EU Court ruling may ban crusifixes in public buildings across Europe.

Run_to_da_hills

"In a decision that could force a review of the use of religious symbols in government-run schools across Europe, the court ordered Italy to pay a euro5,000 ($7,390) fine to a mother in northern Italy who fought for eight years to have crucifixes removed from her children's public school classrooms. The Italian government said it would appeal".

This could have some impact in Ireland as crucifixes and statues are a part of the furniture in public schools and hospitals right across the country. I was never gone to much on graven images however I believe this type of riling could lead us down the slippery slope of freedom of expression. It could in future also ban the use of employees wearing symbolic jewelry in public buildings as it has already in isolated cases in the UK.

The Irony of all this is that archicture of the Barlaymont building in Brussels represents a crucifix with broken arms.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ruling-may-see-crucifixes-ban-in-classrooms-104844.html

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"In a decision that could force a review of the use of religious symbols in government-run schools across Europe, the court ordered Italy to pay a euro5,000 ($7,390) fine to a mother in northern Italy who fought for eight years to have crucifixes removed from her children's public school classrooms. The Italian government said it would appeal".

This could have some impact in Ireland as crucifixes and statues are a part of the furniture in public schools and hospitals right across the country. I was never gone to much on graven images however I believe this type of riling could lead us down the slippery slope of freedom of expression. It could in future also ban the use of employees wearing symbolic jewelry in public buildings as it has already in isolated cases in the UK.

The Ironic thing about all this is that archicture of the Barlaymont building in Brussels represents a crucifix with broken arms.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ruling-may-see-crucifixes-ban-in-classrooms-104844.html

RTDH, how do you define "graven image"? Sounds like you too would like to see these images removed?

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

RTDH, how do you define "graven image"? Sounds like you too would like to see these images removed?

I would define graven images in accordance to Exodus 20:4-6.

Personally I would prefere to see a plain crucifix in a class room representing the rizen Christ rather than some morbid plaster image of a dead body on it.

kelly1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would define graven images in accordance to Exodus 20:4-6.

Personally I would prefere to see a plain crucifix in a class room representing the rizen Christ rather than some morbid plaster image of a dead body on it.

The spirit of Exodus is that we are commandent not to worship or make idols of pictures and statues etc. Only God is to be worshiped.

Personally I don't know of anyone who worships a crucifix. I think it's good to be reminded that Jesus suffered and died for us on the cross and we should never forget this. We need to be reminded that our sins put God on the cross.

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to possess any kind of picture of Jesus? Do you own any pictures of Jesus?

Run_to_da_hills

kelly1 wrote: »

The spirit of Exodus is that we are commandant not to worship or make idols of pictures and statues etc. Only God is to be worshiped.

Unfortunately too many people in Ireland worship and idolize them. One of the main reasons why there is so much nonsense happening around the country today.

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I don't know of anyone who worships a crucifix. I think it's good to be reminded that Jesus suffered and died for us on the cross and we should never forget this. We need to be reminded that our sins put God on the cross.

I would put the Roman Catholic crucifix as probably the most superstitious of all religious symbol throughout the world. People are fearful of it, it is placed beside those that are sick, dying, and over graves of the deceased. Although it may not be "worshiped" is is idolized and people are very eery of it. Our lord speaks to us through his word in scripture and not through a piece of wood and an image crafted by man.

kelly1 wrote: »

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to possess any kind of picture of Jesus? Do you own any pictures of Jesus?

No, they all went out in the garbage about 20 years ago.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This could have some impact in Ireland as crucifixes and statues are a part of the furniture in public schools and hospitals right across the country.

Only a tiny percentage of schools in Ireland are actually public schools. Most are private schools (mostly owned by religious organizations) that receive public funds and teachers. So the chance that it would have much effect here are limited. As the Portmarnock golf verdict today shows private institutions can (rightly) do what they want.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Is it wrong, in your opinion, to possess any kind of picture of Jesus? Do you own any pictures of Jesus?

Were there cameras back then?:pac:

marco_polo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"In a decision that could force a review of the use of religious symbols in government-run schools across Europe, the court ordered Italy to pay a euro5,000 ($7,390) fine to a mother in northern Italy who fought for eight years to have crucifixes removed from her children's public school classrooms. The Italian government said it would appeal".

