Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

devnull

Excellent Post Alek - a very good statement of where we are at.

It makes my blood boil to see such lies particularly now people are throwing around accusaions about Aircoach costing more jobs than they created when simple maths and statements Patton made in the past contradicted what has been said in the last few days.

The fact that Patton continues to be allowed to make wild and inaccurate, exaggerated statements without being corrected by the department or action being taken shows you what a shambles it is. It seems that he can say anything and go unpunished.

I saw on twitter earlier people are tweeting about the disgrace at losing 20 jobs, they should all have a look through this thread and see the real reasons, rather than the ones in Patton's head.

DalkeyResident

Trevor had to cut his staff by 50% he had well over 50 staff at one point but was forced down by the Department of transport and those brown nosers Aircoach.

As one resident expertly put it:
Too bad. Screwed by politics. They found a market, and lost it. Not because of incompetence, but instead because of regulators who seem to favor those that have capital, influence, but no ideas.

What a shame... No wonder the place is in the doldrums.. someone gets off their backside and makes a success of things and their own government stuff them...

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Trevor had to cut his staff by 50% he had well over 50 staff at one point but was forced down by the Department of transport and those brown nosers Aircoach.

As one resident expertly put it:
Too bad. Screwed by politics. They found a market, and lost it. Not because of incompetence, but instead because of regulators who seem to favor those that have capital, influence, but no ideas.

What a shame... No wonder the place is in the doldrums.. someone gets off their backside and makes a success of things and their own government stuff them...

have you even read any of this thread?
How was he screwed by politics?

Aircoach are "brown nosers" cos they followed the law and proper procedure?

Yours posts are so biased and shortsighted they're actually funny

devnull

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Trevor had to cut his staff by 50% he had well over 50 staff at one point but was forced down by the Department of transport and those brown nosers Aircoach.

Ok, to put this argument to bed about jobs figures once and for all here is some simple maths.

Patton Before Cutbacks
Before Patton cut his services he had 20 a day in each direction, that means he had 140 a week in each direction, which is around 280 hours work a week.

If he had 50 staff that means an average of around about 5.6 hours a week per staff member. Divide that into a 7 day week and it works out an average of less than an hour a day!

If someone works more than an hour a day, it means that someone else will have to work less to balance it, for example not a full run. I really can't imagine someone working a shift of less than an hour!

If they were getting paid £10 an hour which I doubt it, it means they get a average of €56 a week from Patton, a little more than drawing the dole.

Patton after cutbacks (Staff Numbers confirmed by Patton)
After the cutbacks, Patton said he reduced his staff by around 50% if he had 50 jobs he now has 25, which is quite near the approx 20 figure that was quoted in the press today.

He dropped 5 services in each direction. This means he would now be at 15 a day in each direction, meaning 105 trips each week in each direction, resulting in 210 hours work.

His service was therefore cut by 25% from that before the cutbacks, but he says at the time that he has cut his staff by 50%.

If he had 25 staff working 210 hours a week between them. It means they are working nearly 8 and a half hours a week between them, which works out about just over 1.2 hours a day each

Wages wise this means they would be on €12 a day or €84 per week. THis does not take into account since the cutbacks have happened Patton has drove a lot of buses.

Aircoach Example
Aircoach operate 58 services a day, 29 in each direction. Over the course of the week they operate 203 in each direction each week. This results in around 406 hours work a week.

They claim to have recruited 15 new staff for the route. There may also be more staff who have had their schedules changed from within the company on other routes, but as we are only dealing with things we have had posted rather than fantasy figures, I will not include them.

406 hours work a week divided by 15 staff works out at an average of 27 hours work each week. I have read previously they are paid around a minimum of 10.50 euro an hour. This works out to be around 283.50 a week on average or £1,134 a month.

Conclusions:
- The numbers Patton Quotes do not seem workable when analysed.
- If they are true then it represents a very bad deal for his staff.
- The Irish based employee is much better off in Aircoach, they have more hours, with better pay.

I hope all of the above has been of some assistance to DalkeyResident.

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

What we need to know,perhaps via a FoI request (?) is the timing,nature and extent of that meeting plus the attendees.

