Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Vic_08

devnull wrote: »

As posted here before, could Aircoach not pursue Patton through the courts now they have started service and are illegally touting for business at Aircoach's stops?

If the Go-Bus v Citylink farce of a court case is anyting to go on it is hardly worth the effort. The legal licenced operator here was the clear loser financially and despite a judgement supporting them Go-Bus are still losing out to a now licenced competitor whose actions should have prevented them receiving any further licences in a country not run by corrupt, incompetent jokers.

I would expect Aircoach will push the DoT to deal with Patton but I can't imagine they are expecting any useful outcome.

devnull

I think the whole thing points to the fact that as within many areas of this country, the Government and the DOT need to get their house in order, the citylink case was indeed a farce, and against all common sense what happened in the end, in a service they were openly advertising, but I read they could only prosecute them for the days that someone was on the coach to prove that they indeed did break the license, which is ridiculous when they are openly advertising it for months.

The fact that Patton is still allowed to operate DESPITE the fact he is entirely illegal is embarrassing quite frankly for the country, as it shows just how far off the ball the government and the department of transport are when it comes to managing their own affairs with regard to legal operators - if Patton is not going to be punished, what stops me and my friends clubbing together for a bus and operating a service without a license.

After all, if there are no penalties and no punishments to Patton for breaking the law no doubt someone else will have a go seeing as nobody is dealing with the actual problem.

AlekSmart

Surely if the department were going to take him to court they would have done so by now? The fact they haven't indicates that there is a reason for this.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect to this is the fact that the Department of Transport reported this case directly to the Gardai at the highest level.

It then appears that the Gardai spent a period of time considering what course of action to take before reverting to the Department with a request for the "Clarification of certain issues".

It rather deprives the ordinary punter of any great faith in ringing 112/999 to report stuff.....:)

As for the service itself I`d be confident that First-Aircoach will run this for as long as it takes and if it`s as well operated as their other Airport connections it will be the predominant operator on the route.....which,of course will cause new problems for the Department who absolutely abhor dominance even when it results in good customer service !!!

devnull

Patton has set a new boycott group up:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Boycott-the-Aircoach-from-Dun-Laoghaire-in-favour-of-the-Patton-Flyer/118621304828041?ref=ts

I wonder if he is going to state that the old age pensioners and people with families should boycott it as well and pay well over the odds?

Cookie_Monster

devnull wrote: »

Patton has set a new boycott group up:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Boycott-the-Aircoach-from-Dun-Laoghaire-in-favour-of-the-Patton-Flyer/118621304828041?ref=ts

I wonder if he is going to state that the old age pensioners and people with families should boycott it as well and pay well over the odds?

someone should setup a counter group to boycott him and his stupid facebook page :mad:

devnull

I was tempted to register and post the reasons why you should use Aircoach and not the Patton flyer, but I didn't want to stir it up and to be identified!

dub_commuter

The facts are local people very strongly as I have been trying to tell all you guys, I honestly cannot see Aircoach winning whilst Patton is still there, and this is a show of how strong people feel.

They believe Patton's spin and will keep using them, even to the extent now where they are leaving two hours earlier because of his lack of services, paying fares when they don't need to and wasting money.

At the end of the day this morning people who arrive at Aircoach stops are being intimidated by Patton's drivers and staff who convince the very few passengers who were interested in the Aircoach service off.

Cookie_Monster

dub_commuter wrote: »

The facts are local people very strongly as I have been trying to tell all you guys, I honestly cannot see Aircoach winning whilst Patton is still there, and this is a show of how strong people feel.

time to get the Guards to impound his coaches then. If they are threatening or intimidating potential Aircoach passengers something definitely needs to be done.

I almost wish I need to get to the airport so I could stand there and tell them to "Fuck off, I'm waiting for the Aircoach"

devnull

The Aircoach service is departing from the Arrivals Road with their other Dublin City services, the Patton one is from the coach park.

How Patton is allowed to stop in the coach park when he is illegal I have no idea.

Cookie_Monster

devnull wrote: »

How Patton is allowed to stop in the coach park when he is illegal I have no idea.

because once the DAA get paid they couldn't care less who parks where

dub_commuter

At the end of the day, as I have been saying, and I think Patton is a disgrace, he knows that he can do whatever he wants, after all he has for the last few years and nobody has done anything about it, so he is just extending that, he has the people on his side, the locals are all boycotting the legal service, at the end of the day he is pretty happy as until the department due something this does not really effect him one bit as he has brainwashed everyone else into thinking exactly what they are now as Aircoach as the enemy.

