Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Cookie_Monster

paulm17781 wrote: »

How is he any different?

+1

paulm17781 wrote: »

I actually think taxi drivers should be allowed do this. If they're prepared to offer a competitive rate, what's the problem?

no they shouldn't, it's deceitful. I'm getting an Aircoach from Cabinteely this Friday and i have no doubt a taxi or two will try this. I'm simply going to tell them I'm reporting them if any of them try it.

(then again I may drive to the airport as parking is only €5 more than return bus for 2, with no waiting)

devnull

paulm17781 wrote: »

How is he any different?

Exactly, it's highly ironic Patton making a statement like that if indeed it was true.

I actually think taxi drivers should be allowed do this. If they're prepared to offer a competitive rate, what's the problem?

Thing is they don't just offer fares and go away if you refuse in my experience, they speak a load of bull**** threaten you if you don't get into the taxi and also try and intimate people, especially females in my experience having seen it happen to others and also myself.

My cousin was in Ireland last year and I showed her around for a few days and we were waiting for an Aircoach quite early at Leeson Street, and a taxi driver got out and said that he wanted to help us because the Aircoach had gone bankrupt and was not running this morning so the only way to get to the airport was by taxi.

I politely declined to which he started shouting, got out of his cab and then approached my cousin and asked her if she wanted to miss her flight or not. She told him she didn't want to take up his offer, so he told her that he is sorry she wants to wait for a bus that did not turn up, and has a bad safety record and he hopes she did not get killed on the journey but if she did it may teach us a lesson.

In the next five minutes we got approached by other taxi drivers spouting same crap, the bus has broke down, they have gone out of business, the coach has had all the seats ripped out so we have to stand amongst others, none of that is on, and does the taxi industry no favors considering the situation it is in.

I have no problem with taxis pulling into bus stops when hailed, or advertising their services in their windows or on their plate etc, but harassing and downright scaring and intimidating passengers into using the taxi as happens all to often, not just with Aircoach but also at some Nightlink stops, is not on.

devnull

Patton Interview:
http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=tonightwithvincentbrowne&tv3_preview=&video=24427

Check out from 22:00 in Mon 5th July: 11.50pm

Usual same old crap.

paulm17781

devnull wrote: »

Thing is they don't just offer fares and go away if you refuse in my experience, they speak a load of bull**** threaten you if you don't get into the taxi and also try and intimate people, especially females in my experience having seen it happen to others and also myself.
<snip>

I wasn't aware of that. The only time it happened to me, there was me and a girl I did not know at the bus stop. He said he'd bring us for €10. I said I had an annual ticket, that was pretty much the end of it.

dub_commuter

As he says it is going to the EU who are sure to rule against Aircoach based on the fact that the laws in Ireland are completely stupid, so Patton will win at the end of the day anyway.

Yes Patton may well not have stuck to the laws, but it is highly likely that Patton will be given a reprieve from the EU as the EU have stated previously that they are not happy with Ireland's laws.

At the end of the Day Trevor is going to win, and Aircoach need to carry around 1,200 passengers a week just to cover wages, they cannot be anywhere near that right now, and thats only if the 15 drivers are on 20k a year and they are probbably on more than add in fuel costs etc.

paulm17781

dub_commuter wrote: »

As he says it is going to the EU who are sure to rule against Aircoach based on the fact that the laws in Ireland are completely stupid, so Patton will win at the end of the day anyway.

Yes Patton may well not have stuck to the laws, but it is highly likely that Patton will be given a reprieve from the EU as the EU have stated previously that they are not happy with Ireland's laws.

At the end of the Day Trevor is going to win, and Aircoach need to carry around 1,200 passengers a week just to cover wages, they cannot be anywhere near that right now, and thats only if the 15 drivers are on 20k a year and they are probbably on more than add in fuel costs etc.

I assume you have sources for all of the above?

devnull

paulm17781 wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that. The only time it happened to me, there was me and a girl I did not know at the bus stop. He said he'd bring us for €10. I said I had an annual ticket, that was pretty much the end of it.

