Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

devnull

LameWorldCup wrote: »

I'm very disappointed. And I'm also very worried that Aircoach may drop the route should there not be enough passengers - then we'll be left with nowt once more.

There is enough passengers for the route I would suspect to run at least once an hour, whether the half hourly services at morning times will survive we will have to wait and see as they do not seem to be doing as well as the hourly ones from Dalkey at least.

However if locals will continue to boycott the route in protest at what has happened to Patton, and people indeed start to take taxis, which they claim have got cheaper which I have read on this thread numerous people have, then that will obviously have a negative effect on things.

You may ask how will it when they can afford a taxi now anyway? Well past evidence has shown that taxi drivers are more likely to offer discounts when they are competing with public transport. Should the public transport pull out, you can be assured that the prices would rise without doubt to the previous levels before any operator from this route served the airport.

DalkeyResident

Today I encountered several ex Patton Flyer staff who are now on the verge of homeless due to the bullying tactics by First Aircoach and their myrid of UK staff which are now operating throughout their Irish subsidury. These people, all Irish, are now out on the streets because of the fact that the Government is favoring foreign nationals over our own.

I also see that the Royal Marine hotel, who lets face it has got very poor over the last few months anyway, are also advertising Aircoach. This is not to be surprised considering that recently they have started employing people from other parts of Europe to work in the hotel, presumably to save costs and driving out Irish workers.

We are going to plan a protest soon about local businesses being driven out by greedy multi-nationals. Unfortunately even the Dalkey Business Group is advertising the Aircoach service on their website, a pure case that the people involved in such group have a conflict of interest and are involved in such group to support their own agenda rather than that of the area.

Thankfully resident groups are now informing tourists about the disgraceful acts carried out by this company and we have had quite a lot of support, and also this has the effects of helping the taxi businesses in the area, the true Irish who really deserve your support in the recession.

-Chris-

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Today I encountered several ex Patton Flyer staff who are now on the verge of homeless due to the bullying tactics by First Aircoach and their myrid of UK staff which are now operating throughout their Irish subsidury. These people, all Irish, are now out on the streets because of the fact that the Government is favoring foreign nationals over our own.

Do the UK staff commute from the UK every day or are they resident here? Do they have homes here and pay taxes here?

DalkeyResident wrote: »

I also see that the Royal Marine hotel, who lets face it has got very poor over the last few months anyway, are also advertising Aircoach. This is not to be surprised considering that recently they have started employing people from other parts of Europe to work in the hotel, presumably to save costs and driving out Irish workers.

Is the minimum wage lower for non-Irish people than it is for Irish people? How are the costs being saved exactly?

DalkeyResident wrote: »

We are going to plan a protest soon about local businesses being driven out by greedy multi-nationals. Unfortunately even the Dalkey Business Group is advertising the Aircoach service on their website, a pure case that the people involved in such group have a conflict of interest and are involved in such group to support their own agenda rather than that of the area.

Is that paid advertising on the DBG website or is it put there for free? Did they refuse to accept advertising from Patton? Did they try and charge Patton a higher price for advertising than they're charging Aircoach?

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Thankfully resident groups are now informing tourists about the disgraceful acts carried out by this company and we have had quite a lot of support, and also this has the effects of helping the taxi businesses in the area, the true Irish who really deserve your support in the recession.

[sarcasm]Fair play, hopefully people will realise how unfair Aircoach have been and will refuse to use the service (or maybe they'll just use the service, but they'll treat the UK staff poorly). If enough people refuse to use the service, maybe Aircoach will cancel the route and you'll be back to having no airport service at all.[/sarcasm]


Careful what you wish for...

devnull

Fair play, hopefully people will realise how unfair Aircoach have been and will refuse to use the service

Chris - I don't mean to be confrontational, but that is a bizarre post from a impartial mod.

I honestly believe there is too much moderation in these forums now and moderators are getting involved too much without allowing the discussion to flow.

Yes there was not enough moderation before but the closing of the thread a few moments ago, after a post by meanmachine3 who is actually a Dublin Bus driver is another example.

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Today I encountered several ex Patton Flyer staff who are now on the verge of homeless due to the bullying tactics by First Aircoach and their myrid of UK staff which are now operating throughout their Irish subsidury. These people, all Irish, are now out on the streets because of the fact that the Government is favoring foreign nationals over our own.

they are out on the street because Patton let them go rather than redeploy them to other areas of the business (Curtis coaches). He lost out on the route fair and square.

