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The developers arre screwing us !

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    #32
    skooby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭skooby


    CamperMan wrote: »
    The people I blame are the banks for loaning people far to much money to buy these overpriced houses in the first place!

    like myself this is far from the point of this thread but a truely valid point. they should have valued the properties themselves and not just thrown money at whoever asked for it


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    #33
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    optocynic wrote: »
    The list of sectors and people to blame is almost endless.
    And I do agree that we are ALL to blame.

    But, why did our regulator not have his finger on the pulse of the financial sector. A bit of proactive regulation 5 years ago on mortgage sizes would have been an enormous help!!

    +1. Also the government encouraged people to invest in the economy by offering section 23, section 27 and section 50 tax incentives. This was a ten year scheme, with clawbacks within the 10 years if exited etc. The govt kept extending the deadlines for expiry of the section 23 / 27 incentives, which together with promises of decentralisation, gateway cities etc led to overdevelopment of property in some parts of the country. Many of these people, like the developers, have got burnt.


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    #34
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    But they, too, were doing no more than seek to make a profit.

    Our property bubble can not be blamed on any single sector of society -- although I agree that the financial sector, a fairly amorphous group, were more culpable than most other sectors.

    Me - I blame the politicians. They were elected to govern and there has been a lack of that for a long time.


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    #35
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    optocynic wrote: »
    ... But, why did our regulator not have his finger on the pulse of the financial sector. ...

    Because a lot of people, including builders, developers, bankers, politicians, estate agents, bank shareholders (including bodies like pension funds), people selling on their homes, and people seeking to buy homes, did not want it.

    The property bubble was a collective mistake, but the regulator was doing what was expected of him. It is unfortunate that we did not have a regulator who had a mindset that enabled him to resist such expectations, but it is also possible that if he had been tougher he would have been replaced.

    In my view, the disaster could have been prevented or moderated only by the political establishment.


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    #36
    niamh4626
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭niamh4626


    I am a FTB and I bought an apartment in Adamstown in June for €190k, it was initially priced at €350k......:D How do I know it was that price, because I used to work out there for Gunne at the start of time. When I was buying I haggled with the main man himself, he did want €220k for it initially.

    It makes me feel good anyways 'saving' €160k on what my neighbours paid for their apartments plus I rented out my spare room and the tenant is practically paying my mortgage, all I have to put towards it is €11.05/month!!! ;)


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    #37
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Because a lot of people, including builders, developers, bankers, politicians, estate agents, bank shareholders (including bodies like pension funds), people selling on their homes, and people seeking to buy homes, did not want it.

    The property bubble was a collective mistake, but the regulator was doing what was expected of him. It is unfortunate that we did not have a regulator who had a mindset that enabled him to resist such expectations, but it is also possible that if he had been tougher he would have been replaced.

    In my view, the disaster could have been prevented or moderated only by the political establishment.

    Exactly. Or in my more simplistic terms. Stamp Duty would have stopped increasing. maybe the financial regulator sould not be a political appointee!


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    #38
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    niamh4626 wrote: »
    I am a FTB and I bought an apartment in Adamstown in June for €190k, it was initially priced at €350k......:D How do I know it was that price, because I used to work out there for Gunne at the start of time. When I was buying I haggled with the main man himself, he did want €220k for it initially.

    It makes me feel good anyways 'saving' €160k on what my neighbours paid for their apartments plus I rented out my spare room and the tenant is practically paying my mortgage, all I have to put towards it is €11.05/month!!! ;)

    Why you capitalist monster!:D
    Kudos on the success.


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    #39
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    the regulator was doing what was expected of him.
    People expected him to have his finger on the pulse of the financial sector, but instead he put his feet up + done nothing....
    He still gets his big fat p.s. pension I am sure.


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    #40
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    People expected him to have his finger on the pulse of the financial sector, but instead he put his feet up + done nothing....

    I have just explained why I think that people expected him not to have his finger on the pulse, and your response is to ignore what I said.


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    #41
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I have just explained why I think that people expected him not to have his finger on the pulse, and your response is to ignore what I said.

    You gave a list of the people ( " a lot of people, including builders, developers, bankers, politicians, estate agents, bank shareholders (including bodies like pension funds), people selling on their homes, and people seeking to buy homes,) and said they " did not want it. "

    You then wrote "The property bubble was a collective mistake, but the regulator was doing what was expected of him. It is unfortunate that we did not have a regulator who had a mindset that enabled him to resist such expectations, but it is also possible that if he had been tougher he would have been replaced." I think the general public deserved to have a regulator who knew what was going on at the banks.
    People invested a lot of money and life savings in bank shares on the expectation that the banks were properly regulated. If they were, the banks would not have collapsed as much as they have. The regulator should have done his job, and if he got sacked by the govt for speaking out, he could have crossed that bridge when he came to it.


