How to deal with the public sector and the unions

jimmmy

HollyB wrote: »

I don't know if you can claim the dole for a four-day week.

If not, then taking jimmmy's €973/week average public sector salary as correct, putting everybody in the public sector on a four-day week would save €194.60/week for every public sector employee. With 370,000 public sector employees, this would mean a saving of €72 million a week.

That figure of "jimmmy's €973/week average public sector salary " is from the c.s.o. www.cso.ie, no less : I supect the governments own statistics department should know how much they are paying themselves.
Another great area of saving with regard to public service pay is in the area of pensions : people who retired say ten or 15 years ago have pensions tied in to ( i.e. 50% of )todays public service pay rates : many people are earning more as retired public service people than they ever did working.

Deadalus

Well in future if you do not wish me to analyse your posts in such a manner do not start with a rediculous comment like your making this too easy.

I have not experienced this kind of waste of money in my dept. but if it is going anywhere within the public service these days then there should be talk of that in the media. Thats my taxes they are spending on their food. I'm just as annoyed as any private sector worker would be over this.

What kind of function was it that your wife attended. Was it a top level thing or some casual workers lunch? Did it involve foreign diplomats or anything because if not I would expect the media to be going crazy over it and rightly so.

Also Jimmy's post is a good suggestion - its ridiculous to increase a pension after retirement.

Rantan

Deadalus wrote: »

Well in future if you do not wish me to analyse your posts in such a manner do not start with a rediculous comment like your making this too easy.

I have not experienced this kind of waste of money in my dept. but if it is going anywhere within the public service these days then there should be talk of that in the media. Thats my taxes they are spending on their food. I'm just as annoyed as any private sector worker would be over this.

What kind of function was it that your wife attended. Was it a top level thing or some casual workers lunch? Did it involve foreign diplomats or anything because if not I would expect the media to be going crazy over it and rightly so.

Also Jimmy's post is a good suggestion - its ridiculous to increase a pension after retirement.

OK I take back my "your making it easy" easy comment, your right its a bit silly, but do you not think your suggestion that my state of mind has lead to my redundancy despite the blatantly obvious downturn in construction work is a gross insult? I was actually going to ignore it but seeing as you called me on my comment I think you should appologise?

Regarding the meals, wine etc, I'd rather not give specifics but no it did not involve foreign diplomats and was not a casual lunch. It followed a meeting of regional managers and was a totally social occasion. It's just one of several examples recently I have come accross both directly and anecdotedly. I did qualify my statement with the comment I do not believe people like you are not in any way guilty of the same waste. And yes I absolutley agree with you regarding banks wasting money in similar fashions but the title of this thread is "how to deal with public sector and the unions" not banks wasting our money.

Deadalus

Rantan wrote: »

OK I take back my "your making it easy" easy comment, your right its a bit silly, but do you not think your suggestion that my state of mind has lead to my redundancy despite the blatantly obvious downturn in construction work is a gross insult? I was actually going to ignore it but seeing as you called me on my comment I think you should appologise?

Regarding the meals, wine etc, I'd rather not give specifics but no it did not involve foreign diplomats and was not a casual lunch. It followed a meeting of regional managers and was a totally social occasion. It's just one of several examples recently I have come accross both directly and anecdotedly. I did qualify my statement with the comment I do not believe people like you are not in any way guilty of the same waste. And yes I absolutley agree with you regarding banks wasting money in similar fashions but the title of this thread is "how to deal with public sector and the unions" not banks wasting our money.

Fair enough, I take back my comment about your state of mind. It was a comment made in anger and was not warranted.

At least we are finally make some head way and agreeing on areas that people really should be angry about such as taxes being spent on dinners and social events. In my workplace there is no Christmas party this year and I would hope this would be the case across the entire Public Service and any private sector company that received state aid during the recession.

These may not save alot with regards the whole public finance crisis but it should be done out of respect to every single person in this country who pays taxes.

Rantan

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Wow, what an utterly simplified one-sided viewpoint. Systematically destroying the indigenous manufacturing industries to create today's wonders of Canary Wharf and the most extortionate private train companies in Europe. You call that heroic?

