Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Run_to_da_hills

I saw the Patton passing through Dunlaoghaire this morning with Aircoach about 20 yards behind it. Are they following in the same footsteps as DB? Ie travelling in pairs.

patrickbrophy18

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I saw the Patton passing through Dunlaoghaire this morning with Aircoach about 20 yards behind it. Are they following in the same footsteps as DB? Ie travelling in pairs.

Was there anyone on the Aircoach bus or was The Patton Flyer carrying them all?

Ham'nd'egger

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Was there anyone on the Aircoach bus or was The Patton Flyer carrying them all?

They were on the Aircoach as Patton's bus was full with grudges;)

Run_to_da_hills

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Was there anyone on the Aircoach bus or was The Patton Flyer carrying them all?

I could only see on the driver side of the patton as I was on motorbike travelling in the oposite direction, It looked empty, Aircoach had about 10 skulls.

I also noticed that patton is throwing in an aditional service, ie Pick up at Killiney Castle.

foggy_lad

people will go for the one that suits them best and that will be aircoach with their child fares and cheaper return fares etc, nobody likes a moaner anymore and that is all patton seems to be.

devnull

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I saw the Patton passing through Dunlaoghaire this morning with Aircoach about 20 yards behind it. Are they following in the same footsteps as DB? Ie travelling in pairs.

The Aircoach is running legally, the Patton bus is not, so you'll have to blame him for that.

Seems they are using Setra's rather than triaxles from what I have seen, or has anyone seen differently?

Rock Steady Edy

Anyone had an opportunity to try the Dalkey Aircoach service yet?

I note at the bus-stops that all the stops are listed that overlap the Greystones route (ie between Blackrock and the port tunnel). I thought Patton said that he was only offered the route on the basis that he could only stop at Blackrock / Monkstown / Dun Laoghaire / Glasthule and Dalkey?

KC61

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

Anyone had an opportunity to try the Dalkey Aircoach service yet?

I note at the bus-stops that all the stops are listed that overlap the Greystones route (ie between Blackrock and the port tunnel). I thought Patton said that he was only offered the route on the basis that he could only stop at Blackrock / Monkstown / Dun Laoghaire / Glasthule and Dalkey?

Indeed he was, as, in the DoT view, that service would conflict with Aircoach's Greystones service.

In this case the two licences are held by the same company so conflict does not arise.

Rock Steady Edy

I see ... and what about the fact that Patton said that he was told he had to operate every 30 mins between 4am and midnight, when Aircoach are only half-hourly 3am to 8am?

Ham'nd'egger

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

I see ... and what about the fact that Patton said that he was told he had to operate every 30 mins between 4am and midnight, when Aircoach are only half-hourly 3am to 8am?

You would then be going on Patton's word for that if that is the case.

DalkeyResident

What a load of tosh that is spoken on this board about Patton, it really is a disgrace when the people on here are supporting a foreign country who invaded us and stole our land against our own private enterprises.I read this on the facebook page of Patton today, a true vision of exactly what this dispicable Aircoach company are doing, they are causing pollution, causing our plants to die and our children not to sleep, just so some greedy suits can make money and exploit Ireland and now I read they are being taken to court by them? Surely it should be the other way around?

A big ugly bus stop suddenly appeared outside my house on Hyde Road and now we have big ugly blue Aircoaches parked there and running engines all day and all night, just look at the timetable and see that Aircoach runs every half hour, which effectively means that no sooner has one gone than another appears. A young woman arrived at my door the other day, she has just had another baby and she was nearly in tears from lack of sleep, next day another young woman arrived complaining about her lack of sleep.

I have been out to Aircoach as often as I am able and have asked them to turn off the engines - my house is trembling from the vibrations.I bought this house 11 years ago because it was a nice quiet road and we had a view of the public park - well first I noticed we got a lot of lorries parking outside the park, after many complaints to the police this has stopped a little, then we got huge illegal parking in the middle of the road for The Cuala and Dalkey United. What would happen if an ambulance tried to get to one of the resident's houses?

