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The developers arre screwing us !

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  • 04-11-2009 1:32am
    #1
    soden12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 154 ✭✭


    In the Independent today they had an article on house prices and the moaning from the Irish House Builders Association regarding how bad things were etc etc ochon ochon.

    In the next breath they mentioned a thief/developer who was selling houses in Adamstown. He had to reduce the price from over 300k to around 159k but he was still making a profit...

    So whilst the ordinary man is losing his job, the Quinn family are having their loans written off by the Quinn group (who have screwed young drivers) and the developers are still making money.


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    #2
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    Nothing new in that. I remember an estate that was built in Athlone in '93, the houses and sites cost just over £3k each and sold for almost £53k each. The developer made over £1m in under a year. The same houses are now selling at £280k. Work out how much the banks made on a £53k house then subtract the cost and what do you have? Some poor sod paying hundreds of thousands for £3k worth of land and materials.


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    #3
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Should we ban people from selling houses for a profit?


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    #4
    Offy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    Good God no, we should insist that nothing can be sold without making a profit of 1000 times what was payed for an item.


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    #5
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    Offy wrote: »
    Good God no, we should insist that nothing can be sold without making a profit of 1000 times what was payed for an item.

    And how different is a developer/builder who tries to get the best price for what he is selling than anyone else in this country?


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    #6
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    Soldie wrote: »
    Should we ban people from selling houses for a profit?

    picard-no-facepalm.jpg


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    #7
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    soden12 wrote: »
    In the Independent today they had an article on house prices and the moaning from the Irish House Builders Association regarding how bad things were etc etc ochon ochon.

    In the next breath they mentioned a thief/developer who was selling houses in Adamstown. He had to reduce the price from over 300k to around 159k but he was still making a profit...

    So whilst the ordinary man is losing his job, the Quinn family are having their loans written off by the Quinn group (who have screwed young drivers) and the developers are still making money.

    What is the point of this post exactly. The house costs what it costs, it is worth what people are willing to pay for it. If you think the developer is taking the p1ss then don't buy the house. Every business has the right to charge what it wishes for the services it provides (bar exceptions where prices are set by law).

    Your point with the Quinn group is also, in my opinion, null and void - Quinn are almost always the cheapest insurer for younger drivers, as the company is a private company, it has every right to pay its shareholders as it deems fit.

    I fail to see how the Quinn group has anything to do with the prices charged by a developer in Adamstown. It seems to me that people are so intent on blaming developers and banks at any price that they are far to willing to transcend the boundaries of logic.

    Change the record.


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    #8
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Should we ban people from selling houses for a profit?

    No. But we should not compensate them if they make a loss or buy the houses from them at a "long term" price.


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    #9
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. But we should not compensate them if they make a loss or buy the houses from them at a "long term" price.

    How are they being compensated for making a loss? And what do we want here a profit or a loss? Jebus, there is no pleasing some people.


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    #10
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    ardmacha wrote: »
    No. But we should not compensate them if they make a loss or buy the houses from them at a "long term" price.

    They are not being compensated. They lost their deposits on the houses, and have the deeds / property confinscated from them. Nama / the banks hold the deeds.


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    #11
    skooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭skooby


    the developers cant be blamed for making a profit. that is good business. why would they bother working for a loss. its not like you had a choice of one devloper to buy from. it was a wide market.
    dont get me wrong im not a fan of developers by any means. the sub standard housing left behind by a few of them is a disgrace. the unfinished sites around the country is an eyesore. the bills left unpaid to suppliers and banks is crippling the economy
    but this discussion was questioning they should make so much profit. simply put yourself in their shoes. if you have a house which cost you 120k to build and the market is there to sell at 300k wht would you do.


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    #12
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    I am not a big fan of developers either, but I suspect most of them right now would love a job that paid 50k a year, flexitime, paid holidays + sickies, guaranteed pension etc. Most of them ( except for the really big ones possibly ) got greedy + reinvested whatever profits they made in to new development land etc , or bank shares, + in the process lost whatever profits they ever made.


