Toyota quit Formula One

Iron Hide

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_5673055,00.html

Looks like they've cited operating costs as the main reason.

Christ add that with the uncertainty about some of the new teams we might only see 20 cars on the grid again next season..

smooch71

Red Storm wrote: »

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_5673055,00.html

Looks like they've cited operating costs as the main reason.

Christ add that with the uncertainty about some of the new teams we might only see 20 cars on the grid again next season..

So much for them trying to get Raikkonen.

You could be right although it does free up the slot for Sauber now.

I wouldn't be panicking over this. As recently as 2002 there was only 1 works team, Ferrari, and F1 got along just fine with a majority of privateer teams. And to be fair, F1 was becoming a little bit too corporate.

The loss of the works teams may bring it back to its roots.

What would concern me more is that the likes of Honda, Toyota, BMW and inevitably Renault will not be there to supply engines to the privateer teams.

I don't relish the thoughts of a field full of Cosworth powered cars.

Iron Hide

Hopefully these roots wont mean 40 cars turning up to each gp and pre-qualifying on a friday.

Yeah the Cosworth thing is a good point too, could be a case of a choice between Ferrari and Cosworth engines in a few years. Provisionally for next year Lotus, Manor, Campos USF1 and Williams are all Cosworth powered. :S The end maybe nigh......

Coupled with Bridgestone pulling the plug after next year this could be pretty ominous for F1. I thought the sport was about the peak of Motoring technology, how can that be achieved with so few engine and tyre suppliers?? Time for the FIA to really have a look at what needs to be done. Dunlop, Pirelli, Goodyear, Michelin, Bridgestone all have great racing pedigree yet it seems that the FIA deem it a "privelidge" for one of them to supply racing rubber to F1.
In my own case i have Michelin tyres on the car, they won two championships with Renault in 2005/6 so my thinking was " they're F1 tyres seem to be the best in the business ergo they're road tyres can't be that bad"..

Same story with the engines, back in the late 80's early 90's, Honda, Judd, Zakspeed, TAG/Porsche, Renault were all independent suppliers. Granted that Ford did supply 7 or 8 teams but that was due to the DFZ being cheap as chips.

F1 needs private teams and more independent engine suppliers, and i hope to god that theres more than one tyre supplier over the next few years.

hi_sir

no more Kobiyashi was kinda hoping he'd get a run for next year with toyota a see his progression ah id blame it all on the powers that be maybe toyota may head back rallying after all thats where they had their major sucess in the past

smooch71

hi_sir wrote: »

no more Kobiyashi was kinda hoping he'd get a run for next year with toyota a see his progression ah id blame it all on the powers that be maybe toyota may head back rallying after all thats where they had their major sucess in the past

I'd love to see them back in the WRC and maybe with some new rules it might be more attractive to them.

That championship needs some serious shaking up and revival.

Ghost Train

Pity to see this. I guess they can't just run a team without developing their own engines, so it's a big commitment for them to be in f1

Private teams will be important for the future, and hopefully there will be more teams that make it to the grid next year. Pity they never got in a top driver like kimi to give them a better chance.

G-Money

Completely unsurprising. Although it's strange that they were pushing to sign the Iceman. Just as well he didn't agree. I wonder what that means for Kovalainen? He was being rumoured to have a drive there along with Kobayashi.

Although this probably means that the BMW team get Toyota's slot now. Bad news for all the Toyota people though. Hopefully they'll get jobs elsewhere if they need to.

projectmayhem

Wow, I remember when they joined F1 and left WRC to pimp their brand. Bottomless pit of money, aims to beat Ferrari and a few years later they've ditched out.

Not surprising, but sad either way. I liked the team and wanted them to do well. Maybe they can continue in some form or another to supply an engine or something - but it'd be nice to see 'em re-route some of that spending back into WRC

cadaliac

grandmaster wrote: »

Completely unsurprising. Although it's strange that they were pushing to sign the Iceman. Just as well he didn't agree. I wonder what that means for Kovalainen? He was being rumoured to have a drive there along with Kobayashi.