Not all the taxi drivers do it, you generally have three groups:
1) The ones who politely ask you and go away if you tell them no
2) The ones who ask you and if you refuse they are disparaging about the service and say is broke down etc.
3) The ones who tell you there are no buses and get very angry and aggressive if you dare to turn down their offer.

Most of them tend to fall into the first two groups, but there are a few around of the third group too.

devnull

paulm17781 wrote: »

I assume you have sources for all of the above?

Patton admitted in that interview that he did not have a license when he started and stated that his service was legal based on the old act of the year I forget the name of. Stated the fact he had a ticketing and a bus company of which is well known structure now.

Stated it was with the EU and ombudsman who are looking into it right now and that he has fantastic support and is still carrying a lot of passengers on his service.

dub_commuter

Do the sums

If 15 new drivers at at least 20k a head =€300,000 per year

300,000 divided by 365 days = €821.92 per day in wages

€821.92 in wages = 103 tickets @ €8 each, more if returns or children.

OR

If 15 new drivers at at least 25k a head = €375,000 per year

375,000 divided by 365 days = €1027.40 per day in wages

€1027.40 in wages = 128 tickets @ €8 each more if returns or children.

They have NO chance as you have to add in maintenance, fuel, breakdowns, overtime, sickness, tax etc.

markpb

dub_commuter wrote: »

The official reports are blah blah blah

I presume you have a link or news source for these official reports?

JHMEG

The "interview" on TV3 wasn't great. Don't think Vincenzo was too interested in buses to the airport, regardless of who runs them.

Patton could have given a better account of himself, but maintains he's operating under the 1934 RTA. Doesn't sound like anyone has proved he isn't.

dub_commuter

At the end of the day we all know what the EU think of the regulation here so are going to rule in Patton's favour regardless of if it is right or wrong, because the system is flawed, and the EU will rule the system is flawed then get Patton a license. Maybe not right but that is obviously what will happen.

He has a lot of support and loyal followers, none of them are going to dump him anytime soon and he is not going to go anywhere anytime soon. I see that Dualway are now promoting Aircoach at their stops. No doubt the Patton followers will now boycott these too.

Cookie_Monster

why are the EU going to "automatically" support Patton?

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

At the end of the day we all know what the EU think of the regulation here so are going to rule in Patton's favour regardless of if it is right or wrong, because the system is flawed, and the EU will rule the system is flawed then get Patton a license. Maybe not right but that is obviously what will happen.

He has a lot of support and loyal followers, none of them are going to dump him anytime soon and he is not going to go anywhere anytime soon. I see that Dualway are now promoting Aircoach at their stops. No doubt the Patton followers will now boycott these too.

You seem to "know" an awful lot. How can anyone be that certain?

With due respect you've repeatedly posted hearsay as fact on this board about loadings, comfort levels, First Group's finances, and now supposition about EU legal decisions.

I'd prefer to get some proper factual information than read this repeated hearsay.

I am finding this all rather hard to reconcile with your oft repeated statements here that you did not agree with all this "hearsay".

markpb

dub_commuter wrote: »

At the end of the day we all know what the EU think of the regulation here

Not me. I haven't seen or heard anything from the EU about our bus route regulation. Maybe I missed the memo or link to back up your increasingly wild accusations?

so are going to rule in Patton's favour regardless of if it is right or wrong

Read that again and tell me what you actually meant?

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

At the end of the day we all know what the EU think of the regulation here so are going to rule in Patton's favour regardless of if it is right or wrong, because the system is flawed, and the EU will rule the system is flawed then get Patton a license. Maybe not right but that is obviously what will happen.

He has a lot of support and loyal followers, none of them are going to dump him anytime soon and he is not going to go anywhere anytime soon. I see that Dualway are now promoting Aircoach at their stops. No doubt the Patton followers will now boycott these too.

Apologies if this is off-topic, but given the range of allegations made I was a little surprised by the series of posts above. I had a vague notion in my head that you had been quite supportive of Aircoach before on these boards.

