as Trap. Appreciate what he has done but often wonder what life would have been like had Keegan been given the job (yeah, 4-3, 4-3 and more 4-3 scorelines). Am im being naive here?

.....i don't think it's the system....we scored a serious amount of goals last season..... it's the personnel in the system i think....

tonight we were lacking the drive and determination of the Gerrards, the Alonso's) this season the Johnsons...

tbh i think we are lacking alot of pace in the team!

Spiritoftheseventies

Iago wrote: »

Getting back on-topic I actually thought Liverpool played fairly well tonight. They were in control for most of the game and were patiently building for chances to come. Their play in the final third was a bit disappointing but they created plenty of chances regardless.

Ultimately it came down to a momentary loss of concentration and a poor attempt at a block that cost them a win. Lyon had other chances but at that point Liverpool should have been a couple of goals clear. When you're in a bad patch these things go against you, it happens to all clubs at different stages.

Ultimately it came down to a lack of penetration. Apart from Babel strike we did not threaten. Its not good enough. When was last time Mascherano scored. Or Lucas. both are defensive midfielders. Time to put things in perspective. Less Gerrard our goals from Midfield is depressing.

Iago

bayviewclose wrote: »

Ultimately it came down to a lack of penetration. Apart from Babel strike we did not threaten.

I don't know if I agree with this, Lucas had a great 1v1 chance as did Voronin. Certainly Voronin should have scored although Lucas had a decent effort. Torres had a good half-chance in the first half as well which he was unlucky with.

Take Gerrard out of the team and still create 4 very good chances away from home against a good team in the Champions League and it's not a bad nights work. Unfortunately the recent run of poor results is playing on the mind of the players and they're nervous at the back, that led to the goal you conceded tonight without which the entire analysis of the game would be different I think.

kippy

Liverpool may have had the better of the chances but overall Lyon had more of them.
It was a decent enough match to watch. Liverpool missed some good chances in the first half and that ultimately cost them (coupled with some dodge defending)
Based on the match stats, I thought a draw was a fair result.
Lyon have some very tidy players and they do werent without their own injuries.


It leaves Liverpool hoping that other results go their way in the next two remaining games. Its possible they still go through, but with it not being in their hands theres feck all impact they can make on it.

No doubt Liverpools set up was hampered by injuries/unfit players and their recent spell has definetly been made worse by these injuries, but top teams get through it and move on.

Chucky the tree

bayviewclose wrote: »

Ultimately it came down to a lack of penetration. Apart from Babel strike we did not threaten. Its not good enough. When was last time Mascherano scored. Or Lucas. both are defensive midfielders. Time to put things in perspective. Less Gerrard our goals from Midfield is depressing.

What match did you watch? We had two one on one chances and plenty of other good chances. the problem is they fell to a forward who is useless and the other to a midfielders wouldn't be starting if rafa bought a fit midfielder to replace alonso.

Prufrock

bayviewclose wrote: »

Ultimately it came down to a lack of penetration. Apart from Babel strike we did not threaten. Its not good enough.

Last 20 mins or so it was obvious Liverpool were struggling to break down Lyon. Lyon did well though. Not a bad little team they have there. Didn't let the heads drop and did just enough to qualify. They might rest a few players heading to Italy now.

Spiritoftheseventies

kippy wrote: »

Liverpool may have had the better of the chances but overall Lyon had more of them.
It was a decent enough match to watch. Liverpool missed some good chances in the first half and that ultimately cost them (coupled with some dodge defending)
Based on the match stats, I thought a draw was a fair result.
Lyon have some very tidy players and they do werent without their own injuries.


It leaves Liverpool hoping that other results go their way in the next two remaining games. Its possible they still go through, but with it not being in their hands theres feck all impact they can make on it.

No doubt Liverpools set up was hampered by injuries/unfit players and their recent spell has definetly been made worse by these injuries, but top teams get through it and move on.