This could have some impact in Ireland as crucifixes and statues are a part of the furniture in public schools and hospitals right across the country. I was never gone to much on graven images however I believe this type of riling could lead us down the slippery slope of freedom of expression. It could in future also ban the use of employees wearing symbolic jewelry in public buildings as it has already in isolated cases in the UK.

The Irony of all this is that archicture of the Barlaymont building in Brussels represents a crucifix with broken arms.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ruling-may-see-crucifixes-ban-in-classrooms-104844.html

Seriously, without discussing the rights and wrongs of the matter, how many times does it need to be pointed out to you that the European Court of Human Rights is not the European Court of Justice, and therefore not an EU Institution?

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Irony of all this is that archicture of the Barlaymont building in Brussels represents a crucifix with broken arms.

Christianity didn't invent the cross shape. :P

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Christianity didn't invent the cross shape. :P

Its a 'broken cross'. Like The Empire State Building. Ever notice that thats a cross with its crossbeam removed?

NothingMan

I think it is a good thing to see a move to enforce secularism in schools. I don't see anywhere how this will effect Ireland at all. If only Ireland, like Italy already had secular education as the standard.

I don't think anyone should be offended by the removal of religious symbols in a state institution. You can have them all over your home and church or even jewellery if you want. Religious symbols, especially when they are bias towards one particular religion, should have no place in a state institution.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Its a 'broken cross'. Like The Empire State Building. Ever notice that thats a cross with its crossbeam removed?

Isn't that an end time's conspiracy theory (the broken cross is the sign of the antichrist)?

prinz

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"In a decision that could force a review of the use of religious symbols in government-run schools across Europe, ......

Old news. AFAIK this is already law across most of the EU Member States. Has been for years.

Plowman

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JimiTime

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe i should have added a smilie to my post;) I'm mocking the whole, the building is shaped like a 'broken' cross. Seeing things that are innocuous and creating conspiracy around it.

Jesus Wept

This would be great and a step forward.

Plowman

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Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

Its a 'broken cross'. Like The Empire State Building. Ever notice that thats a cross with its crossbeam removed?

By Jove! You're right.


I guess the only answer is "c'est la vie". I don't see any solid argument for the idea that Christianity should enjoy special or exclusive representation in public buildings. There might be exceptions - for example, a patient in hospital might want something close to their bed or some such - but all in all I think that it is only fair in a pluralist society to have blank walls. Of course, my opinion comes with the proviso that public expression of faith in God(s) isn't similarly seen as a thing to be removed.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't that an end time's conspiracy theory (the broken cross is the sign of the antichrist)?

First I've heard of it tbh Don't think such a thing is biblical anyway.

PDN

To be consistent they should also ban schools from referring to days of the week as Wednesday Thursday and Friday. Why should non-pagans be subjected to daily exposure to the names of the gods Woden, Thor and Frigga?

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

NothingMan

PDN wrote: »

To be consistent they should also ban schools from referring to days of the week as Wednesday Thursday and Friday. Why should non-pagans be subjected to daily exposure to the names of the gods Woden, Thor and Frigga?

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Deal, wednesday Thursday and Friday shall hence forth be known as monday 2, poker night, and Drinking day!

To be fair, I have no issues with a lot of religious details. They are part of our history, culture and language. And my lack of belief isn't so fundamental that I want to abolish my heritage and half the english language.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe i should have added a smilie to my post;) I'm mocking the whole, the building is shaped like a 'broken' cross. Seeing things that are innocuous and creating conspiracy around it.

I'm confused

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

To be consistent they should also ban schools from referring to days of the week as Wednesday Thursday and Friday. Why should non-pagans be subjected to daily exposure to the names of the gods Woden, Thor and Frigga?

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

He said Frigga ...

Anyway your point might hold if people were calling for crosses in general to be abolished (like some black Americans objected to the terms Master and Slave being used in computer hardware) rather than people call for an actual church object being removed from a public school. The difference being that a cross in of itself does not demonstrate the religious bias of a school but a Christian cross does.

Xluna

PDN wrote: »

To be consistent they should also ban schools from referring to days of the week as Wednesday Thursday and Friday. Why should non-pagans be subjected to daily exposure to the names of the gods Woden, Thor and Frigga?

What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.

They tried it during the French revolution.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.