I look forward to reading the results of your FOI request.

devnull

I'm sure if someone wanted to find out more info about the staff and the company details behind the Patton Flyer you could get it from the CRO.ie website for 2.50 a document.

There seems to be an entry for the Patton Flyer under company reference 441890 with an address in Dalkey. I'm sure if you requested a few of the documents you could find out a bit more information and perhaps accurate staff numbers.

Looks like that the accounts for 2008 and 2009 were filled together in March this year, along with both years annual returns as well. This would mean then surely the 2008 ones were filled a year late as they should be being done every year?

Wasn't this around the same time that Patton cut his timetable back?

dub_commuter

Your wasting your breath, as I have said throughout this thread the people of Dalkey are under Patton's spell. No matter what he says they will believe him, whether it has no basis on reality or not.

He goes with the figure of 20 jobs gone and the reaction of people in Dalkey is OMG a British company forced 20 people out of jobs and only employed 15 themselves they are a disgrace.

The fact that these jobs created by Aircoach are on much better terms, or Patton is a liar (Lets face it one of them has to be true), does not come into their head, as he is holier than thou and can do no wrong.

It is pointless continuing this thread and arguing with the pro Patton supporters, he brainwashed them along time ago, and nothing is going to change that, if they stopped and thought and read this thread properly for an hour or two they'd see what he is, but they will not do that, because they have been brainwashed.

Transportuser09

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Trevor had to cut his staff by 50% he had well over 50 staff at one point but was forced down by the Department of transport and those brown nosers Aircoach.

As one resident expertly put it:
Too bad. Screwed by politics. They found a market, and lost it. Not because of incompetence, but instead because of regulators who seem to favor those that have capital, influence, but no ideas.

Or just they favour those who set up routes lawfully, strange though it may seem. I understand why local residents may resent the loss of a local business, but at the end of the day said business has nobody to blame but themselves for not doing things the lawful way. There's been no brownnosing, Aircoach followed procedure, Patton didn't. Simples.

AlekSmart

I look forward to reading the results of your FOI request.

Alas schemingbohemia,I have no intention of submitting such a request as I do not feel it worth spending any money or time on Mr Pattons adventures.

The Patton Flyer issue was never just about Trevor Patton himself.

It remains a far more accurate bellweather of true Irish methodology and out inbuilt ability to convince ourselves that we really are different.

Whilst it is good to see Mr Patton having to acknowledge the existence of Rules & Regulations which actually apply to him,it remains a fact that a Government Minister,his entire Departmental Machinery plus the assembled forces of an Garda Siochana were unable to prevent an individual advertising the fact that he was operating illegally and then actually continuing it for nigh on 3 years.

In most other parts of the developed world such blatent unsuitability to hold public office or to administer the law would have resulted in dismissal if not actually being charged with an offence at law.

Is it any wonder the Country has reached the brink of the abyss ?

Fratton Fred

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Trevor had to cut his staff by 50% he had well over 50 staff at one point but was forced down by the Department of transport and those brown nosers Aircoach.

As one resident expertly put it:
Too bad. Screwed by politics. They found a market, and lost it. Not because of incompetence, but instead because of regulators who seem to favor those that have capital, influence, but no ideas.

What a shame... No wonder the place is in the doldrums.. someone gets off their backside and makes a success of things and their own government stuff them...

How did he employ 50 people? I was using the service two or three times per week and I knew pretty mauch all of his staff.

I would estimate that there were around eight drivers and four ticket collectors.

Unlike a lot of people, I have a lot of sympathy for Trevor Patten. He gave Dalkey a direct link to the airport and despite what people may believe, Dalkey/Dun Laoghaire/Monkstown would never have had this if he hadn't have come up with the idea.

I do believe he could have done more to save this though. Maybe starting his route in Bally Brack and avoiding the Blackrock and Sandymount stops, i still don't think there is a big enough call for a 30 minute service though, but he needed bigger coaches as there were times in the morning when I saw passengers turned away.

He has had a kick in the teeth over this one, but i am sure there are plenty of other routes in Dublin he can look at.

foggy_lad

I do believe he could have done more to save this though. Maybe starting his route in Bally Brack and avoiding the Blackrock and Sandymount stops, i still don't think there is a big enough call for a 30 minute service though, but he needed bigger coaches as there were times in the morning when I saw passengers turned away.

maybe operating within the law would have been the best place to start?