And yet, people wonder why the UK lags behind Germany and France today. It's largely because of the above and much more - many people fail to recognise that the UK economy of 60million people has the very same problems today as the Irish one - over-dependence on imports, lack of indigenous manufacturing base, under-resourced vocational education systems, thus becoming highly vulnerable to global market conditions. Yet the French and Germans, already out of recession, are smirking at the British and their half-baked attempts of getting out of the red via 'quantitative easing' i.e. printing more money!

Bigger does not mean better!

yes, I agree totally with this. I believe Ireland being such a small economy in global terms barely qualifies as an economy. We seem incapable of innovating and diversifying to a point where we can cut the chord from multi national pharma's etc etc. Our main recognised global brand is booze(Guiness, baileys) and this is kind of sad. Ryanair employs fewer people here now than before. This has lead in my opinion to an over inflated public service which picks up the slack from the lack of industry to compensate. Our lack of global competiveness is now crippling whatever industries we had who now are relocating to Eastern Europe. Every worker in the country needs to become more competitive, ie lower wages, higher productivity.
My argument with the public sector is that in the private sector, market forces dictate this downward revision whereas public sector unions will cling desperately to current conditions which restricts competiveness and fecks it up for everyone.

dats_right

angrykoala wrote: »

so going by your logic a Garda just has to turn up on day one at templemore and pick up over 60 Grand a year. all gardai do a year with no pay for starters and then start on a basic €26500. a garda with ten years service is nowhere near 60 grand a year. Dont blame gardai who chose this option instead of the quick fast cash and dont think about the future option that the building site worker had. as you say they had a choice.

But as with all public sector workers the basic is only a portion of what they actually get paid. For example with Gardai they would also automatically get €4,100 tax free rent allowance. Then there is the premium payments for working between 6pm - 8am; at time and 1/6th between 6pm and 8pm time and time and 1/4 between 8pm - 8am (which of course they do because of their shift patterns). Then there is the saturday premium and double time on sundays! Then the various allowances, e.g. special duties, boot and uniform, a generous subsistence allowance for attending court, etc. Oh and where are you getting €26,500 from? After 22 weeks on the job they earn €29,792, €31,440 after 1 year, rising to €40,389 basic after just 4 years.. When all these things are added up the poster is quite right at saying it is much nearer a €60k a year job (especially when overtime is factored in!!). And they can retire on a full pension at age 50 and 30 years service and receive 150% final salary as a lump sum and 50% of final salary (index linked) every single year for the rest of their worldy days, even if they live to 100!

Similarly, let us take an example of a primary school teacher starting salary, which is €33,753. But wait there is more.. what about the €5,177 p/a they automatically get for having a 1st, 2nd or even 3rd class hons degree. In reality that is a starting salary of €38,930. Then there is about €1,000 p/a if they supervise the yard once a week and/or teaching through Irish would make another €1,666. And if they are really lucky they could end up in a rural school with only 2 teachers which would earn an additional €3,967 p/a, or if they got one of the many 'special duty posts' = same deal. And after six years their basic would rise to €43,124+ €5,177 (academic allowance).

Oh and that's based on working for a mere 167 days of the year, whereas A.N. Other in the private sector who works 232 days a year (based on 9 public holidays + standard 20 day annual leave+ 104 weekend days a year off) is working nearly 50% more days and probably for less money then the teacher is getting; and that is not even considering the extra 2 or so hours a day most employees have to work over teachers! When you think about what teachers are on as an hourly rate it is astonishing..

And lest not forget the very generous pension entitlements, which the pension levy don't even go near towards covering.. which Gardai and teachers get.

I know lots of friends who are Gardai and teachers alike and they genuinely think that if they were in the private sector they'd be earning a mint. They live in cuckoo land and haven't a clue how much of a premium they are on for working in the public sector. Don't get me wrong both jobs are absolutely vital for the community, but the whole public sector needs to get real and join the rest of us in the real world. Where for those lucky enough to still have jobs, 20-50% wage cuts are a reality and many of us fear going to work everyday whether we'll still be employed next week.