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    #42
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    You gave a list of the people ( " a lot of people, including builders, developers, bankers, politicians, estate agents, bank shareholders (including bodies like pension funds), people selling on their homes, and people seeking to buy homes,) and said they " did not want it. "

    You then wrote "The property bubble was a collective mistake, but the regulator was doing what was expected of him. It is unfortunate that we did not have a regulator who had a mindset that enabled him to resist such expectations, but it is also possible that if he had been tougher he would have been replaced." I think the general public deserved to have a regulator who knew what was going on at the banks.
    People invested a lot of money and life savings in bank shares on the expectation that the banks were properly regulated.

    People, especially investors in bank shares, were ambiguous about regulation. They also wanted the banks to chase profits.
    If they were, the banks would not have collapsed as much as they have.

    On that we can agree.
    The regulator should have done his job, and if he got sacked by the govt for speaking out, he could have crossed that bridge when he came to it.

    I agree that he should have acted differently, but if the political environment in which he operated favoured "light touch", then his choosing to make a martyr of himself might not have achieved anything useful. That is why I also said that
    In my view, the disaster could have been prevented or moderated only by the political establishment.
    For some reason, you ignore that point although, oddly, when MaceFace made the same point you thanked him/her.


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    #43
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    People, especially investors in bank shares, were ambiguous about regulation. They also wanted the banks to chase profits..
    Investors in bank shares wanted the banks to make profits, that is true, but they expected the banks to be properly regulated. They clearly were not. Investors, inc many pensioners and small savers, lost a high percentage of their life savings in the whole mess. The regulator, like the Central bankers and the politicians , get to keep their pensions, funded by the taxpayer, who has no choice but to fund them.

    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    For some reason, you ignore that point although, oddly, when MaceFace made the same point you thanked him/her.
    Maceface replied to you and made a different point to the point you made. Maceface stated "Me - I blame the politicians. They were elected to govern and there has been a lack of that for a long time. ". I agree with Maceface and thanked him / her as I made that point before in different threads.


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    #44
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    ... Maceface replied to you and made a different point to the point you made...

    Please be so kind as to explain the essential difference.


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    #45
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Please be so kind as to explain the essential difference.
    Certainly. In his post no. 34 he referred to your post " Our property bubble can not be blamed on any single sector of society -- although I agree that the financial sector, a fairly amorphous group, were more culpable than most other sectors"
    Maceface wrote / replied : ".Me - I blame the politicians. They were elected to govern and there has been a lack of that for a long time.".


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    #46
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    niamh4626 wrote: »
    I am a FTB and I bought an apartment in Adamstown in June for €190k, it was initially priced at €350k......:D How do I know it was that price, because I used to work out there for Gunne at the start of time. When I was buying I haggled with the main man himself, he did want €220k for it initially.

    It makes me feel good anyways 'saving' €160k on what my neighbours paid for their apartments plus I rented out my spare room and the tenant is practically paying my mortgage, all I have to put towards it is €11.05/month!!! ;)

    Thats the way it goes with property. However don't be surprised when those on rent allowance move in and laugh at you for paying 190K. Then your tenant moves out and interest rates rise.


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    #47
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    With regard to the regulators (both the FSRA and Central Bank) the thing was that they too got sucked into the bubble and failed to see it as such. They are specifically paid by the public to stand outside the various fads and manias and view things objectively. It is an indictment of the government, imo, that the governor of the central bank had his contract extended during the recent crisis when really he should have been sacked.

    Another thing that needs to come to an end, if we are to prevent future bubbles, is the idea of zoning, i.e. creation of artificial scarcity driving up land prices. It has not led to good use of land in the country as we can all see on a daily basis, but has led to corruption in local authorities.


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    #48
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    really he should have been sacked.

    He should be stripped of his pension , the crook .


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    #49
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    corruption in local authorities.

    never:rolleyes:


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    #50
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    Another thing that needs to come to an end, if we are to prevent future bubbles, is the idea of zoning, i.e. creation of artificial scarcity driving up land prices.

    Too much land was zoned in different parts of the country. In some western counties enough land has been zoned to last for the next 70 years ! In Leitrim 2/3 of houses / apartments already built are unoccupied ....and God only knows what other land has been zoned for development but not yet built on.