Although this probably means that the BMW team get Toyota's slot now. Bad news for all the Toyota people though. Hopefully they'll get jobs elsewhere if they need to.

Aren't BMW pulling out as well???? I thought I heard that......

EvilMonkey

Give Toyota's spot to Sauber I wont miss them too much. I Feel sorry for the staff though I'm sure most will get work with the new teams.

So which engine plant will McLaren buy BMW, Honda or Toyota?

amacachi

I don't get the "give their spot to Sauber" thing. Surely if Sauber are going to be around next year it'll be in BMW's place?

Looking like a 20, maybe 22 car grid for next year I reckons.

aphex™

Weren't Toyota (and BMW) against cost cutting? All that malarky about FOTA and FIA disputes over costs- then the teams go to the wall. WTF? Could someone explain the reasoning behind all the kicking and screaming there when they ended up going bust anyway? Did Mario Thessian not look at the accounts too often?

I wonder will Mercedes buy Toyota out? It would make better sense than buying Brawn, as Toyota are based in Cologne.

amacachi wrote: »

I don't get the "give their spot to Sauber" thing. Surely if Sauber are going to be around next year it'll be in BMW's place?

Because BMW didn't make an entry for 2010 in time, Sauber don't have one.

amacachi

aphex™ wrote: »

Because BMW didn't make an entry for 2010 in time, Sauber don't have one.

So is 24 the max number of cars there could be on the grid next year?

smokingman

Just hope Kobiyashi has a drive next season now....he was brilliant in his first two GPs.

aphex™

amacachi wrote: »

So is 24 the max number of cars there could be on the grid next year?

Exactly. However there are rumors not all the new teams will get their act together in time to get a car on the grid, so that's where BMW might step in. More info here.

EvilMonkey

aphex™ wrote: »

Weren't Toyota (and BMW) against cost cutting? All that malarky about FOTA and FIA disputes over costs- then the teams go to the wall. WTF? Could someone explain the reasoning behind all the kicking and screaming there when they ended up going bust anyway? Did Mario Thessian not look at the accounts too often?

I wonder will Mercedes buy Toyota out? It would make better sense than buying Brawn, as Toyota are based in Cologne.



Because BMW didn't make an entry for 2010 in time, Sauber don't have one.

All the cost cutting measures implemented to date came from FOTA with Toyota's John Howett as vice president, The FOTA FIA dispute was about the FIA deciding to fundamentally change how things work bring in a budget cap against the wishes of the teams and without consulting the teams.

frostie500

aphex™ wrote: »

Weren't Toyota (and BMW) against cost cutting? All that malarky about FOTA and FIA disputes over costs- then the teams go to the wall. WTF? Could someone explain the reasoning behind all the kicking and screaming there when they ended up going bust anyway? Did Mario Thessian not look at the accounts too often?

Toyota and BMW were not against cost cutting, they were against an FIA imposed budget cap with accountants coming in and monitoring a teams spending. They also were not the only teams to be in opposition to it. Thessian was opposed to it for many reasons but one of the beiggest was that he viewed that the budget caps wouldn't actually save considerable amounts of money. Teams that availed of the cap would have no rev limit, more powerful kers system, unlimited testing, no wind tunnel restrictions(100% scale, unlimited speed etc), 4WD systems and numerous other freedoms. The budget cap was not to include costs for Marketing, saleries for race and test drivers, FIA fines, engine costs(leasing and rebuild), travel costs, tax on television contracts and other deals with FOM. That is why Toyota, BMW, Ferrari, Renault and McLaren all rejected the budget caps-they didnt save you money.

In relation to Toyota they pulled out of F1 because Honda weren't in it anymore, thats the reason they entered the sport. They can call it due to budgetary reasons but they no longer had Honda to compete with so they didn't need to have a raceteam any longer

amacachi wrote: »

So is 24 the max number of cars there could be on the grid next year?

26 cars is the maximun allowed in the Concord Agreement

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

26 cars is the maximun allowed in the Concord Agreement

I know that, but with the BMW team not having made an entry for next year the most there's going to be is 24, and that's if the new teams do get their **** together in time.

frostie500

amacachi wrote: »

I know that, but with the BMW team not having made an entry for next year the most there's going to be is 24, and that's if the new teams do get their **** together in time.