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How did he employ 50 people? I was using the service two or three times per week and I knew pretty mauch all of his staff.

I would estimate that there were around eight drivers and four ticket collectors.

When he made the cut backs, he said he cut his staff by approx 50%, yesterday in the Irish times he said he had approx 20 staff who were laid off when he ceased on 1st September. That would give him around 40+ staff before the cutbacks give or take a few if he is telling the truth

Unlike a lot of people, I have a lot of sympathy for Trevor Patten. He gave Dalkey a direct link to the airport and despite what people may believe, Dalkey/Dun Laoghaire/Monkstown would never have had this if he hadn't have come up with the idea.

I have sympathy for him that he got fed up with the way the department of transport processes licenses and how slow it is, and it has been documented on here many times before about how the current licensing system is neither operator or customer friendly. However I don't agree with the way he acted when he couldn't get his own way and just started anyway.

I do believe he could have done more to save this though. Maybe starting his route in Bally Brack and avoiding the Blackrock and Sandymount stops, i still don't think there is a big enough call for a 30 minute service though, but he needed bigger coaches as there were times in the morning when I saw passengers turned away.

To be honest, He claims himself as a businessman but he has made several foolish mistakes in the past. He thought he could avoid rules and fight for what he wanted and this is why he has folded now. He was more concerned with having his own way than that of his staff, as his choices were perplexing for someone who wanted to keep in business, as they were a number of un-necessary risks.

He should have accepted the license when offered for Dalkey, Dun Laoghaire, Monkstown and Glasthule. He then should have investigated extending that route by serving stops not served by other operators at a later date. Whilst it may not bring in quite as many fares, it would have ensured his business would be on a sound legal footing, and all of this current situation would have been avoided.

Fratton Fred

foggy_lad wrote: »

maybe operating within the law would have been the best place to start?

Like Padraig Pearse did;)

devnull wrote: »

He should have accepted the license when offered for Dalkey, Dun Laoghaire, Monkstown and Glasthule. He then should have investigated extending that route by serving stops not served by other operators at a later date. Whilst it may not bring in quite as many fares, it would have ensured his business would be on a sound legal footing, and all of this current situation would have been avoided.

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

I think what has happened is a shame and although my sympathy for the Patton Flyer extends only to the staff, I still feel the licencing body needs to take a good long look at itself.

devnull

Another article in the Irish Times some interesting passages.

DAWN IS just beginning to break on an early morning in June as a clutch of people gather outside the Cuala GAA centre on Dalkey’s Hyde Road. At about 3.50am, a familiar grey bus emblazoned with red letters pulls up. A lithe young blonde leaps down to take our cases – the Patton Flyer is ready for its first run of the day to the airport.

But what’s this? A blue Aircoach sidles up nearby in the large parking bay. All 10 passengers waiting, myself included, spurn the new arrival. Like myself, they are declaring with their feet their loyalty to the hourly bus service from Dalkey to Dublin Airport that Trevor Patton started four years ago.

And now the Flyer’s gone, despite an ardent “Save the Flyer” campaign waged over the past year by Patton with support from customers. The writing was on the wall when the Department of Transport, which had refused from the get-go – for reasons that were never really publicly clear – to give Patton a licence, gave one to Aircoach to run on exactly the same Dalkey-to-airport route early this summer. The Sunday morning in June when I found myself completely alone on a Flyer back to the southside was a clear portent.

It’s hard to explain what a pleasure the Patton Flyer was for southsiders. Finally there was a choice between driving across the city to a long-term car-park somewhere near Drogheda with still another juddering bus journey to the airport or paying for a taxi that cost more than the flight.

A choice between the Dart/bus service that involved hauling bags over a railway bridge north of Kilbarrack to get on a bus or at best, getting a lift to Sandyford or Ballsbridge to get the Aircoach. Or, of course, getting a loyal family member to make the over hour-long return journey to drop you off.

Then came Patton, with his staff of friendly east Europeans hefting bags into the hold, filling the morning darkness (the lights on the Flyer were always very low) with soft chatter. It was reliable and at €7, there was no cheaper way to get to the airport. Not to mention how easy it made getting overseas visitors back to the house.