Yes I'm hoping really hoping that acquilani makes his first full team start in next game. Sure Merseyside (the red part obviously) are losing patience at this stage

daveyboy_1ie

joe123 wrote: »

I never want to see Voronin in a Liverpool jersey again.

Did not see the match but read he was simply awful. Think you may get your wish now.

SlickRic

haven't seen it yet, but gutted.

got a few texts during it, and by the sounds of it were solid enough, just not enough drive, and a very dodgy centre back in the greek guy.

i'm happy for babel.

it's an uphill task, and we need lyon to do us the mother of all favours to give us a chance.

bring it on!

in no small part...because i'm going to the fiorentina game.

flahavaj

If theres one consolation that comes from all this gametime for Voronin, its that no ones blaming Lucas anymore...........

eZe^

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What match did you watch? We had two one on one chances and plenty of other good chances. the problem is they fell to a forward who is useless and the other to a midfielders wouldn't be starting if rafa bought a fit midfielder to replace alonso.

This is the kind of stuff I fail to understand. The fact that Liverpool weren't able to convert these chances does nothing but reinforce opposition fans view that they just haven't been good enough so far this season. Yes it's unfortunate that they have been plagued by injuries, and if everyone was fit their season may be in a much healthier condition.

The fact remains that you pretty much had to win that game and you didn't, so there's no way of looking at this match and saying it was anything other than a failure. You can polish a bad result up all you want with stats, but Liverpool just weren't good enough tonight to do what they needed to do.

SlickRic

the one plus from tonight.

what a f*cking hit from babel.

f*ck me.

Nalz

eZe^ wrote: »

This is the kind of stuff I fail to understand. The fact that Liverpool weren't able to convert these chances does nothing but reinforce opposition fans view that they just haven't been good enough so far this season. Yes it's unfortunate that they have been plagued by injuries, and if everyone was fit their season may be in a much healthier condition.

The fact remains that you pretty much had to win that game and you didn't, so there's no way of looking at this match and saying it was anything other than a failure. You can polish a bad result up all you want with stats, but Liverpool just weren't good enough tonight to do what they needed to do.

I suppose this holds up when its occurring frequently - which is happening in Liverpools case. So good post imo.

LuckyLloyd

daithijjj wrote: »

What you are doing here is compairing a united liverpool thread full of fans from both teams, and compairing it to united fans (or whoever these people support) celebrating a teams goal who they do not support and are just making a cheap comment.

The fact that it happens shouldnt be put to the poster as some sort of recompense for when it has happened before. Look, there are plenty of fans from both united and liverpool who dont make the childish comments, you know, the mature sort. However, it would be nice if people from both sides could discourage those cheap comments, they add nothing and just flare up situations. Hence, the last 5 pages of any given match thread becomes a big dick swinging contest, more often than not is only loosely confined to the actual game.

Fair enough, celebrate the lyon goal, doesnt bother me as a liverpool fan, but please dont compare it too a united/liverpool match thread as a riposte to the poster for tonights game, its way off topic at best.

Very good.

Iago wrote: »

Getting back on-topic I actually thought Liverpool played fairly well tonight. They were in control for most of the game and were patiently building for chances to come. Their play in the final third was a bit disappointing but they created plenty of chances regardless.

Ultimately it came down to a momentary loss of concentration and a poor attempt at a block that cost them a win. Lyon had other chances but at that point Liverpool should have been a couple of goals clear. When you're in a bad patch these things go against you, it happens to all clubs at different stages.

Strongly agree, came in to post pretty much the above word for word.

eZe^ wrote: »

This is the kind of stuff I fail to understand. The fact that Liverpool weren't able to convert these chances does nothing but reinforce opposition fans view that they just haven't been good enough so far this season. Yes it's unfortunate that they have been plagued by injuries, and if everyone was fit their season may be in a much healthier condition.