Then we got flood lighting which is supposed to be turned off at 10 pm and of course it it not. And then the Council started to use the car parking spaces as a builder's yard, this went on for three weeks with earth movers working all day. Now we have turned into a Bus station. The noise of the engines is one thing, but the fumes! is it environmentally ok to leave your engine running for that long and is it legal to plan a airport bus terminus on a residential road. Bet it would not happen outside the Minister's house!!! Now we also have people parking outside our house taking up the parking spaces we need (these are small semi-detached bungalows with shared driveways)while they wait for the arrival or departure of airport buses and we even get people with Dalkey parking tickets leaving their cars here for weeks on end while they go on their holidays.

Add to all this the noise and the litter and broken glass from the drunks coming out of the social events in the Cuala in the late evenings and the leaving certificate celebrators going on holidays who take off their clothes and break bottles at 6am waking up everyone on the street while they wait for the airport coach.There is a ready made bus stop at the village end of Hyde Road, why could this not be utilised? This was suggested by the Patton Flyer airport bus, a small quiet bus which did not leave its engines running or park in the same place all the time, they also did not run all night or every half hour. Add to this the fact that they are and Irish company and Aircoach has a UK based parent company, can anyone tell me what our Dun Laoire Rathdown Co. Council and Government are thinking of - ruining so many peoples' lives. And don't say "move house" to me - who would buy a house in a bus station??????

Please use the Patton Flyer bus to and from the airport, we have no objections to it. Support an Irish company and don't let us be bullied by Aircoach and our government. Try to make our voices heard, stop them ignoring the "little people" like they always do in Ireland

dub_commuter

This is simply the way many people feel in Dalkey, Aircoach is destroying the Town and is a big evil multi-national corporation who does not care about it's residents and its making life hell for everyone. It is not the way I see it but local residents feel very strongly and one in particular is so annoyed with the bus stop outside her house she may consider removing it.

From Patton's Facebook group:
Latest News: The Flyer is still running. Please support us now if you can. Aircoach/FirstGroup have begun legal proceedings against The Flyer to try and put us off the road. RIP private enterprise and local business.

KD345

DalkeyResident wrote: »

it really is a disgrace when the people on here are supporting a foreign country who invaded us and stole our land against our own private enterprises.

No, what is a disgrace is to have an individual think he can ignore all laws and operate a bus service illegally.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

they are causing pollution, causing our plants to die and our children not to sleep, just so some greedy suits can make money and exploit Ireland and now I read they are being taken to court by them? Surely it should be the other way around?

All bus stops must have approval from the Gardai. If the stop is approved and safe then I don't see the problem.

I must say that letter by the Dalkey resident just reads like a rant about everything. If it's not an "ugly blue Aircoach" it's a problem with lorries, flood lighting, football parking, builders, leaving cert students, etc.

This is a public road. The person parked waiting for a bus to arrive has just as much a right to be there as the person who bought a house with no driveway and wants to park outside. It's strange, most people would be delighted to have a frequent, reliable bus service to the airport. Some would see it as adding value to their community. If the noise levels are above the acceptable levels then they can be stopped, but all over Dublin there are bus stops, some with a frequency far greater than the Aircoach.

The comments on Irish vs. UK companies are both insulting and unnecessary. The suggestion that we should somehow boycott a company employing Irish people and operating legally simply because they're British is plain wrong.

patrickbrophy18

DalkeyResident wrote: »

What a load of tosh that is spoken on this board about Patton, it really is a disgrace when the people on here are supporting a foreign country who invaded us and stole our land against our own private enterprises.I read this on the facebook page of Patton today, a true vision of exactly what this dispicable Aircoach company are doing, they are causing pollution, causing our plants to die and our children not to sleep, just so some greedy suits can make money and exploit Ireland and now I read they are being taken to court by them? Surely it should be the other way around?