I am no fan of Margaret Thatcher and would actually consider myself a bit of a leftie in economic terms, but you know what, I'm starting to lose any sympathy for the public sector and maybe it is time to take on and break the public sector unions once and for all. I've never voted FF before but would if they show the courage to take on the public sector unions.

Sleazus

HollyB wrote: »

I'd be curious to know how many of those promoting the idea of a 20% pay cut for the public sector would be willing to accept proportionately reduced services.

That's only a valid argument if we accept we're getting value-for-money at the moment.

I don't think a lot of people would accept that we are.

Rantan

dats_right wrote: »

But as with all public sector workers the basic is only a portion of what they actually get paid. For example with Gardai they would also automatically get €4,100 tax free rent allowance. Then there is the premium payments for working between 6pm - 8am; at time and 1/6th between 6pm and 8pm time and time and 1/4 between 8pm - 8am (which of course they do because of their shift patterns). Then there is the saturday premium and double time on sundays! Then the various allowances, e.g. special duties, boot and uniform. Oh and where are you getting €26,500 from? After 22 weeks on the job they earn €29,792, €31,440 after 1 year, rising to €40,389 basic after just 4 years.. When all these things are added up the poster is quite right at saying it is much nearer a €60k a year job (especially when overtime is factored in!!).

Similarly, let us take an example of a primary school teacher starting salary, which is €33,753. But wait there is more.. what about the €5,177 p/a they automatically get for having a 1st, 2nd or even 3rd class hons degree. In reality that is a starting salary of €38,930. Then there is about €1,000 p/a if they supervise the yard once a week and/or teaching through Irish would make another €1,666. And if they are really lucky they could end up in a rural school with only 2 teachers which would earn an additional €3,967 p/a, or if they got one of the many 'special duty posts' = same deal. And after six years their basic would rise to €43,124+ €5,177 (academic allowance).

Oh and that's based on working for a mere 167 days of the year, whereas A.N. Other in the private sector who works 232 days a year (based on 9 public holidays + standard 20 day annual leave+ 104 weekend days a year off) is working 70% more days for less money and that is not even considering the extra 2 or so hours a day most employees have to work over teachers!

And lest not forget the very generous pension entitlements, which the pension levy don't even go near towards covering.. which Gardai and teachers get.

I know lots of friends who are Gardai and teachers alike and they genuinely think that if they were in the private sector they'd be earning a mint. They live in cuckoo land and haven't a clue how much of a premium they are on for working in the public sector. Don't get me wrong both jobs are absolutely vital for the community, but the whole public sector needs to get real and join the rest of us in the real world. Where for those lucky enough to still have jobs, 20-50% wage cuts are a reality and many of us fear going to work everyday whether we'll still be employed next week.

I am no fan of Margaret Thatcher and would actually consider myself a bit of a leftie in economic terms, but you know what, I'm starting to lose any sympathy for the public sector and maybe it is time to take on and break the public sector unions once and for all. I've never voted FF before but would if they show the courage to take on the public sector unions.

Here here, well said, teachers allowances i particular are absolutley crazy. I know a teacher who is struggling with reduced hours but is managing to survive. He spent 10yrs in IT before going back to college to become a teacher. He knows a lot about computers and networks. He offered to maintain the computers in his school for free becasuse he could do it in his sleep and enjoys it. He was rejected because some middle aged teacher was in line for the next additional duty that was avavilable. So she gets the extra money on top of her generous salary for someting she has absolutley no clue how to do while my mate struggles to make ends meet and is prevented from offering his expertise. This is the type of bull that is destroying this country. That couple of grand or two she gets would pay someones dole for a few months. Another example of the exam supervision allowances. I know a young teacher who applied to supervise in his local school this Summer, but was rejected because some retired teacher got the position ahead of him. The guy who got it lived 50miles away so was also able to claim the additional very generous civil service mileage that is avavilable. The young guy lived within a walk of the school. Madness.

RedPlanet

Sleazus wrote: »

That's only a valid argument if we accept we're getting value-for-money at the moment.

I don't think a lot of people would accept that we are.