The fact remains that you pretty much had to win that game and you didn't, so there's no way of looking at this match and saying it was anything other than a failure. You can polish a bad result up all you want with stats, but Liverpool just weren't good enough tonight to do what they needed to do.

This take on football (and sports in general) is extremely widespread, so I'm not going to blame you too much for recycling it here. But I would ask you to think long and hard about the highlighted paragraph and consider whether it is ultimately a logical position to hold.

UnitedIrishman

Funny game that. Liverpool had a lot of possession and a couple of chances but they fell to the wrong players. They badly missed a Xabi/Steve G to put through a final ball and Liverpool fans will be counting the days until Aquilani is fit - if he is as good as he is hyped up to be.

Main things that baffle me -

1) Voronin starts two games in a row despite being mediocre against Arsenal in the league cup whilst Babel - a guy who showed himself as a threat at times last year - remains on the bench. Surely the best option was to put Babel out wide and Benayoun playing the role Voronin was?

2) Torres being taken off with 5 mins left. What difference is 5 more mins going to make? Benitez again goes into 'looking two steps forward' mode. Instead, Ngog gives away a free and moments later Lyon attack and score. I'm not blaming Ngog obviously but it's a strange move all the same.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

...

IRISHSPORTSGUY

It'll be interesting to see some other team than Liverpool on a Tuesday/Wednesday night. Man Utd being the other team obviously.

Morzadec

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This take on football (and sports in general) is extremely widespread, so I'm not going to blame you too much for recycling it here. But I would ask you to think long and hard about the highlighted paragraph and consider whether it is ultimately a logical position to hold.

John Giles is one that loves this viewpoint: 'There's no such thing as luck', 'You get what you deserve'. It greatly confused him when Trappatoni got results playing in a way that Giles disagreed with.

I'm not necessarily saying Liverpool deserved to win tonight, but I hate this black and white view of 'you didn't do it so you weren't good enough to do it'.

To be honest I think there are a lot of positives to take from tonight. We were the better team, the more dangerous team and the team looking to win it away from home against a top European side, with a decimated squad.

Ultimately these injuries came to hurt us as the defending wasn't good enough for Lyon's goal.

But in terms of performance, all things considered I thought the lads did well enough. Not amazing but a solid, assured performance given all the problems and the importance and pressure of the game. I can't fault most of the players on that pitch (certainly not the ones who I expect to see frequently play this season and this is the most important thing). They certainly did enough to win the game.

In the long term it's a crushing result as we are probably out of the CL. But I don't think this is in any way an end of an era (the revival under Rafa). With the quality of players to come back I can't see us not being back here again next year under Rafa being amongst the top 6 or 7 favourites to lift the trophy.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This take on football (and sports in general) is extremely widespread, so I'm not going to blame you too much for recycling it here. But I would ask you to think long and hard about the highlighted paragraph and consider whether it is ultimately a logical position to hold.

Ugh, could you be anymore patronising?

Why exactly is he not being logical? Maybe if you stated why you disagreed it would be more conducive to discussion, on this a discussion forum?

UnitedIrishman

Morzadec wrote: »

John Giles is one that loves this viewpoint: 'There's no such thing as luck', 'You get what you deserve'. It greatly confused him when Trappatoni got results playing in a way that Giles disagreed with.

I'm not necessarily saying Liverpool deserved to win tonight, but I hate this black and white view of 'you didn't do it so you weren't good enough to do it'.

Posted by me from another thread -

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

As someone earlier said, you make your own luck. You can eliminate the chance of bad luck happening by how you set yourselves. What I can't understand is why Liverpool didn't shut up shop, drop bodies back and take the 1-0? It's the CL; you need the win; you have one defender who is as slow as a turtle and another on a yellow. Drop 10 men behind the ball and let Lyon bomb balls into the penalty area if they want. Kyrgiakos, Agger and Carragher would be well able to deal with that for five minutes. When Lyon scored it was if Liverpool were stretched out the pitch. That shouldn't happen.

cson

kippy wrote: »

Liverpool may have had the better of the chances but overall Lyon had more of them.