Please use the Patton Flyer bus to and from the airport, we have no objections to it. Support an Irish company and don't let us be bullied by Aircoach and our government. Try to make our voices heard, stop them ignoring the "little people" like they always do in Ireland

It is people like that who posted this comment on facebook who really need to get a life. If someone is loosing sleep over a bus on the other side of the road to their house then they clearly have way too much time on their hands. The whole pupose of a bus is to get people out of their cars and on to public (or in this case privately run) transport. For example, a tri-axle bus such as those heavily used on the 46A route have 72 seats or there abouts. If you take the average car as being able to seat 5, that is 14.4 cars that a tri-axle is taking off the road. Nevermind the standing space which can fit about an extra 10 or so people. By availing of such transport modes, you decrease your carbon foot print. So, don't give us this nonsense that buses pollute the atmosphere when their purpose is quite the opposite.

This second opinon of "my own quiet little street" should remain untouched by public transport and trucks is also nonsense. The last time I checked, roads such as Hyde Road are public roads and are in theory made for use with all types of transport. Do people really think that they are entitled to more peace than the next person? If so, they are downright ignorant. As a long-living Dalkey resident myself, I am sick and tired of hearing opinions such as this one. This whole pretentious, snobby and superior frame of mind is one thing which shouldn't be accomodated by any form of legislation let alone planning decisions (which is often the case). Essentially, people who have this mind set are the biggest parasites in society as they are dictating the type of businesses which spring up locally to suit themselves and nobody else. Newsflash to those who do this, you are not only putting a strain on potential businesses but you also block a huge amount of potential employment. At some stage in the future, Dalkey will have to undergo a massive change.

patrickbrophy18

KD345 wrote: »

No, what is a disgrace is to have an individual think he can ignore all laws and operate a bus service illegally.



All bus stops must have approval from the Gardai. If the stop is approved and safe then I don't see the problem.

I must say that letter by the Dalkey resident just reads like a rant about everything. If it's not an "ugly blue Aircoach" it's a problem with lorries, flood lighting, football parking, builders, leaving cert students, etc.

This is a public road. The person parked waiting for a bus to arrive has just as much a right to be there as the person who bought a house with no driveway and wants to park outside. It's strange, most people would be delighted to have a frequent, reliable bus service to the airport. Some would see it as adding value to their community. If the noise levels are above the acceptable levels then they can be stopped, but all over Dublin there are bus stops, some with a frequency far greater than the Aircoach.

The comments on Irish vs. UK companies are both insulting and unnecessary. The suggestion that we should somehow boycott a company employing Irish people and operating legally simply because they're British is plain wrong.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Also DalkeyResident, by making a bunch of anti-British statements is not only pathetic but it's also racist.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

This is simply the way many people feel in Dalkey, Aircoach is destroying the Town and is a big evil multi-national corporation who does not care about it's residents and its making life hell for everyone. It is not the way I see it but local residents feel very strongly and one in particular is so annoyed with the bus stop outside her house she may consider removing it.

From Patton's Facebook group:
Latest News: The Flyer is still running. Please support us now if you can. Aircoach/FirstGroup have begun legal proceedings against The Flyer to try and put us off the road. RIP private enterprise and local business.

Again I have to question why, if you do not agree with these views, are you continually posting every negative report that you find about Aircoach on this service and no positive ones?

JHMEG

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

So, don't give us this nonsense that buses pollute the atmosphere when their purpose is quite the opposite.

Buses sitting idling (which I believe was the complaint) is a major source of air pollution. The EPA has a campaign going in the US to cut out the practice.

The EPA's concerns are here.

Human Health
Diesel Exhaust and Your Health

* Diesel exhaust contains significant levels of small particles, known as fine particulate matter. Fine particles are so small that several thousand of them could fit on the period at the end of this sentence.
* Fine particles pose a significant health risk because they can pass through the nose and throat and lodge themselves in the lungs. These fine particles can cause lung damage and premature death. They can also aggravate conditions such as asthma and bronchitis.
* Nationwide, particulate matter, especially fine particles, is responsible for thousands of premature deaths every year.
* EPA has determined that diesel exhaust is a likely human carcinogen. Diesel exhaust can also contribute to other acute and chronic health effects (see EPA's Health Assessment Document for Diesel Exhaust).

Who is at Risk?