Damn right.
I have always been very left and supportive of unions but my experiences with the Public Services in this country has unfortunately taken me aback.

While i know state-run services can and do work (in other countries at least) it is long over-due to put these PS unions in their place.
If someone suggests we are getting even a smidgeon of value from our massive investment in the PS; then i'm sorry to say but you are in dire need of opening your eyes and need to spend time in more efficient countries like France or Scandinavia.

Our entire PS system is ultimately a big cash-cow being sucked dry by hordes of layabouts and wasters, most of whom would barely last a week if they had apply themselves in the private sector.
The degree of incompetence and corruption in the PS is just staggering.
I'm sure most of that is being kept from us too.

P. Breathnach

RedPlanet wrote: »

Damn right.
I have always been very left and supportive of unions but my experiences with the Public Services in this country has unfortunately taken me aback.

While i know state-run services can and do work (in other countries at least) it is long over-due to put these PS unions in their place.
If someone suggests we are getting even a smidgeon of value from our massive investment in the PS; then i'm sorry to say but you are in dire need of opening your eyes and need to spend time in more efficient countries like France or Scandinavia.

Our entire PS system is ultimately a big cash-cow being sucked dry by hordes of layabouts and wasters, most of whom would barely last a week if they had apply themselves in the private sector.
The degree of incompetence and corruption in the PS is just staggering.
I'm sure most of that is being kept from us too.

I wonder why people in the public service feel beleaguered.

Rantan

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wonder why people in the public service feel beleaguered.

does any one care?? I'm to mad and angry to give a damn really.

(state of mind failing....failing......faailing.....gooone...loooovely...!!!!!)

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wonder why people in the public service feel beleaguered.

Who cares how they feel, they have only themselves to blaim. They have the highest public service pay in the known world ( 973 euro per week according to the c.s.o. ) , short working hours , guaranteed pension ( comparable to average industrial wage in the USA ) etc etc and yet they march ? Do they not know the state the country is in ( or the country the state is in ? lol )

Moomoo1

Rantan wrote: »

moo moo, unions cannot create the projects that give employment, as work dries up people lose jobs it's a fact union or no union.

No government spending = no contracts = no job.

All a union can really do is fight for better redancy terms. This contractor has shed over 100 jobs in the last 6 months and more to come. Some unionised others like me, not. The union demanded increased redundancy terms and threatened strike which would have lead to closure for the company due to the nature of some of our contracts. The company was forced to pay up which has lead to a serious cash flow problem which in turn has lead to further job loses for office staff like me but what do the unions care?? I think your comment reinforces my opinion "..you just dont get it."

but look at the flipside of the coin. No unions=companies put profits ahead of paying workers a decent wage=companies screw workers every which way. Read 'Germinal' if you don't believe me.

with some smaller companies I take your point, but there are a lot of large companies that can well afford to give better terms but choose not to, in order to maximise profits. And the public sector comes under that bracket imho.

Moomoo1

optocynic wrote: »

There is no money left in Civil Engineering. His redundancy was inevitable unfortunately. Union or not, the money/business was no longer there to continue paying him. It sucks!

then the union should have been able to lobby the government to put the money into civil engineering, surely? They waste enough money as it is on things that don't really benefit anyone...

Moomoo1

Rantan wrote: »

Deadalus wrote: »

I was talking about ways to implement cuts in such a way that the lower paid Public Servants might be able to take and not be left in real trouble financially.


To be perfectly honest moomoo - yes. I'm sorry to say it but if that is what is takes to fix the problem we are in well then absolutely. That is what I mean by you dont get it. If your not feeling pain after a pay cut they havent taken enough in my book. If its cheaper to put 100,000 of you on the dole than pay your salaries it should be done. Social welfare will be cut in the next budget so there will be enough to go around for all of us(tongue in cheek)!! Sorry for sounding crass about it. You say lower paid public servants shouldn;t be left in financial trouble, but if the money is not there to pay you in the first place as we all know its not how can that be possible? My employer and thousands others are in the same position. They cannot pay us therefore we lose our jobs.