Don't agree with that, Liverpool had two huge chances with Lucas and Voronin. Granted Hugo Lloris (who will blocking us out in the Qualifiers I'm afraid) had an inspired match, they were two chances that should have been converted by the players. But therin lies the problem - Voronin and Lucas are not good enough to convert them and therefore not good enough for Liverpool FC. It's depth the squad is missing at the moment I feel, granted there has been bad luck with injuries but you do need players to cover for them.

@ IRISHSPORTSGUY: Wtf has that got to do with the match?

Dave!

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Very good.

Check out last year's Champions League final thread instead then.

Morzadec

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Posted by me from another thread -

Yeah I'm not neccessarily using this match as a prime example. Ultimately we didn't hang on and the quality of defending wasn't good enough, but another day with the same people out there we could've hung on and no one would be debating whether Liverpool deserved to win. I just don't go along in general with the strict black and white view of 'making your own luck'.

I mean, to approach the same argument from a anti-Liverpool standpoint, were AC Milan 'just not good enough' to win in Istanbul in 2005?

eZe^

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This take on football (and sports in general) is extremely widespread, so I'm not going to blame you too much for recycling it here. But I would ask you to think long and hard about the highlighted paragraph and consider whether it is ultimately a logical position to hold.

Yes father. I never said there wasn't positives to be taken from the game, or that their wasn't a reasonable explanation for it. But everyone at Liverpool, the fans, the players, the management knew that today was essentially a must win game. They had 90 minutes to potentially get their season back on track. And the fact Liverpool didn't get all 3 points IS a failure. However, when you look at the reasons why, it means that any speculation about sacking a manager, making wild decisions, etc need to be rubbished. If you isolate this game, I still fail to see how not winning a must win game regardless of performance, injuries, weather, sexual orientation of players is anything other than a failure (even if Liverpool go on to win the CL and EPL, this one match result on it's own is still seen as a failure).

flahavaj

Morzadec wrote: »

I mean, to approach the same argument from a anti-Liverpool standpoint, were AC Milan 'just not good enough' to win in Istanbul in 2005?

Any team that throws away a three goal half time lead in a Champs League Final deserves not to win it IMO.

cson

Very valid point from Eze. You can go on about how great a performance away from home against a decent tough European side it was but in the cold light of day you're still on the cusp of being knocked out of the Champions League at the group stages and I'm sure at the start of the season that would have been regarded as failure.

Morzadec

eZe^ wrote: »

Yes father. I never said there wasn't positives to be taken from the game, or that their wasn't a reasonable explanation for it. But everyone at Liverpool, the fans, the players, the management knew that today was essentially a must win game. They had 90 minutes to potentially get their season back on track. And the fact Liverpool didn't get all 3 points IS a failure. However, when you look at the reasons why, it means that any speculation about sacking a manager, making wild decisions, etc need to be rubbished. If you isolate this game, I still fail to see how not winning a must win game regardless of performance, injuries, weather, sexual orientation of players is anything other than a failure (even if Liverpool go on to win the CL and EPL, this one match result on it's own is still seen as a failure).

Agreed it was a failure ultimately. But not one I'm wholly downbeat about re: the future, as it very easily could've been a success

Morzadec

flahavaj wrote: »

Any team that throws away a three goal half time lead in a Champs League Final deserves not to win it IMO.

True true, but what I'm asking is were they good enough to win it? I think any logical football fan (even the diehard Pool supporters) would have to acknowledge that if that game was played 10 times, Milan would've won at least 7. They were definitely 'good enough' to win it, no?