Quadbak is listed as the first alternate/reserve team for an entry into F1 and they will take Toyota's slot

EvilMonkey

Could Toyota still try and sell their slot or have they given it up now? It should be given to Sauber/Qadbak.

FOTA blaming Max/FIA?

Regrettably, notwithstanding Toyota’s commitment to compete until 2012 deriving from the signature of the Concorde Agreement, the particular financial pressures within the car manufacturing industry - together with a period of uncertainty and unnecessary confrontation in F1 that is now finally over - created conditions which have made it difficult for Toyota to stay in the sport at this time.

http://www.teamsassociation.org/press-release/2009-11-04/press-release

Iron Hide

Could Sauber not buy Toyota's slot?

Top Dog

amacachi wrote: »

I know that, but with the BMW team not having made an entry for next year the most there's going to be is 24, and that's if the new teams do get their **** together in time.

Wrong - there's still the possibility of there being 26 cars on the grid. BMW didn't sign the concorde agreement so they gave up their slot to one of the new teams, but once Quadback bought the team they were allocated first reserve spot - team number 14. So with Toyota now leaving Sauber/Quadback can fill their slot and there'll still be 26 cars on the grid (assuming all the other teams make it to the grid next year).

Red Storm wrote: »

Could Sauber not buy Toyota's slot?

Possibly. But since Toyota signed up to the concorde agreement, committing themselves to F1 to 2011 (I think) then the FIA might just give their place to Sauber by means of a punishment/fine for breaching the contract.

thegoth

Top Dog wrote: »

Wrong - there's still the possibility of there being 26 cars on the grid. BMW didn't sign the concorde agreement so they gave up their slot to one of the new teams, but once Quadback bought the team they were allocated first reserve spot - team number 14. So with Toyota now leaving Sauber/Quadback can fill their slot and there'll still be 26 cars on the grid (assuming all the other teams make it to the grid next year).


Possibly. But since Toyota signed up to the concorde agreement, committing themselves to F1 to 2011 (I think) then the FIA might just give their place to Sauber by means of a punishment/fine for breaching the contract.

Not necessarily.

From James Allens Blog. I know he can be a twat, but just forget he is the one giving the facts. He is normally on the ball with facts. Forget about his opinions

"Urgent clarification is now being sought from the Toyota F1 team as to its legal position in relation to the championship. This will have a direct bearing on the admission of any future 13th entry.”
My understanding is that Sauber is being told that Toyota is not going to merely give up its entry. Instead it is examining the possibility of selling the entry, or of John Howett leading a Ross Brawn-style management buyout. The employees of Toyota’s F1 factory in Cologne are being paid up to the end of February."

Guts of it, it that Toyota may do exactly what Honda did and sell the team for a token amount to someone they think can look after the team and employees well

thegoth

Kimi must be kicking himself for not accepting Toyotas offer, and signed a two year deal or something

Imagine he already is being paid by Ferrari for next year

Now he would get paid by Toyota for the next two years as well.

Then signs for McLaren

So for 2010 he is paid by Ferrari, Toyota, and McLaren and for 2011 by McLaren and Toyota

Just imagine . MayBe he would throw a couple of those dollars to his number one fan. The guy who sleeps with a teddy of Kimi beside him every night. Thats right. Boards very own VECTRA

Iron Hide

thegoth wrote: »

Not necessarily.

From James Allens Blog. I know he can be a twat, but just forget he is the one giving the facts. He is normally on the ball with facts. Forget about his opinions

"Urgent clarification is now being sought from the Toyota F1 team as to its legal position in relation to the championship. This will have a direct bearing on the admission of any future 13th entry.”
My understanding is that Sauber is being told that Toyota is not going to merely give up its entry. Instead it is examining the possibility of selling the entry, or of John Howett leading a Ross Brawn-style management buyout. The employees of Toyota’s F1 factory in Cologne are being paid up to the end of February."