And yes I am really angry, and yes I am having a rant, and I intend to spend a lot more ranting over the coming weeks as I will have the time to. But I thought that was the point of a forum like this - I know that is why I registered anyway.

There we are in the 'Germinal'-type situation again. The employer has no money, the 'optimal' wage that his business can pay the workers isn't enough, so the people can just go and starve. Well, no. Not in a civilised 21st century society they can't. Something needs to change here.

Moomoo1

Rantan wrote: »

yes, I agree totally with this. I believe Ireland being such a small economy in global terms barely qualifies as an economy. We seem incapable of innovating and diversifying to a point where we can cut the chord from multi national pharma's etc etc. Our main recognised global brand is booze(Guiness, baileys) and this is kind of sad. Ryanair employs fewer people here now than before. This has lead in my opinion to an over inflated public service which picks up the slack from the lack of industry to compensate. Our lack of global competiveness is now crippling whatever industries we had who now are relocating to Eastern Europe. Every worker in the country needs to become more competitive, ie lower wages, higher productivity.
My argument with the public sector is that in the private sector, market forces dictate this downward revision whereas public sector unions will cling desperately to current conditions which restricts competiveness and fecks it up for everyone.

It's very similar in the UK. And whose fault is this? Maggie's. She destroyed the British industry and left one of the more populated countries in the world dependent largely on the financial manipulations and on the service industry.

My responce to your argument is as follows: why is it that the downward revision happens only at the lower levels? Why is it that the big bosses' packages aren't getting cut? If 'we are in this together', why don't the big bosses go back to the wages they had 50-60 years ago (in % terms relative to the average wage).

I think the solution is simple - back to 98% tax, can't earn more than 250k a year, ban on offshore accounts, you name it. Then let's see if there is really enough money or not to pay people decent wages.

Rantan

Moomoo1 wrote: »

It's very similar in the UK. And whose fault is this? Maggie's. She destroyed the British industry and left one of the more populated countries in the world dependent largely on the financial manipulations and on the service industry.

My responce to your argument is as follows: why is it that the downward revision happens only at the lower levels? Why is it that the big bosses' packages aren't getting cut? If 'we are in this together', why don't the big bosses go back to the wages they had 50-60 years ago (in % terms relative to the average wage).

I think the solution is simple - back to 98% tax, can't earn more than 250k a year, ban on offshore accounts, you name it. Then let's see if there is really enough money or not to pay people decent wages.

I don't completely disagree, on an ethical level you are right but in reality that type of society cannot exist. I don't get your point about big bosses wages 50 or 60 years ago?? were there no multi millionaires in the 1950's
?? and regarding the earlier post re the government just puting more money into civil engineering, where do you propose the government get this money?? Stimulous packages appear beyond the imagination of the current government and they are unable to stop the current financial haemorage.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

Who cares how they feel, they have only themselves to blaim. They have the highest public service pay in the known world ( 973 euro per week according to the c.s.o. ) , short working hours , guaranteed pension ( comparable to average industrial wage in the USA ) etc etc and yet they march ? Do they not know the state the country is in ( or the country the state is in ? lol )

thier like a bunch of obnoxious petultant teenagers who are not only railing against some economic discipline ( that is so unfair , ala kevin from the harry enfield show ) , they want everyone to listen to thier hurt feelings , we need one big huge couch so we can put the entire public sector sitting on it

TCP/IP_King

Rantan wrote: »

...... Every worker in the country needs to become more competitive, ie lower wages, higher productivity.....

That's the wrong model, we need to work smarter not faster. If we compete on wages and productivity we will always be beaten by the next emerging economy. We need to support our indigenous invovators - and there's a lot of smart people out there - instead of pumping billions into a failed / corrupt bank.

Rantan

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

That's the wrong model, we need to work smarter not faster. If we compete on wages and productivity we will always be beaten by the next emerging economy. We need to support our indigenous invovators - and there's a lot of smart people out there - instead of pumping billions into a failed / corrupt bank.

fine, smarter then, but I am not suggesting we try and compete with the likes of China/India etc so of course we have to inovate to diferentiate but we need to do something, quickly.