Can you perhaps explain how your views appear to have changed from those you expressed less than two years ago?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57355578&postcount=70

dub_commuter wrote: »

In relation to Aircoach the Aircoach situation is interesting, I heard that the reason they only started offering the Greystones service in the last few months was the time the DOT took to process their license request. I hold no brief for private operators but use Aircoach reguarly when travelling to the Airport and find them excellent. Whilst there are rights and wrongs about private operators Aircoach was one of the first Private companies to make a signifcent investment in the market. They had a hell of a tough time at the start and lost a lot of money right at the start. But they operated within the rules at all times, even when things were looking bad for them in the early days.

Why should The Patton Flyer feel they are exempt to the rules that everyone else have had to follow in regards to licensing, as has been pointed out, I would be very worried about what would happen if an accident happened when they are running an illegal route. Yes there are rights and wrongs about why the patton flyer and aircoach should not operate with each other, but everyone else has had to live with these rules so why should Mr Patton be any different with his service? I'm sure Aircoach would love to be able to allow people to get on/off any stop on their Belfast route rather than allowing certain people to only get on or off at certain stops, but it doesn't mean they just go and do it anyway does it?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57362806&postcount=74

dub_commuter wrote: »

I can't see how breaking the laws that everyone else has to abide by is common sense, but maybe thats just me.

You do seem to have had a significant change of opinion?

devnull

I have heard that Patton is now allowing under 12's to travel for free rather than charging them as adults presumably in reaction to the fact that Aircoach did not charge full prices for them.

It's a shame that Trevor only decided to change his policy when the legal service came in. No doubt he would not have done this if this did not happen, and would continue to rip people off, despite being the local community service he has claimed the Patton Flyer is.

I also noticed Patton himself is driving the buses in the evening shift now, no doubt kicking staff out which he claims was a hard decision, and allowing himself to drive them means more money for him and less on wages.

Meanwhile Aircoach who he claims are destroying the local area and are not helping the economy have created 15 direct jobs....

Rock Steady Edy

To be fair to both companies, I doubt either of them are exactly raking it in. If he's driving the bus himself margins must be tight enough.

Patton will need to advertise his new free child places if anyone's going to take advantage of it. I wouldn't risk relying on hearsay. I also wouldn't be hanging around the ariport an extra hour just to wait for a Flyer as it has been noted some loyal followers do.

I look forward to the day of one good operator that takes all the advantages of both service providers. This service duplication is ridiculous.

Rock Steady Edy

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

Well they are his rules alright. But if I was a consultant advising his business, I'd recommend that he changed his fares for children to free under 5 and about €5 for 5-12s (like Aircoach). And as payment for my advice I would happily take 50% of the extra takings for the first 3 months.

...and I look forward to my somewhat belated (and probably small) commission in 3 months time... :-(

Run_to_da_hills

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

I look forward to the day of one good operator that takes all the advantages of both service providers. This service duplication is ridiculous.

Anything but, when one operator takes over it becomes a monopoly and the opposite happens.

dub_commuter

The fact is that despite people on my back, what I posted in the past was my opinion and largely still is to this day.

What people are getting mixed up with is that I am posting what is happening, it is not my opinion but is the facts and the news.

I still feel the way I do in the original posts, however I believe that what actually is happening is very different.

My opinion right now is Patton is neither providing a community service nor is he in it for the good of the local people, he is driving the bus himself for self-interest reasons, and if he did cut his staff by 50%, when he reduced the timetable in the evening he must have staff working very long working weeks, maybe even over the 48 hour limit, as reducing the bus to once every other hour in the evenings should not cut staff by 50% unless there is something else at play here.

The fact he has got rid of the price for under 12's has nothing to do with the local community, and more to try and undercut Aircoach, and I believe was prompted by a claim on another website where a passenger said she took the Aircoach because of this previous charge that has now been removed from his service.