Guts of it, it that Toyota may do exactly what Honda did and sell the team for a token amount to someone they think can look after the team and employees well

But didn't Honda provide a little funding to Brawn this year? Or they paid staff or something... AFAIK Honda either waived costs or provided capital to Brawn for this season..

thegoth

Red Storm wrote: »

But didn't Honda provide a little funding to Brawn this year? Or they paid staff or something... AFAIK Honda either waived costs or provided capital to Brawn for this season..

Yes they did. This was because doing so was cheaper than winding down the team. It was their accountants idea as it was the cheapest way to get out of F1. I'd imagine Toyotas accountants would have the same idea, especially since I'd say Toyotas cost would be higher since in F1 longer therefore more redundancy to pay

amacachi

Red Storm wrote: »

But didn't Honda provide a little funding to Brawn this year? Or they paid staff or something... AFAIK Honda either waived costs or provided capital to Brawn for this season..

They provided half the budget they had planned to use themselves, not sure exactly what form that took though.

Iron Hide

thegoth wrote: »

Yes they did. This was because doing so was cheaper than winding down the team. It was their accountants idea as it was the cheapest way to get out of F1. I'd imagine Toyotas accountants would have the same idea, especially since I'd say Toyotas cost would be higher since in F1 longer therefore more redundancy to pay

Surely then something of that sort could be thrashed out between themselves and Sauber. At least Peter Sauber has experience in F1 and will actually make sure the damn team make it to Bahrain, unlike USF1 and Campos who seem to be in the wilderness somewhat. Oh and Manor look good to make next season, but they ain't using a wind tunnel so they'll be crap, echoes of the old MasterCard Lola team about 12 years back...

thegoth

Red Storm wrote: »

Surely then something of that sort could be thrashed out between themselves and Sauber. At least Peter Sauber has experience in F1 and will actually make sure the damn team make it to Bahrain, unlike USF1 and Campos who seem to be in the wilderness somewhat. Oh and Manor look good to make next season, but they ain't using a wind tunnel so they'll be crap, echoes of the old MasterCard Lola team about 12 years back...

What do you mean, do you mean for Peter Sauber to take over the running of the old Toyota team, with its current employees ? That would be a good idea as I dont think he is involved with the investment company that bought BMW.

That still leaves the old BMW team off the grid though for next year

Iron Hide

thegoth wrote: »

What do you mean, do you mean for Peter Sauber to take over the running of the old Toyota team, with its current employees ? That would be a good idea as I dont think he is involved with the investment company that bought BMW.

That still leaves the old BMW team off the grid though for next year

Thought the crowd that bought BMW had called themselves Qadbak Sauber for next year... Either what you say or get the Qadbak crowd to buy whats left of Toyota...

thegoth

Red Storm wrote: »

Thought the crowd that bought BMW had called themselves Qadbak Sauber for next year... Either what you say or get the Qadbak crowd to buy whats left of Toyota...

You could be right. I never heard Saubers name mentioned with Qadbak, but since he already owned 25% of the BMW team, it seems likely he is involved.

Qadbak could buy the Toyota team, but the problem is this. As it stands. they would only run either the old Toyota team, or the old BMW team, not both as there isnt enough room on the grid.

If they wanted to run BMW, they would have to buy the Toyota team, and wind it up immeditely. Trust me. This would not happen. Toyota would build conditions into the contract of sale to insure it would not. Therefore if Qadbak bought Toyota, they would have to wind up the old BMW team, as I really doubt BMW have such a clause in their contact of sale as BMW had not signed the concord agreement when they sold the team, so they were never guarenteed a place on next years grid in the first place

EvilMonkey

Sauber is trying to save his team if Qadbak buy Toyota then 1 lot of employees will still get the bullet. He still owns a % of Sauber.

That's interesting what JA is saying My guess is Toyota will need to sell the team to avoid the penalties for breaking the Concorde agreement.

But the Fia could block this and give the spot to Sauber/Qadbak

Its a bit of a mess to be honest.

Iron Hide

To be fair, and i think i speak for quite a few people here in that a good few of us would love to see the Sauber name on the grid next year....

thegoth

Red Storm wrote: »

To be fair, and i think i speak for quite a few people here in that a good few of us would love to see the Sauber name on the grid next year....

Big +1