I also see that the Royal Marine hotel, who lets face it has got very poor over the last few months anyway, are also advertising Aircoach.

any proof of how "they've gotten very poor"? Or is that just another biased, unsubstantiated opinion of yours?

This is not to be surprised considering that recently they have started employing people from other parts of Europe to work in the hotel, presumably to save costs and driving out Irish workers.

there has been foreigners working there for years and years and years. That statement also sounds fairly racist to me, are you saying Irish people are inherently better for some reason?

We are going to plan a protest soon about local businesses being driven out by greedy multi-nationals. Unfortunately even the Dalkey Business Group is advertising the Aircoach service on their website, a pure case that the people involved in such group have a conflict of interest and are involved in such group to support their own agenda rather than that of the area.

So you'll be driving out Spar, Mace, all those pubs selling foreign beer brands, topaz and all the other multinationals too will you?

Thankfully resident groups are now informing tourists about the disgraceful acts carried out by this company

what would these be? I can't think of one

and we have had quite a lot of support, and also this has the effects of helping the taxi businesses in the area, the true Irish who really deserve your support in the recession.

Are you only supporting taxi Irish drivers and shunning foreigners too?

As an aside Patton seems to have dumped one of the buses in the parking spaces up past the Castle hotel, block at least 4 of them. Would have gone in the "more obnoxious parking" thread but I didn't have my camera with me

Cookie_Monster

-Chris- wrote: »

Fair play, hopefully people will realise how unfair Aircoach have been and will refuse to use the service.

I hope that's sarcasm, otherwise its a ridiculous statement to make. How have Aircoach been unfair in any aspect of their operations on the route?

DalkeyResident

Chris,

I'm glad you agree that Aircoach have acted illegally in this case and have been unfair.

With that in mind would you please remove the posts that are defamatory about both myself and the residents of Dalkey who support the legal service which has been forced off the road?

Thanks

DalkeyResident

devnull

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I hope that's sarcasm, otherwise its a ridiculous statement to make. How have Aircoach been unfair in any aspect of their operations on the route?

My first feeling as well, I thought that DalkeyResident's post was completely over the top, but I was stunned to see the follow up to it from -Chris-

It is indeed a crazy statement.

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Chris,

I'm glad you agree that Aircoach have acted illegally in this case and have been unfair.

With that in mind would you please remove the posts that are defamatory about both myself and the residents of Dalkey who support the legal service which has been forced off the road?

Thanks

DalkeyResident

one, little shread of evidence, please!?!
You cannot just keep making statements like that without any backup at all!

DalkeyResident

Cookie Monster and Devnull - you ahve spent the whole last pages arguing about things which have proven to be falst, it is refreshing that a moderator has seen through both of you, I respect the decision of any moderator, sadly it appears you are openly questioning the decision of a mod which can only lead to a ban as per the charter?

angel01

From my opinion, I am not an avid poster in this section of boards but I feel there has been too much mod input. On other parts of boards, I never see any mod's unless posts have been alerted and I think that works better, the discussion flows, and there have never been any problem..

Maybe this section is worked differently, but I have found it always works better that way.

I thought if you were a mod, you had to put personal feelings aside and be impartial at all times? (least that is what they do in the sections I post in )

DalkeyResident

I for one, am glad that there is now greater moderation input in this board, especially considering some of the lies and downright untruths have been told here, presumably with those people having a vested interest in Aircoach.

Hopefully the moderators here can ban those responsible so we can have a conversation that reflects the true feelings of those who use the forum and do not have any vested interests.

markpb

Am I the only one who read the last paragraph of Chris' post as sarcastic?

Moderators are only here to apply the rules and remove any unruly elements. They can, and should, be able to post their opinions, just like the rest of us. Can we get over the constant moderator sniping that goes on here?

devnull

I had no problems with the other moderation until the last few weeks, but lately there has been too much closing of threads, deleting of posts, and input from moderators in order to try and direct the flow of discussion to suit their own viewpoint.

I admit that before we had too much messing around in rail threads which has been dealt with, because the moderation was not hard enough at this point, but now it has gone to the other side, and I'm worried about what I should post for the first time or I will get infraction.

DalkeyResident

MarkPB - you are typical of one of the people who has been against Trevor from day one, you are now even trying to spin things to suit your own Agenda. Thankfully I'm on holiday in the states now but when I come back I will be using an Irish Taxi.