His master plan is like I said before, to keep operating as nobody will do anything or is too spineless to order him off the roads, take all the customers, force Aircoach to pull out, then apply for the license himself, I know that may not be what some people on here want to hear but that seems to be very much his plan.

Why is he going to fear actions from intimidation? He is stopping in the airport without permission, operating a service without a license, stopping at stops which are not health and safety approved, stealing customers, and the result of a department and criminal investigation by the Garda, and nobody has done anything so far so why would they do so about intimidation.

devnull

Unfortunately I sense this too - Patton knows the law have been very lax with him to date therefore he is pushing and crossing the boundaries very often, the question is how far will he push them before it is too far and it triggers some action? Lets hope someone takes action before it gets too much of a dirty war.

Cookie_Monster

Now that Aircoach have buses on the route they may take action. Who know they may even catch some of this customer stealing and intimidation on the on board cameras as evidence.

devnull

Maybe they will - although the problem is their name is being blackened and the longer the incorrect message from Patton is allowed to spread, there will be lots of support generating and outrage from TD's in the area and pressure on the DoT to give in.

What makes me laugh on Patton's side is he is moaning that Taxi's are stealing his customers and this is illegal?

Talk about irony.

paulm17781

devnull wrote: »

Maybe they will - although the problem is their name is being blackened and the longer the incorrect message from Patton is allowed to spread, there will be lots of support generating and outrage from TD's in the area and pressure on the DoT to give in.

I assume people from Dalkey have friends from outside Dalkey. I've rarely heard a bad thing said about Aircoach and I'm sure it won't take long before Patton's followers end up using the nicer service.

dub_commuter

You have to remember about Patton, it is not about telling the truth, it is about pouring out a hard luck story about the British company who don't pay into the Irish economy crushing the innovative small guy and how the law is against anyone who is Irish and promotes multi-nationals.

What he is pouring out via his website and facebook groups give off this image, and it is this which he is selling to his customers who are believing it and why wouldn't you, on the face of it, it seems a rather good argument rather than the illegal racket it is.

As I said, I don't see Aircoach winning this one.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

The facts are local people very strongly as I have been trying to tell all you guys, I honestly cannot see Aircoach winning whilst Patton is still there, and this is a show of how strong people feel.

They believe Patton's spin and will keep using them, even to the extent now where they are leaving two hours earlier because of his lack of services, paying fares when they don't need to and wasting money.

At the end of the day this morning people who arrive at Aircoach stops are being intimidated by Patton's drivers and staff who convince the very few passengers who were interested in the Aircoach service off.

Some people in the Dalkey/Glasthule/Dun Laoghaire area support Patton and are refusing to use Aircoach. Not necessarily all.

Posts such as this are just pandering to those who are rabble rousing.

Please stop insinuating that everyone in the Dalkey/Glasthule/Dun Laoghaire area is against Aircoach as I don't believe that they are. All you are doing here is repeatedly regurgitating the nonsense that Patton is putting out and giving it an even wider audience than it deserves (whether you agree with it or not).

From the posts that you are putting up it would suggest that you are watching every departure and every stop. How can you possibly be aware of everything that is going on?

It is only the start of Aircoach operations on the route. To start implying immediate failure is to say the least disingenuous.

This will play out over months and certainly not two days into the operation.

dub_commuter

I am not saying everyone - just I have seen it happen when going past on the few occasions when I have been past there so I wouldn't be surprised it was happening on other occasions as well because if they are saying stuff to possible aircoach passengers once they would most likely do it again.

I think we will all agree though if the department got it's house in order none of us would be having this discussion now.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

I am not saying everyone - just I have seen it happen when going past on the few occasions when I have been past there so I wouldn't be surprised it was happening on other occasions as well because if they are saying stuff to possible aircoach passengers once they would most likely do it again.

I think we will all agree though if the department got it's house in order none of us would be having this discussion now.

That may be - but the tone of your posts above (as I read them) suggests that everyone is against Aircoach and that every departure is being affected.

This patently is not the case.

There is a hell of a difference between posting one off observations and posting comments suggesting mass civil disobedience. You can't simply imply that its happening to every departure from one-off observations.


I think an element of reality needs to be brought to the situation. Yes there are people against Aircoach, but to suggest mass hysteria as those posts do against them is really going over the top.

jpfahy

This route to the Airport was Trevor Patton's idea. The Patton Flyer has provided a fantastic service for the people of Dalkey/Glasthule/DunLaoghaire for the last couple of years due to his enterpreneurship. He deserves credit for this.