I don't know maybe the point I'm trying to make is redundant as eZe has clarified what he means. I just know that I've had this debate before and there are some that believe you get exactly what you deserve and that results are ultimately the only measure of whether a team was 'good enough' or not, which in my view is an incredibly blinkered and illogical way to view things, and which is what Lloyd was arguing against originally.

eZe^

Morzadec wrote: »

Agreed it was a failure ultimately. But not one I'm wholly downbeat about re: the future, as it very easily could've been a success

Good, I hope my post wasn't taken on in such a negative light either. I mean, Liverpool have been quite awful at times this season (tonight wasn't one of those occasions), but they have been up against it constantly too. Injuries and the fact that I've never seen the media so hyped about trying to get a manager sacked as they do with Benitez. Hardly helps the situation.

Liverpool FC seems to foster a certain mentality among opposition fans and the media, because they went from the dominant team in England to one that hasn't won a domestic title in 18 years. It means that everyone outside of the club almost has a sick pleasure with seeing them fail after getting so close, the manager seems to be under as much pressure from the media as a Real Madrid manager is. It's a bit ridiculous really, and sometimes the overachieving actually works against you, because it gives analysts an excuse to slay you when you are down.

flahavaj

Morzadec wrote: »

True true, but what I'm asking is were they good enough to win it? I think any logical football fan (even the diehard Pool supporters) would have to acknowledge that if that game was played 10 times, Milan would've won at least 7. They were definitely 'good enough' to win it, no?

Obviously they were good enough, but so were Liverpool. They both reached the final on merit and beat good teams along the way. Whats your point???

I don't know maybe the point I'm trying to make is redundant as eZe has clarified what he means. I just know that I've had this debate before and there are some that believe you get exactly what you deserve and that results are ultimately the only measure of whether a team was 'good enough' or not, which in my view is an incredibly blinkered and illogical way to view things, and which is what Lloyd was arguing against originally.

There was a horrible horrible thread about this in the last while, it hurt my eyes to read it, lets not do that again EVER.:pac:

cson

eZe^ wrote: »

It means that everyone outside of the club almost has a sick pleasure with seeing them fail after getting so close, the manager seems to be under as much pressure from the media as a Real Madrid manager is.

Read Ronnie Whelan here.

SlickRic

eZe^ wrote: »

Injuries and the fact that I've never seen the media so hyped about trying to get a manager sacked as they do with Benitez. Hardly helps the situation.

more than anything, this is causing all the defensiveness from Liverpool fans.

none of us understand what he has done to be so villified by the media. until this season, it's all been building nicely. this is the first real hiccup i can remember. it's like it's the moment everyone's been waiting for.

CHD

I just know in Feb or thereabouts we will be playin yous in the KO stages and i will lose another couple of years off my life.

Unlucky again tonight. Should have put them away. Stil can't write yous off though

mayordenis

CHD wrote: »

I just know in Feb or thereabouts we will be playin yous in the KO stages and i will lose another couple of years off my life.

Unlucky again tonight. Should have put them away. Stil can't write yous off though

See you in Madrid in may maybe? :pac:

CHD

Probably!

RasTa

Rewind

noodler

You know what, I got to page 30 of this thread and thats all I can muster.

Great effort lads, all over them and some better finishing would have seen us win this 3-0.

If you watched this game and didn't think Liverpool were the better team then at least you have found out early that football is not for you.

Fiorentina still have to go to Lyon and get something, and I am telling you this now, I will love it, LUV IT, if we beat them.



EDIT: I really feel sorry for Babel, this would have been the biggest moment in his Liverpool career. Poor lad.

Bandit12

Still in shock we did'nt win that game. Dominated them from the start and if Torres had have been 100% fit we would have killed Lyon. Getting absolutly no luck whatsoever this season and i'm gutted for Babel after that goal.

kippy

cson wrote: »

Don't agree with that, Liverpool had two huge chances with Lucas and Voronin. Granted Hugo Lloris (who will blocking us out in the Qualifiers I'm afraid) had an inspired match, they were two chances that should have been converted by the players. But therin lies the problem - Voronin and Lucas are not good enough to convert them and therefore not good enough for Liverpool FC. It's depth the squad is missing at the moment I feel, granted there has been bad luck with injuries but you do need players to cover for them.