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    #51
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Certainly. In his post no. 34 he referred to your post " Our property bubble can not be blamed on any single sector of society -- although I agree that the financial sector, a fairly amorphous group, were more culpable than most other sectors"
    Maceface wrote / replied : ".Me - I blame the politicians. They were elected to govern and there has been a lack of that for a long time.".

    Thank you. I understand now. I asked for the difference between A and B, and you explain the difference between A and C.

    What a waste of time.


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    #52
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Thank you. I understand now. I asked for the difference between A and B, and you explain the difference between A and C.

    What a waste of time.
    No, look at post no. 34, which is the one we are referring to. I am comparing the 2 short statements. I thanked maceface for his as I agree with it.


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    #53
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    No, look at post no. 34, which is the one we are referring to. I am comparing the 2 short statements. I thanked maceface for his as I agree with it.

    Just stop. I am no longer interested.


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    #54
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Too much land was zoned in different parts of the country. In some western counties enough land has been zoned to last for the next 70 years ! In Leitrim 2/3 of houses / apartments already built are unoccupied ....and God only knows what other land has been zoned for development but not yet built on.
    The scarcity I'm talking about was there in the early stages of the boom around the cities. This is why people ended up living in commuter towns 1.5 hours away from work.


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    #55
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    The scarcity I'm talking about was there in the early stages of the boom around the cities. This is why people ended up living in commuter towns 1.5 hours away from work.
    I agree with you there allright. It was very bad planning how people ended up living in commuter towns 1.5 hours away from work, and in my humble opinion may well be unsustainable as fossil fuels dry up etc.


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    #56
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I have just explained why I think that people expected him not to have his finger on the pulse, and your response is to ignore what I said.

    P.Breathnach, why do you carry on in this way? You said what you thought people expected of the regulator. (I think you are wrong but that is your opinion) Jimmmy gave his opinion of what people expected of the regulator (which differed from your opinion). Somehow that becomes an issue for you, finishing with "Just stop. I am no longer interested."


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    #57
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    OMD wrote: »
    P.Breathnach, why do you carry on in this way? You said what you thought people expected of the regulator. (I think you are wrong but that is your opinion) Jimmmy gave his opinion of what people expected of the regulator (which differed from your opinion). Somehow that becomes an issue for you, finishing with "Just stop. I am no longer interested."

    I am not interested in dealing with distortions. Hence, I have no reason to answer your question either.


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    #58
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I am not interested in dealing with distortions. Hence, I have no reason to answer your question either.

    No one distorted anything. You had one opinion. Jimmmy had a different one. Rather than discuss you behave like a spoilt child. A little more adult behaviour would be welcome. Thank You.


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    #59
    Front
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭Front


    niamh4626 wrote: »
    I am a FTB and I bought an apartment in Adamstown in June for €190k, it was initially priced at €350k......:D How do I know it was that price, because I used to work out there for Gunne at the start of time. When I was buying I haggled with the main man himself, he did want €220k for it initially.

    It makes me feel good anyways 'saving' €160k on what my neighbours paid for their apartments plus I rented out my spare room and the tenant is practically paying my mortgage, all I have to put towards it is €11.05/month!!! ;)

    It makes you feel good to see your neighbours being strangled by extreme negative equity.... Lovely. I wouldn't be so smug if I were you... Most of your neighbours in Adamstown probably didn't pay a penny for their apartment and are living there on rent allowance paid by the state. As someone else said things mightn't be as rosy when your tenant moves out and you can't find another suitable one... and when interest rates are triple or more what they are now. Not to mention that half the estate lies empty and in darkness at night. Have you thought as to why you got the apartment for €190k... Alot of people could afford that money for their own home, but don't want to live in a half full, mainly rented future ghetto with half the promised facilities undelivered.


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    #60
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    niamh4626 wrote: »
    I rented out my spare room and the tenant is practically paying my mortgage, all I have to put towards it is €11.05/month!!! ;)

    Of course you're paying income tax on the rent, as its over the limit for the 'rent a room' scheme?


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    #61
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I am not a big fan of developers either, but I suspect most of them right now would love a job that paid 50k a year, flexitime, paid holidays + sickies, guaranteed pension etc.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    I never mentioned the "public sector" - you did.

    Sorry jimmmy, I didn't realise you were talking about the private sector.

    I got the impression you were spamming the board with the above about the public sector.

    Once again, apologies.


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