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    #13
    dRNk SAnTA
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    To the OP I've got another newsflash, the costs involved in running hotels doesn't increase on six nation weekends either

    Price is based on what the market is willing to pay! Don't pay it if you don't like it!


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    #14
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I am not a big fan of developers either, but I suspect most of them right now would love a job that paid 50k a year, flexitime, paid holidays + sickies, guaranteed pension etc. Most of them ( except for the really big ones possibly ) got greedy + reinvested whatever profits they made in to new development land etc , or bank shares, + in the process lost whatever profits they ever made.

    Only jimmmy could post in a thread about developers and try to turn it into a public sector bash.


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    #15
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I am not a big fan of developers either, but I suspect most of them right now would love a job that paid 50k a year, flexitime, paid holidays + sickies, guaranteed pension etc. Most of them ( except for the really big ones possibly ) got greedy + reinvested whatever profits they made in to new development land etc , or bank shares, + in the process lost whatever profits they ever made.

    :rolleyes:

    In all fairness Jimmy, do you need to bash the public sector even in unrelated threads?


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    #16
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    #15 wrote: »
    In all fairness Jimmy, ...

    Your question collapses there.

    [I'm still struggling with the idea that if we cut public sector pay the price of private sector dentistry would come down.]


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    #17
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Only jimmmy could post in a thread about developers and try to turn it into a public sector bash.
    I never mentioned the "public sector" - you did. My point was that most of them are bust. As Colm McCarthy said on RTE's Frontline a few weeks ago, if you squeeze them fully, they would only be able to pay the national debt borrowing for "about an hour and a half ".


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    #18
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Your question collapses there.

    [I'm still struggling with the idea that if we cut public sector pay the price of private sector dentistry would come down.]

    Who mentioned "the idea that if we cut public sector pay the price of private sector dentistry would come down" ? This thread is about developers, please keep on topic. If you want to talk about dentists prices, I am no fan of the prices dentists charge here, but if you reduce tax + vat then their prices should come down. They charge what the market will bear. I asked one of them once why his prices were higher than those in N. Ireland, he said why shouldn't he, wages are less up North. He did not say " his wife came from N. Ireland and her brother was in the public service there and only earned half what he would in the public service south of the border.";)

    To get back on topic, the original poster wrote "The developers arre screwing us ! ".
    I wonder are there any developers left in the country who have a viable business left ?


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    #19
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    soden12 wrote: »
    a thief/developer who was selling houses in Adamstown. He had to reduce the price from over 300k to around 159k but he was still making a profit...
    The bastard, trying to maximize profit margins in his business.
    What is the world coming to?


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    #20
    skooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭skooby


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I wonder are there any developers left in the country who have a viable business left ?

    a viable business, no
    still a high class of living most of them.
    has anybody seen liam carroll busking on the streets. didnt think so


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    #21
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    skooby wrote: »
    a viable business, no
    still a high class of living most of them.
    has anybody seen liam carroll busking on the streets. didnt think so

    Even if he was busking, no one would throw him any money anyway!

    But, he was a successful business man for a long time. He has earned that standard of living (mostly)


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    #22
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    skooby wrote: »
    a viable business, no
    still a high class of living most of them.
    has anybody seen liam carroll busking on the streets. didnt think so

    No, but I bet he would trade it now for a quiet life without the damage he has done to his health.


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    #23
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    MaceFace wrote: »
    No, but I bet he would trade it now for a quiet life without the damage he has done to his health.

    What health?
    He is a rich and successful business man... so clearly he is a demon-spawn of the dark one... with deep black oil running in his evil veins...

    We don't like successful people here in Ireland. Don't you know that?


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    #24
    skooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭skooby


    optocynic wrote: »
    !
    But, he was a successful business man for a long time. He has earned that standard of living (mostly)

    i agree he has earned the standard of living but my last post was done in haste and left out a bit of info. these people are certainly entitled to their high life. in fairness they created a lot of tax revenue and employment when they were doing well. the point i was trying to get across is how can these developers walk away now after been successful. surely these men that are so personally wealthy now could re-invest soemthing into the company to save it sinking.
    sorry for straying from the point of the thread. but i feel that the selling houses part is not where they are screwing people, its the fact that they can walk away from it now and be still financially sound.