It may seem sentimental but I’ll miss the Flyer: there’s nothing wrong with Aircoach, but it seems unfair that a businessman who created a service where there was none and proved there was a demand for it should be put out of business by government.

Let’s hope that Aircoach doesn’t change Patton’s route too much (having already made a couple of changes), or hike up fares. Patton and Aircoach may not have been David and Goliath – but it feels unpleasantly as if it was.

Once again there seems to be stretching of the truth in this article, and when I read it, I almost thought "Hello Trevor!"

AlekSmart

And now the Flyer’s gone, despite an ardent “Save the Flyer” campaign waged over the past year by Patton with support from customers. The writing was on the wall when the Department of Transport, which had refused from the get-go – for reasons that were never really publicly clear – to give Patton a licence, gave one to Aircoach to run on exactly the same Dalkey-to-airport route early this summer

What a come-down for an organ basking in the self-description as "The Paper of Record".

The reason for the refusal of a licence was just that,a matter of public record,and surely available to any legitimate Newspaper Reporter ?

foggy_lad

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Like Padraig Pearse did;)

so is Mr Patton a paramilitary figure now? was he fighting for his country when he told the department of transport to shove the licence they offered him because it was not exactly as he wanted it to be?

richard2010

As a result of the Patton Flyer ceasing to operate, I think this thread should be put to bed!

Anyone else agree?

patrickbrophy18

richard2010 wrote: »

As a result of the Patton Flyer ceasing to operate, I think this thread should be put to bed!

Anyone else agree?

I think you're right. What has needed to be said, has been said. While I conclude that I do sympathize for Patton and wish him every bit of luck for the future, I would advise him from now on to follow procedure when it comes to setting up other routes. Nevertheless, I do hope that Aircoach do not pull out of Dalkey as it's the only service to the Airport we have left. Either way, I do think that further posts to this thread will be needlessly argumentative.:D

AlekSmart

With respect Richard2010 I`d leave it just a wee bit longer.

Whilst the title reflects the Patton Flyer`s catalystic postition,in reality it`s about the greater issue of what we pay our Political Leaders to do on our behalf.

In this case it appears the entire mechanism of State and Law Enforcement were rendered powerless by a single minded and highly self-confident businessman...how,and more importantly,why did this occur ....Let the thread run I recommend ?? :P

Cookie_Monster

richard2010 wrote: »

As a result of the Patton Flyer ceasing to operate, I think this thread should be put to bed!
Anyone else agree?

no, because there was a clear intention in the letter on the website to be back soon...

And why should discussion be stopped anyway when there is still stuff going on.
Who knows, there could be legal action from Aircoach still in the works and such

antoinolachtnai

He was using his own money. If you want to go into all of that, you will open up the same debate in relation to the lawless use of state money and the operation of illegal routes by state-owned transport companies, which have similarly rendered the mechanism.

dowlingm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He was using his own money. If you want to go into all of that, you will open up the same debate in relation to the lawless use of state money and the operation of illegal routes by state-owned transport companies, which have similarly rendered the mechanism.

Firstly, the notion that the state may not regulate activity funded by private means is crap. Your second point is more serious, but do you think you can point to any posts by other people on this point that implied or stated that the CIE companies can do what they like or that if they did it would be a good thing?

antoinolachtnai

I didn't put forward that notion. I'm just putting forward a comparison. This example is a victimless crime compared to the carry-on that the state sector has gotten involved in. There are plenty of examples of state services operating without proper sanction. Applications from state bus companies have also been given undue preference.

dowlingm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of state services operating without proper sanction. Applications from state bus companies have also been given undue preference.

such as? Come on, let's have it.

-Chris-

devnull wrote: »

Ok, to put this argument to bed about jobs figures once and for all here is some simple maths.

Patton Before Cutbacks
Before Patton cut his services he had 20 a day in each direction, that means he had 140 a week in each direction, which is around 280 hours work a week.

If he had 50 staff that means an average of around about 5.6 hours a week per staff member. Divide that into a 7 day week and it works out an average of less than an hour a day!

If someone works more than an hour a day, it means that someone else will have to work less to balance it, for example not a full run. I really can't imagine someone working a shift of less than an hour!

If they were getting paid £10 an hour which I doubt it, it means they get a average of €56 a week from Patton, a little more than drawing the dole.