@ IRISHSPORTSGUY: Wtf has that got to do with the match?

http://soccernet-assets.espn.go.com/match?id=283253&league=UEFA.CHAMPIONS&cc=5739
Check out the stats.
Lyon had more chances, The Lyon keeper only made on more save than the Liverpool keeper.
Liverpool did appear to have the better chances.
Thats exactly what I said and I cant see how you disagree with that view.

Torres also missed a decent chance in my opinion, you arent saying he isnt good enough....

alibabba

Sad morning for LFC
The long term outcome to this results .....

Champions Lg gone !
Premier gone !
Benny gone !
Torres gone !
Yanks gone !

gucci

eZe^ wrote: »

Good, I hope my post wasn't taken on in such a negative light either. I mean, Liverpool have been quite awful at times this season (tonight wasn't one of those occasions), but they have been up against it constantly too. Injuries and the fact that I've never seen the media so hyped about trying to get a manager sacked as they do with Benitez. Hardly helps the situation.

Liverpool FC seems to foster a certain mentality among opposition fans and the media, because they went from the dominant team in England to one that hasn't won a domestic title in 18 years. It means that everyone outside of the club almost has a sick pleasure with seeing them fail after getting so close, the manager seems to be under as much pressure from the media as a Real Madrid manager is. It's a bit ridiculous really, and sometimes the overachieving actually works against you, because it gives analysts an excuse to slay you when you are down.

This is something i have been trying to say for about 2 years, and have not actually been able to sit down and phrase it out properly.

Dont be at yourself

1) Voronin starts two games in a row despite being mediocre against Arsenal in the league cup whilst Babel - a guy who showed himself as a threat at times last year - remains on the bench. Surely the best option was to put Babel out wide and Benayoun playing the role Voronin was?

Because that would leave Babel to protect Insua on the left, against a team with plenty of pace and penetration down the flanks.

kippy

Good, I hope my post wasn't taken on in such a negative light either. I mean, Liverpool have been quite awful at times this season (tonight wasn't one of those occasions), but they have been up against it constantly too. Injuries and the fact that I've never seen the media so hyped about trying to get a manager sacked as they do with Benitez. Hardly helps the situation.

Liverpool FC seems to foster a certain mentality among opposition fans and the media, because they went from the dominant team in England to one that hasn't won a domestic title in 18 years. It means that everyone outside of the club almost has a sick pleasure with seeing them fail after getting so close, the manager seems to be under as much pressure from the media as a Real Madrid manager is. It's a bit ridiculous really, and sometimes the overachieving actually works against you, because it gives analysts an excuse to slay you when you are down.

gucci wrote: »

This is something i have been trying to say for about 2 years, and have not actually been able to sit down and phrase it out properly.

To be honest with you, and this is completely off topic for this thread, but people treat Liverpool as such because most of their fans still believe Liverpool to be in those glory days and big up the club and players as such when it is plainly obvious they are nowhere near as dominant as they were in the good aul days.
The fans havent accepted that, and rightly so, and hence they would rather substitute reality with their version.
Sorry, but thats just how I see it.
There is no doubt, when all fit and when playing with some luck they are a very good first 11. So too are about 6 teams in the PL.
Liverpool as a club in one of the biggest Cities in the country that invented the game and a club that has such a strong history in the game deserves better.
Until they get a new stadium, by whatever means, and/or a new investor (who doesnt completely eat up the club with debt) they are going to be doing well to keep up with the clubs with more money. And lets be honest, there are at least 4 clubs with access to more money at the moment. This does not bode well for Liverpool FC over the coming years. United have managed to keep this debt under control due to the matchday income and their success over the recent past. Liverpool have neither of these things and something has to change very fast.