The Licence debacle was caused by Fianna Fail Government incompetence. Just like the Ryanair Hanger 6 mess, Government Ministers did nothing to save local jobs, shame on Ministers Hanafin and Dempsey who were asked to help and did nothing. Can you believe or trust this Government??

Senator Eugene Regan tried to intervene to help the Patton Flyer by appealing to Europe. This is the same man who exposed Willie O'Dea and got that fool removed from Government. If he supports Trevor that's a recommendation for me.

I know whose side I'm on in this argument - Trevor Patton

Reading this thread you would think Trevor Patton was some type of con man. No wonder the country is the way it is when people cannot see past spin.

Cookie_Monster

jpfahy wrote: »

This route to the Airport was Trevor Patton's idea. The Patton Flyer has provided a fantastic service for the people of Dalkey/Glasthule/DunLaoghaire for the last couple of years due to his entrepreneurship. He deserves credit for this.

I doubt it was his idea first, there were plenty of other airport routes before. he just copied them.

jpfahy wrote: »

The Licence debacle was caused by Fianna Fail Government incompetence. Just like the Ryanair Hanger 6 mess, Government Ministers did nothing to save local jobs, shame on Ministers Hanafin and Dempsey who were asked to help and did nothing. Can you believe or trust this Government??

He was offered a licence and refused it for reasons known only to himself.

jpfahy wrote: »

I know whose side I'm on in this argument - Trevor Patton

fair enough

jpfahy wrote: »

Reading this thread you would think Trevor Patton was some type of con man. No wonder the country is the way it is when people cannot see past spin.

he is conning people out of money by increasing his fairs, not allowing child fairs, not providing OAPs free travel, getting rid of return tickets.. he's conning Aircoach out of revenue by illegally operating a service on their licences route and harassing their passengers. he's conning the locals by posting false information and defamatory remarks in the local area, on-line and even on beer mats. He conned people into voting for him to be a councillor on the basis he would be fighting against a legal operator on the route that he was running an unlicensed service on and not making it clear he refused a licence to operate.

Ham'nd'egger

jpfahy wrote: »

This route to the Airport was Trevor Patton's idea. The Patton Flyer has provided a fantastic service for the people of Dalkey/Glasthule/DunLaoghaire for the last couple of years due to his enterpreneurship. He deserves credit for this.

If Patton had actually applied for this route first, he'd actually have received a route licence for it first in spite of his crocodile tears and accusations about lost applications etc. He is free to apply for routes all over the city to run alternative routes should he wish to yet he hasn't. Nobody is saying his service wasn't good but in fairness this can't justify his position.

jpfahy wrote: »

The Licence debacle was caused by Fianna Fail Government incompetence. Just like the Ryanair Hanger 6 mess, Government Ministers did nothing to save local jobs, shame on Ministers Hanafin and Dempsey who were asked to help and did nothing. Can you believe or trust this Government??

The Licence regime is at fault for many things but it doesn't make Patton get behind the wheel of a bus and drive it contrary to the Law. Besides, I doubt if Patton would employ any more people than Aircoach so that argument doesn't hold up.

jpfahy wrote: »

Senator Eugene Regan tried to intervene to help the Patton Flyer by appealing to Europe. This is the same man who exposed Willie O'Dea and got that fool removed from Government. If he supports Trevor that's a recommendation for me.

And did he succeed?

jpfahy wrote: »

I know whose side I'm on in this argument - Trevor Patton

I know who's side the Law is on and it's not Patton.

jpfahy wrote: »

Reading this thread you would think Trevor Patton was some type of con man. No wonder the country is the way it is when people cannot see past spin.

The only guy with the spin on this is Patton; read through the thread from top to bottom and see how his position and attitude have changed over the few years and tell us that he isn't playing any con trick.

devnull

jpfahy wrote: »

This route to the Airport was Trevor Patton's idea. The Patton Flyer has provided a fantastic service for the people of Dalkey/Glasthule/DunLaoghaire for the last couple of years due to his enterpreneurship. He deserves credit for this.

Unfortunately the problem I believe with him not getting a license is he did not want to stop at just Glasthule, Dun Laoghaire, Monkstown and Dalkey, he wanted to stop at other stops as well, which were at that pointed served by Aircoach.

Under the department of transport process that every operator in the country has to go by and all have adhered to, and Aircoach themselves have put up with for years, he would only be offered a license that stopped at the stops which are currently unserved by another operator to the airport.