* People with existing heart or lung disease, asthma or other respiratory problems are most sensitive to the health effects of fine particles. The elderly and children are also at risk.
* Children are more susceptible to air pollution than healthy adults because their respiratory systems are still developing and they have a faster breathing rate.

Other Health and Environmental Effects

* Diesel exhaust also contains pollutants that contribute to ozone formation (or smog), acid rain, and global climate change.
* Fine particles from diesel engines contribute to haze which restricts our ability to see long distances.

AlekSmart

Buses sitting idling (which I believe was the complaint) is a major source of air pollution. The EPA has a campaign going in the US to cut out the practice.

This is all well and good and is acknowledged by most major operators (including Dublin Bus) in Europe and the USA.
All of the relevant data and the responses from engine manufacturers are in the public domain,although the continuing build up of particulates as a result of the Icelandic volcano continue to pose a worryingly unpredictable threat to air-quality.

It is of zero significance in this particular thread except perhaps as an ash-covered red-herring.

The Aircoach fleet are all fully compliant with the relevant Euro exhaust emission specifications and may well be cleaner than the vehicles which Mr Patton was utilizing.

My understanding is that whilst SOME Dalkey based individuals have adopted a strong anti-Aircoach stance the new service has stimulated quite a degree of business from a somewhat wider catchment area.

Included in this are Aircoach customers who previously used the Greystones service and were dropped/picked up from the N11 or Shankhill stops.

It would appear that Aircoach figures for the first fortnight of largely unadvertised operations are surprisingly robust,especially in view of the general collapse in Dublin Airport usage.

I would imagine that this is the real source of Mr Pattons ire rather than any great affinity with resurrecting the Irish fight for independence in the Dalkey/Killiney environs.

JHMEG

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is of zero significance in this particular thread except perhaps as an ash-covered red-herring.

I dislike the way truths get dismissed in this argument because they may support the wrong side.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Aircoach fleet are all fully compliant with the relevant Euro exhaust emission specifications and may well be cleaner than the vehicles which Mr Patton was utilizing.

The European standards with regard to diesel emissions are appalling poor, so poor in fact that many diesel engines here are not legal in the US and Japan. I have not doubt both companies' buses are as bad as each other.

If someone has buses sitting idling outside their house continuously, they are entitled to have a complaint. I would. It doesn't matter what company logo is on the bus.

Again, I don't understand this Aircoach love-in. If Dunnes operated contrary to their planning permission in a given area would ye be all defending and extolling the virtues of the nearby Tesco?

devnull

DalkeyResident wrote: »

What a load of tosh that is spoken on this board about Patton, it really is a disgrace when the people on here are supporting a foreign country who invaded us and stole our land against our own private enterprises.I read this on the facebook page of Patton today, a true vision of exactly what this dispicable Aircoach company are doing, they are causing pollution, causing our plants to die and our children not to sleep, just so some greedy suits can make money and exploit Ireland and now I read they are being taken to court by them? Surely it should be the other way around?

Please use the Patton Flyer bus to and from the airport, we have no objections to it. Support an Irish company and don't let us be bullied by Aircoach and our government. Try to make our voices heard, stop them ignoring the "little people" like they always do in Ireland

That woman's comments, just come across as a typical NIMBY to be honest, and the vast majority of it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, some of it is quite laughable to be honest and seeks to blame Aircoach for every little problem there is in Dalkey and is typical of the kind of people that Patrick describes.

It is interesting to note she claims that there is too many buses and cars etc serving the area, but seems not to care that the only vehicles that should not be there, and are causing additional pollution in the area are that of the Patton Flyer.

On a lighter note, I doubt Daimler will be happy about their coaches being called ugly, particularly at the crazy amount they cost - touch of bitterness here I think!

dub_commuter wrote: »

It is not the way I see it but local residents feel very strongly and one in particular is so annoyed with the bus stop outside her house she may consider removing it.

From Patton's Facebook group:
Latest News: The Flyer is still running. Please support us now if you can. Aircoach/FirstGroup have begun legal proceedings against The Flyer to try and put us off the road. RIP private enterprise and local business.