As for the rest of you, you should all be infracted, because you are trying to turn everyone against the likes of us Dalkey residents.

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Cookie Monster and Devnull - you ahve spent the whole last pages arguing about things which have proven to be falst, it is refreshing that a moderator has seen through both of you, I respect the decision of any moderator, sadly it appears you are openly questioning the decision of a mod which can only lead to a ban as per the charter?

what have I argued that's been proven false?

I'm questioning Chris' statement as as a poster, I haven't questioned any aspect of his moderating. Stop trying to twist things to suit your own view of the situation. If you can't come here with coherent argument then don't bother trying to pass your increasingly racist opinion off as fact

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

MarkPB - you are typical of one of the people who has been against Trevor from day one, you are now even trying to spin things to suit your own Agenda. Thankfully I'm on holiday in the states now but when I come back I will be using an Irish Taxi.

How will you know it's run by an irish company, employing Irish drivers, or will you just ask and get out if it's not the case

As for the rest of you, you should all be infracted, because you are trying to turn everyone against the likes of us Dalkey residents.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
:rolleyes:

DalkeyResident

Cookie_Monster Reported for accusing me of Racism, typical PC statement, always play the race card.

DalkeyResident

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How will you know it's run by an irish company, employing Irish drivers, or will you just ask and get out if it's not the case

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
:rolleyes:

BANG ON

Giblet

Maybe you can get an unlicensed taxi...

markpb

DalkeyResident wrote: »

MarkPB - you are typical of one of the people who has been against Trevor from day one, you are now even trying to spin things to suit your own Agenda. Thankfully I'm on holiday in the states now but when I come back I will be using an Irish Taxi.

Where have I said anything about Patton or Aircoach? All I said was that IMHO Chris was being sarcastic (suggesting that you could end up with no service if you drive Aircoach out) and that he has ever right to post his opinion here, just like the rest of us.

devnull

Getting back on topic, I would suggest the reason that the Royal Marine have recommended the Aircoach service to their tourists is it is the easiest and most convenient way to get to the hotel, quite rightly what nationality the parent company is should not even come into it, because at the end of the day all the average tourist who stays in a hotel is going to want to know is how best to get there, not everyone is narrow minded. Then to go on a crusade of putting down the hotel as they dared to mention a service which is helpful to their guests is crazy.

As for your comments about the job situation, if you have always been right in your posts, and you claim you have, then there are more hours of work for the people who work in Aircoach than there ever was for the people who worked for Trevor Patton. Patton himself was responsible for these losing their jobs by not running his service legally. I have posted the figures a few pages back.

The reason Dalkey Business Group are no doubt listing the service is because access to the area from the airport direct may well encourage more people to stay in the area when they know it's an easy connection from Dublin Airport, this itself will help the local economy and tourism, so I can't see why this is a bad thing? They are just doing what anyone promoting local business would do so, the government could take a lesson out their book, encouraging tourism and visitors results in tourists spending money in these areas, how is this a bad thing?

In addition the fact that Aircoach are providing Wifi on their coaches could be attractive to business people in the area who have to travel a lot for work etc, something that Trevor Patton could not offer, the fact that these things are happening should be seen as a positive in the area rather than a negative, I honestly can't believe that someone in Dalkey would prefer there would be no service, and instead use taxis, that would not help the area that is for sure.

-Chris-

Jesus, where to start...

When I'm posting in bold, I'm posting as a mod. When I'm not, I'm just being a user.

I was being sarcastic, I should have added a rolleyes or something. My bad.
I've edited my post.

I can post where ever I want as a user as long as I'm within the charter. No one will restrict my ability to have an opinion.

Questioning moderator decision on-thread, or back-seat moderating is an infractable offence. If it continues, I'll infract/ban as appropriate.

Back on topic please.

Dalkeyresident, now that I've clarified the intent of my post, and the capacity in which I posted, I hope you might address my questions. A lot of your current posts seem to be motivated by some latent xenophobia as much as any outrage over the actions of the First Aircoach company.

Transportuser09

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Today I encountered several ex Patton Flyer staff who are now on the verge of homeless due to the bullying tactics by First Aircoach and their myrid of UK staff which are now operating throughout their Irish subsidury. These people, all Irish, are now out on the streets because of the fact that the Government is favoring foreign nationals over our own.