Patton was offered a license for the stops in Dalkey, Monkstown, and Dun Laoghaire but not calling at the stops already served, but he TURNED IT DOWN. He said he wanted a license which allowed him to stop at the other stops which are already served by the Aircoach Greystones route.

You may then ask that why can Aircoach stop at these stops? Aircoach is allowed to as they would not be using the route to push out any competition as it is only their own services that already serve these stops, these are the basic principles which have dictated bus services for the last god knows how many issues.

Patton had the chance to provide a service to Dalkey and Glasthule etc, but he didn't want this, as he wanted the other stops which he was never going to get. All the other operators are not allowed to poach other operators passengers like this, Patton may not like it, but his is the rules, and everyone else bar him has kept to them.

Reading this thread you would think Trevor Patton was some type of con man. No wonder the country is the way it is when people cannot see past spin.

The only person spinning is Patton.

dynamick

How can the department of transport excuse themselves for taking years to decide on a licence application for a bus route? This seems to be their standard behaviour as on the Swords express. It shouldn't take more than a fortnight.

Trevor Patton is not the villain of this piece, at least he was providing a useful service that people wanted through his hard work and capital, even if he was in breach of a regulation and punished with a small fine. The civil service left an area unserved by public transport through gross and unpunishable laziness.

I hope the new NTA licensing structure is an improvement.

KC61

jpfahy wrote: »

This route to the Airport was Trevor Patton's idea. The Patton Flyer has provided a fantastic service for the people of Dalkey/Glasthule/DunLaoghaire for the last couple of years due to his enterpreneurship. He deserves credit for this.

The Licence debacle was caused by Fianna Fail Government incompetence. Just like the Ryanair Hanger 6 mess, Government Ministers did nothing to save local jobs, shame on Ministers Hanafin and Dempsey who were asked to help and did nothing. Can you believe or trust this Government??

Senator Eugene Regan tried to intervene to help the Patton Flyer by appealing to Europe. This is the same man who exposed Willie O'Dea and got that fool removed from Government. If he supports Trevor that's a recommendation for me.

I know whose side I'm on in this argument - Trevor Patton

Reading this thread you would think Trevor Patton was some type of con man. No wonder the country is the way it is when people cannot see past spin.

I would not disagree with the sentiment that the licencing process is a debacle. It is a total mess.

However, Aircoach are also an innocent party as they played by the rules.

And as for Hangar 6. Well there were Irish jobs saved there - there are 230 staff employed by Aer Lingus there every day maintaining their fleet that would otherwise be out of a job. People seemed to conveniently ignore that fact, preferring to believe a lot of spin from Michael O'Leary.

It is not always the case that he who shouts loudest is necessarily right.

Cookie_Monster

dynamick wrote: »

How can the department of transport excuse themselves for taking years to decide on a licence application for a bus route? This seems to be their standard behaviour as on the Swords express. It shouldn't take more than a fortnight.

regardless that does not act as justification for his (or anyone elses) actions

dynamick wrote: »

Trevor Patton is not the villain of this piece, at least he was providing a useful service that people wanted through his hard work and capital, even if he was in breach of a regulation and punished with a small fine. The civil service left an area unserved by public transport through gross and unpunishable laziness.
I hope the new NTA licensing structure is an improvement.

there is plenty of public transport in the area, just none to the airport direct. Patton is the villain, he stealing custom and revenue from Aircoach and ripping people off with higher fares than they provide. He's flouting legislation that everyone else has to abide by any costing us all in wasted time of Gardai and public servant to deal with him continually.

DalkeyResident

I was highlighted today about the disgusting acts by the BRITISH company who is trying to shift our local operator off the route and find it disgusting what is going on and it is a pure case of the government support the multinationals over our country when it is in need. All of our money is going to these big corporate giants in the UK rather than back into our economy.

I am fully behind any campaign to get Aircoach removed from a route which they stole from Trevor, who built it up himself, only to be discriminated against by a department of transport who are no doubt giving special treatment to the multinationals.

The facts are the system is broke and Patton made a change to put the residents first and the people in my area ahead of the people with vested interests. I can only condone that the people on here are affilated with Aircoach as they are indefensible,

At the end of the day Dalkey is an affluent area for most and we are proud to be Irish in in Dalkey, and we will always support local businesses even if it means paying a bit more I believe it is worth it. I think the facebook group set up by Patton is a great idea and will be recommending it to all my friends, who do not want local innovation to be hampered by what is bully boy tactics.