If they did remove or destroy it it would be more fool them as no doubt they would not only look childish but would no doubt face some kind of action for carrying out such actions.

It is hardly surprising that First Aircoach are now going to take legal action, I always expected that this would happen once they commenced service because of the revenue abstraction.

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

No, what is a disgrace is to have an individual think he can ignore all laws and operate a bus service illegally.

Spot on.

All bus stops must have approval from the Gardai. If the stop is approved and safe then I don't see the problem.

This is a public road. The person parked waiting for a bus to arrive has just as much a right to be there as the person who bought a house with no driveway and wants to park outside. It's strange, most people would be delighted to have a frequent, reliable bus service to the airport. Some would see it as adding value to their community. If the noise levels are above the acceptable levels then they can be stopped, but all over Dublin there are bus stops, some with a frequency far greater than the Aircoach.

The comments on Irish vs. UK companies are both insulting and unnecessary. The suggestion that we should somehow boycott a company employing Irish people and operating legally simply because they're British is plain wrong.

I think the problem we have here is that people are believing a lot of the stuff that Patton is trotting out and think that this is a multinational company who is trying to crush the local area, and a number of people are actually buying it, and some people believe that this is the beginning of a sharp decline in their area.

No doubt if Patton himself was doing exactly the same things with exactly the same vehicles these people would be saying nothing. At the end of the day I would be happy to have such a frequent service on my doorstep, unfortunately it seems that some areas, are letting untruths get in the way of their judgement and being took along for a ride by Patton and believing everything he says in his bid to whip up friction between them (The Evil British polluting multi nationals) and us (The loyal passionate Patriotic Irish local guys)

As Aleksmart has said, it's more red herrings to cloud what the real issues are and this is something that has happened with this story over a period of time.

JHMEG wrote: »

I dislike the way truths get dismissed in this argument because they may support the wrong side.

Me too. I feel exactly the same way, but the difference is the people whoa are doing this are the Patton Supporters who cannot see past his spin and out and out lies, which he has backtracked on and totally changed his story many times, just viewing this thread as a whole will tell you that.

The European standards with regard to diesel emissions are appalling poor, so poor in fact that many diesel engines here are not legal in the US and Japan. I have not doubt both companies' buses are as bad as each other.

If someone has buses sitting idling outside their house continuously, they are entitled to have a complaint. I would. It doesn't matter what company logo is on the bus.

You see this is the frenzy Patton is whipping up, he doesn't respect the law for when it comes to route licensing, now we are seeing stuff from his supporters moaning about other laws now, because they also do not fit his agenda, once again backed up with the usual them against us attitude which has been used for the whole situation.

Again, I don't understand this Aircoach love-in. If Dunnes operated contrary to their planning permission in a given area would ye be all defending and extolling the virtues of the nearby Tesco?

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make? The facts, and lets face it some people are having trouble in accepting them, that Patton decided to ignore the law, reject a license and then moan when someone else got it, and decided to keep operating anyway.

I can't for one minute see why Aircoach are getting any criticism to be honest. They've followed the law, just like the likes of Swords Express, Mathews, JJ Kavanagh, Go-Bus etc, yet from what I read from some people it's like they are the bad guy for sticking to the rules - I really don't understand it.

dub_commuter

I am just keeping people informed - no crime in that surely?

At the end of the day Dalkey is an Affluent area and they don't need the bus for the vast majority of people using the area.

AlekSmart

I dislike the way truths get dismissed in this argument because they may support the wrong side.

Dislike it you may JHMEG,but the issue of Exhaust Emissions is certainly not being dismissed in this arguement.
It is however being disregarded by me as having little real relevance to the thread`s topic.

Yes emissions are a huge issue for ALL man made means of power using a combustion engine or even for Killarney`s Jarveys and as such deserves a high profile thread all of its own ?

As for an Aircoach love-in...get a grip man, I`m not aware of any specific pro-Aircoach sentiment for its own sake.

Most of the Aircoach "supporters" are in favour of obeying the Laws of the Land or at least not making a virtue out of completely disregarding them.