The fact is if Aircoach Dalkey is driven out of business it will cost the economy money and jobs, because they must be contributing a lot more than Patton with his handful of staff, that is what the people need to realise, but sadly they do not and get Patton's service regardless because they believe everything he says, which on the face of it, as I have been saying, is a good story, the fact that it has no basis on reality people in these areas do not seem to get.

Maybe Aircoach should cut their fares to something ridiculously low for a few weeks to drive him out of business. You may say that is reminicent of the bus wars in the UK when people did this to drive competitors out of business in an underhand and unethical way, but at the end of the day Patton is not playing by the book so he can hardly complain.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

What people are getting mixed up with is that I am posting what is happening, it is not my opinion but is the facts and the news.

I'm not getting mixed up at all.

All you've posted since the Aircoach service started has been hearsay and conjecture about the whole situation and not facts/news.

We don't "all know" what the EU will do about the situation. We don't all know that First Group are going to sell Aircoach because of losses/debt. How could you possibly "know" this?

They are some serious allegations that you are making without any facts to back them up.

That's what I have a problem with, along with the barstool style reports from the local area that are based on hearsay but again don't have any factual backup.

AlekSmart

Do any of the regular Patton watchers happen to know how many ex P-Flyer drivers are now working with Aircoach ?

devnull

Aircoach have a monopoly of sorts on their Ballsbridge and Leopardstown routes but they have not unreasonably jacked the prices up in the time they have been operating them so there is nothing to say they will do the same if Patton vanishes.

All they've done is increased the price from South of the city centre from 7 euro to single to 8 euro single, and 12 euro return to 14 euro return about 18 months ago, but that was the only rise they've had on those services in the last five years and coincided with the removal of the fuel rebate. We do know however Patton hiked his fares up with his charging for kids as adults pricing model, but quickly changes it when Aircoach started.

On Alek's point, do we actually know that some have done this? I know it was rumored but do you know that this has actually happened? If so it would be interesting to compare what these drivers thought of the two companies and how they would see it, so to speak.

I also happen to agree the service duplication is ridiculous - however that blame lies solely at the foot of the DoT.

notel70

dub_commuter wrote: »

Allen Parker was down there too posing on one of their Mercedes coaches

Why would they be posing beside one of their Setra coaches? that doesnt make sense to me, these coaches are 6years old and look it too.

Their new ones are volvo engined

devnull

Because most likely it would not be easy to get around those roads on a tri-axle so they decided to use the Setra's instead. I don't think they look bad at all, some of the ones that have been used on the Dublin City service for the past 5-6 years are showing wear and tear though I admit.

The Setra's mostly on the Dalkey route are previous Belfast to Dublin Airport and Cork to Dublin Airport vehicles, which are being reallocated due to the reduction in journeys per day by 1 in each direction on the Cork route and a few more on the Belfast route. Some of them are based in Cork and Belfast outstations so will never be seen in Dublin City because of it.

Thus they have largely not been confined to the Dublin City services and have lived relatively sheltered lives on intercity services, so have not had the stress of a 24 hour 364 days a year operation that the likes of the two vodafone wrapped ones have and are looking a bit more tired for it.

Either way, be it the Setra's or Volvo's, they're both great coaches to travel on from a comfort point of view, would be nice if the Volvo's had fold down trays like the Setra's and also be nice if the Setra's had wifi, but you can't have everything I guess!

Run_to_da_hills

I see Air Coach had a promo in the basement of Dunlaoghaire SC to-day, handing out sweets and time tables.

devnull

Does anyone know why Patton was parked next to the Aircoach stop in Westmoreland street on Tuesday?

On Wednesday I also saw one of his buses going down Westmoreland street turning onto the quays with pax on board, presumably heading towards the port tunnel....

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

Does anyone know why Patton was parked next to the Aircoach stop in Westmoreland street on Tuesday?

is he after buying aircoach? Or could be trying to block the aircoach from pulling into their own stop?

foggy_lad

Could be that aircoach have subcontracted the service out to patten like city link did with callinans for the galway route?