But (and maybe I don't know enough about this) this seems to assume that every employee is a driver or ticket collector.
In a company with 50 people you'd probably have several people in accounts, 5 or so people on the management team, would they have a mechanic or two?

On average in a bus company, what's the ratio of drivers to support staff?

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, because there was a clear intention in the letter on the website to be back soon...

And why should discussion be stopped anyway when there is still stuff going on.
Who knows, there could be legal action from Aircoach still in the works and such

For these reasons, I think it's worth keeping this thread open.

classicman

The following is an e-mail I sent to Trevor Patton on the 14th August as I was sitting comfortably on the Aircoach heading for the airport. Funny, got no reply


wtf. Trevor? I'm standing like a plonker waiting for the 9am bus outside cuala, looking at the aircoach but proud to be supporting local business etc. Patton flyer comes at 8.55, slowes down, sees me waiting then speeds up and pisses off, obviously hoping to get other route customers before mr aircoach, which by the way is where I'm seated now, in slight disbelief cause you just lost myself and family as customers. Enjoy your battle, I'm off on me holidays


Since heard he's gone belly up...roll on Aircoach!

devnull

There seems to be wireless on pretty much nearly every Aircoach on the Dalkey route now, which is good news for those who are traveling for business.

I do wonder if they will be able sustain the half hour frequency in the mornings though, as the half past the hour departures tend to have at most 3-4 people on them, but the ones on the hour tend to be better loaded.

I'm wondering if this is just related to the fact Possible switchers from Patton are used to getting on the hour, therefore will stay doing this and not consider the half hour journeys.

Fratton Fred

foggy_lad wrote: »

so is Mr Patton a paramilitary figure now? was he fighting for his country when he told the department of transport to shove the licence they offered him because it was not exactly as he wanted it to be?

I don't know, i get the impression he might be taking up arms some time soon though

My point is, sometimes you need people who push the law and the system to get things done.

As a slightly less emotive example, in England, Sunday trading laws prohibited any store over a certain size from opening. This was obviously antiquated and needed changing, but no one would do anything about it.

Anyway, Tesco, Sainsburys etc all started opening, on the basis that the fine was about £1,200 and they could easily make more than this.

Anyway, this forced the issue, the laws were brought p to date and the system now works a lot better.

Trevor Patten forced the issue, didn't hurt anyone (other than himself) and the result is that the residents of Dalkey now have a bus service.

Unfortunately, here there appears to be no attempt by the authority to modernise the laws, make the system slicker and prevent this from happening again.

LameWorldCup

I'm very disappointed. And I'm also very worried that Aircoach may drop the route should there not be enough passengers - then we'll be left with nowt once more.

Got to be a reason Aircoach never showed much interest before, and they'll be off if it's not working out

SandyfordGuy

classicman wrote: »

The following is an e-mail I sent to Trevor Patton on the 14th August as I was sitting comfortably on the Aircoach heading for the airport. Funny, got no reply

wtf. Trevor? I'm standing like a plonker waiting for the 9am bus outside cuala, looking at the aircoach but proud to be supporting local business etc. Patton flyer comes at 8.55, slowes down, sees me waiting then speeds up and pisses off, obviously hoping to get other route customers before mr aircoach, which by the way is where I'm seated now, in slight disbelief cause you just lost myself and family as customers. Enjoy your battle, I'm off on me holiday.

Unfortunately, despite him describing it as a community service it seems he was willing to fly past one or two passengers if he thought that there were more at the other stops further down the route., which shows he has very little respect for his customers, although many of them still continue to back him even when he does things like this.

I myself was in a position where I needed to get this service for the first time in the past few weeks, and when I got it, it had quite a few people on board, the driver helped me with my luggage and wished people a safe flight. We also had wireless onboard as well, for the same price as Patton, in a much nicer leather seated, well spaced seated, fully featured vehicle that he ever had.

Yet I still was perplexed when some guys found out the Patton service was not running, they decided to order taxis to "support the local guy" rather than get on the Aircoach service. In one of the guys words to me, when he tried to talk me out of getting the service "Why are you supporting the foreigners jobs and paying such a rip off price for a poor quality older vehicle"

All I could do was laugh.