I compete with Aircoach every day of the week,but that does`nt make me want to demonize the company,it`s employees or it`s 100% Irish background.

Mr Patton does not have a leg to stand on and he knows it which is why we have all the chaff being scattered around to deflect attention from this fact.

Whether First Group will be satisfied with taking an action against The Patton Flyer is open for discussion.

I would suspect that if this happens it will merely be a vehicle by which a far more lucrative judgement may be secured against the wretched Department of Transport and the Commissioner of an Garda Sicohana,both entities whom appear to have totally failed in their duties to devise,impliment and enforce their own laws.

This could well be a very interesting legal spectacle indeed

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

I am just keeping people informed - no crime in that surely?

At the end of the day Dalkey is an Affluent area and they don't need the bus for the vast majority of people using the area.

No crime in keeping people informed but perhaps some impartial reports of how the two services are doing rather than the rather one-sided reports of "people saying this; I've heard that" that you've provided so far might be more constructive.

JHMEG

In case any of ye are missing the Aircoach love-in, here's an example:

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Aircoach fleet are all fully compliant with the relevant Euro exhaust emission specifications and may well be cleaner than the vehicles which Mr Patton was utilizing.

No-one else's buses have anything to do with the emissions from Aircoach buses.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I compete with Aircoach ... it`s 100% Irish background.

More Aircoach love-in by way of untruths. Doesn't matter what side you're on, Aircoach's owners are 100% British.

Seriously, the anti-Patton lobby are as bad as they're claiming the Patton lobby are.

dowlingm

JHMEG - I've no dog in the hunt but it's hard enough to coordinate transport policy without people running unlicenced buses. If Patton feels hard done by in the licencing system, there's always the courts.

Those on this thread ranting about foreign companies are laughable. First of all, we should be welcoming in foreign companies to expand transport in Ireland because of Irish companies are going to have a tough time raising capital. We've seen what happened in the insurance sector with VHI looming over all comers, eventually the BE monolith is going to have to be broken up and some of those parts such as franchise to run bus networks in places like Cork City could attract foreign operators who could offer value-add like next-vehicle-timing, stop announcements and wifi. Small operators like Patton are only going to chip around the edges of what's needed going forward.

Secondly we are coming up on nearly 40 years of membership of the EC/EU and invoking the ghosts of 1798 isn't going to get us anywhere.

Thirdly - where do people get off describing Aircoach as "evil". They aren't paedophile priests, they transport people from A to B for profit.

Fratton Fred

I haven't been on the aircoach yet, but I would guess that they are employing a lot more Irish people than the Patten Flyer.

AlekSmart

but I would guess that they are employing a lot more Irish people than the Patton Flyer.

True indeed.

More Aircoach love-in by way of untruths. Doesn't matter what side you're on, Aircoach's owners are 100% British.

Once again,for effect...No Aircoach love-in here i`m afraid.

Aircoach was founded by Ex Bus Eireann executives John O Sullivan and Mary Leane both Irish,using their own funding and capital raised in Ireland.

They sold their interest only after making the company a very successful entity indeed.

The fact that First Group felt confident to invest in and improve on their sound base only underlines how the native Irish CAN do it right when they stick to the less hi-tech side of things and do it lawfully.

JHMEG

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once again,for effect...No Aircoach love-in here i`m afraid.

That's fine, as long as you stick to the truth:
1. Emissions from Aircoach buses are nothing to do with Patton, Bus Eireann, Sean Quinn or Ryanair, or anyone else you may dislike.
2. Aircoach's owners are 100% British.

KC61

I don't have a particular "love-in" with Aircoach, but what I do have a problem with is that we seem to constantly hear only one side of the story here - that of Mr Patton and his supporters.

To every story there are two sides and in this case (somewhat akin to that of Mortons Circleline -v- Dublin Bus which is still the subject of an outstanding court case) we have a situation where one party shouts very loud and thus gets believed by a large number of people (whether or not he is right) while the other party stays pretty much silent.

I'd just ask for some objective reports on how each operator is doing. The old maxim of "he who shouts loudest gets heard the most" is applying here, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the shouter is correct!