I see posts about Intimidation? Well if I worked for Patton and see people at Aircoach stops I would put them straight and not just leave them there and tell them the true story, if somebody says that is intimidation then I worry where society has got to as telling someone the truth is not intimidation.

I am proud to be Irish and will always defend us against other groups, the fact that this is the country that split our once great country up is now trying to steal money from our economy tells you all you need to know.

paulm17781

dynamick wrote: »

The civil service left an area unserved by public transport through gross and unpunishable laziness.

I didn't know Dalkey was unserved by public transport! This weekend I may take a DART or bus out to see for myself.

KC61

DalkeyResident wrote: »

I was highlighted today about the disgusting acts by the BRITISH company who is trying to shift our local operator off the route and find it disgusting what is going on and it is a pure case of the government support the multinationals over our country when it is in need. All of our money is going to these big corporate giants in the UK rather than back into our economy.

I am fully behind any campaign to get Aircoach removed from a route which they stole from Trevor, who built it up himself, only to be discriminated against by a department of transport who are no doubt giving special treatment to the British companies.

The facts are the system is broke and Patton made a change to put the residents first and the people in my area ahead of the people with vested interests. I can only condone that the people on here are affilated with Aircoach as they are indefensible,

At the end of the day Dalkey is an affluent area for most and we are proud to be Irish in in Dalkey, and we will always support local businesses even if it means paying a bit more I believe it is worth it. I think the facebook group set up by Patton is a great idea and will be recommending it to all my friends, who do not want local innovation to be hampered by what is bully boy tactics.

I see posts about Intimidation? Well if I worked for Patton and see people at Aircoach stops I would put them straight and not just leave them there and tell them the true story, if somebody says that is intimidation then I worry where society has got to as telling someone the truth is not intimidation.

I think that you are being slightly disengenuous in that Aircoach whilst owned by a UK company (First Group), is an Irish registered company, paying Irish taxes and employing Irish staff.

I have no relationship with any of the parties involved here except as a long term observer of the Irish transport sector.

Trevor Patton did not want to play by the rules, turned down a licence, and decided to do his own thing regardless. Aircoach did play by the rules and got a licence.

devnull

dynamick wrote: »

How can the department of transport excuse themselves for taking years to decide on a licence application for a bus route? This seems to be their standard behaviour as on the Swords express. It shouldn't take more than a fortnight.

The licensing regime is a pain for sure and benefits nobody, be that customers or operators, but the rules are applied pretty equally in a case by case basis and many other operators have had to experience the same kind of wait, but have not decided to break the law.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

I was highlighted today about the disgusting acts by the BRITISH company who is trying to shift our local operator off the route and find it disgusting what is going on and it is a pure case of the government support the multinationals over our country when it is in need. All of our money is going to these big corporate giants in the UK rather than back into our economy.

I am fully behind any campaign to get Aircoach removed from a route which they stole from Trevor, who built it up himself, only to be discriminated against by a department of transport who are no doubt giving special treatment to the multinationals.

The facts are the system is broke and Patton made a change to put the residents first and the people in my area ahead of the people with vested interests. I can only condone that the people on here are affilated with Aircoach as they are indefensible,

At the end of the day Dalkey is an affluent area for most and we are proud to be Irish in in Dalkey, and we will always support local businesses even if it means paying a bit more I believe it is worth it. I think the facebook group set up by Patton is a great idea and will be recommending it to all my friends, who do not want local innovation to be hampered by what is bully boy tactics.

I see posts about Intimidation? Well if I worked for Patton and see people at Aircoach stops I would put them straight and not just leave them there and tell them the true story, if somebody says that is intimidation then I worry where society has got to as telling someone the truth is not intimidation.

I am proud to be Irish and will always defend us against other groups, the fact that this is the country that split our once great country up is now trying to steal money from our economy tells you all you need to know.

Aircoach pay Irish taxes and employ Irish staff and have Irish management and pay Irish fuel duty etc, so I can't see where the argument of them giving money to the UK comes into it, it is merely a smokescreen created which is not true.

The ironic thing is that posts like these annoy me - Aircoach have done nothing wrong and played by the rules but people seem to blame them, where if you read through this thread, you will see that Patton himself turned down a license, in which if he would have accepted the conditions of, he would serve indeed Dalkey and other areas on the route. Then there would be no Aircoach Dalkey service.

The bigger picture here is, that the new Aircoach service provides a more regular, round the clock service with discounted fares for airport staff, children, concessionary pass holders and return trips - now to me that is something to be pleased about, particuarly when you bear in mind Patton has cut his service back!