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    #25
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    skooby wrote: »
    i agree he has earned the standard of living but my last post was done in haste and left out a bit of info. these people are certainly entitled to their high life. in fairness they created a lot of tax revenue and employment when they were doing well. the point i was trying to get across is how can these developers walk away now after been successful. surely these men that are so personally wealthy now could re-invest soemthing into the company to save it sinking.
    sorry for straying from the point of the thread. but i feel that the selling houses part is not where they are screwing people, its the fact that they can walk away from it now and be still financially sound.

    I agree, but, as we saw with Carroll's titanic battle in the courts. He tried everything to keep his employees in a job!..

    It is the great Irish lie, that all successful people don't care about their employees. That is NOT my experience!


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    #26
    skooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭skooby


    optocynic wrote: »
    It is the great Irish lie, that all successful people don't care about their employees. That is NOT my experience!

    i would like to point out that most employers i know are very caring towards there employees. more so now in the tough times as they dont want the stress of worrying about putting another family on the streets. liam carroll was a bad example on my behalf as no matter what he tried it was a losing battle.


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    #27
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    optocynic wrote: »
    Even if he was busking, no one would throw him any money anyway!

    But, he was a successful business man for a long time. He has earned that standard of living (mostly)

    Actually, it is reported ( and was over the years of the Celtic tiger ) that despite the thousands of jobs Liam Carroll created, despite the tens of millions of euro tax he collected in employing these people, despite the tens of millions of euro he paid to the govt in stamp duty etc , he still drove an ordinary Toyota Corolla hatchback, dressed normally and lived in a ordinary semi-d in suburbia ( Mount Merrion / Churchtown I think it was ). To see him on a site, as he often was, you would think he was an ordinary foreman. I do not know him personally, but nobody would call it "a high class of living " as a poster on this board wrote.

    N.B. I disagree with him building his apartments so small etc but that is a different debate.
    He done what the market wanted at the time, as he saw it.


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    #28
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Actually, it is reported ( and was over the years of the Celtic tiger ) that despite the thousands of jobs Liam Carroll created, despite the tens of millions of euro tax he collected in employing these people, despite the tens of millions of euro he paid to the govt in stamp duty etc , he still drove an ordinary Toyota Corolla hatchback, dressed normally and lived in a ordinary semi-d in suburbia ( Mount Merrion / Churchtown I think it was ). To see him on a site, as he often was, you would think he was an ordinary foreman. I do not know him personally, but nobody would call it "a high class of living " as a poster on this board wrote.

    Really?
    That's interesting. A lot of successful guys out there like that. They like to make the money, but they don't like to appear to be garish with it. It is quiet commendable actually.


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    #29
    CamperMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭CamperMan


    the property developers were in it to make a profit... that is what business is about... making a profit. The people I blame are the banks for loaning people far to much money to buy these overpriced houses in the first place!


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    #30
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    CamperMan wrote: »
    the property developers were in it to make a profit... that is what business is about... making a profit. The people I blame are the banks for loaning people far to much money to buy these overpriced houses in the first place!

    But they, too, were doing no more than seek to make a profit.

    Our property bubble can not be blamed on any single sector of society -- although I agree that the financial sector, a fairly amorphous group, were more culpable than most other sectors.


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    #31
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    But they, too, were doing no more than seek to make a profit.

    Our property bubble can not be blamed on any single sector of society -- although I agree that the financial sector, a fairly amorphous group, were more culpable than most other sectors.

    The list of sectors and people to blame is almost endless.
    And I do agree that we are ALL to blame.

    But, why did our regulator not have his finger on the pulse of the financial sector. A bit of proactive regulation 5 years ago on mortgage sizes would have been an enormous help!!


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