No, the government are favouring those who follow the rules over those who don't.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Thankfully resident groups are now informing tourists about the disgraceful acts carried out by this company and we have had quite a lot of support, and also this has the effects of helping the taxi businesses in the area, the true Irish who really deserve your support in the recession.

Speaking as someone looking at the situation from the outside (I have no connection with either company), those groups would want to be careful of potentially being caught for slander.

DalkeyResident

devnull wrote: »

Getting back on topic, I would suggest the reason that the Royal Marine have recommended the Aircoach service to their tourists is it is the easiest and most convenient way to get to the hotel, quite rightly what nationality the parent company is should not even come into it, because at the end of the day all the average tourist who stays in a hotel is going to want to know is how best to get there, not everyone is narrow minded. Then to go on a crusade of putting down the hotel as they dared to mention a service which is helpful to their guests is crazy.

No, thats not the reason, the reason is they are desperate for money no matter how they get it, and ethics do not come into it with them, if they did they would have supported Trevor, rather than turning their back on him in the way they have. The average tourist comes to Ireland to see Ireland, not the UK.

As for your comments about the job situation, if you have always been right in your posts, and you claim you have, then there are more hours of work for the people who work in Aircoach than there ever was for the people who worked for Trevor Patton. Patton himself was responsible for these losing their jobs by not running his service legally. I have posted the figures a few pages back.

Fact is if Patton was still running there would be less people on the live register today. The figures you post are clearly made up as they do not take into consideration breaks, the fact that more than two buses are on the road, traffic delays, and any extra services that may be run under the private hire agreements that have operated in the area. The fact was he brought an innovative service to the market and was bullied out, which cost jobs in the process.

The reason Dalkey Business Group are no doubt listing the service is because access to the area from the airport direct may well encourage more people to stay in the area when they know it's an easy connection from Dublin Airport, this itself will help the local economy and tourism, so I can't see why this is a bad thing? They are just doing what anyone promoting local business would do so, the government could take a lesson out their book, encouraging tourism and visitors results in tourists spending money in these areas, how is this a bad thing?

The Dalkey business group are full of people who want to further their own political agendas, politicans and politican wanabees. Nobody who visits Dalkey cannot afford a taxi, we are not a lower class area of Dublin where people have to use public transport, we are free to choose, we just liked a friendly local service provided by people in the community who helped others. The problems in this country are nothing to do with this kind of thing, and are everything to do with the country support multi-nationals, other than our own, including Anglo Irish bank who I gather were in much of their problems as many multi-national business held guns to their head.

In addition the fact that Aircoach are providing Wifi on their coaches could be attractive to business people in the area who have to travel a lot for work etc, something that Trevor Patton could not offer, the fact that these things are happening should be seen as a positive in the area rather than a negative, I honestly can't believe that someone in Dalkey would prefer there would be no service, and instead use taxis, that would not help the area that is for sure.

At the end of the day Wifi is a pointless feature on a trip under an hour, and I would bet that only a handful of people a week use it, it would not change anyones mind of whether to go to the airport in the car or in the bus, at the end of the day this is a red herring as is much of what the Aircoach fanboys said. Using taxis does help the local area, as there are local firms in Dalkey who are residents in the area, we keep these off the streets, and in a job, that is called local pride, if the foreginers do not like it, nobody forced them to stay.

DalkeyResident

Chris - can you please explain in more detail?

Thanks buddy!

markpb

DalkeyResident wrote: »

At the end of the day Wifi is a pointless feature on a trip under an hour, and I would bet that only a handful of people a week use it, it would not change anyones mind of whether to go to the airport in the car or in the bus

I travel for work semi-regularly and choose hotels and buses based on the availability of wifi. Sometimes it's for work reasons, sometimes it's for personal use (like being able to check my email on my way to the airport) but it's always a consideration, even for 1h bus journeys.

Calina

richard2010 wrote: »

As a result of the Patton Flyer ceasing to operate, I think this thread should be put to bed!

Anyone else agree?

Or you could just stop reading it if you have no further interest in it.

devnull wrote: »

Chris - I don't mean to be confrontational, but that is a bizarre post from a impartial mod.

I honestly believe there is too much moderation in these forums now and moderators are getting involved too much without allowing the discussion to flow.

Yes there was not enough moderation before but the closing of the thread a few moments ago, after a post by meanmachine3 who is actually a Dublin Bus driver is another example.

Discussion of moderation is generally off topic. If you have an issue I would recommend you contact the moderators via PM or perhaps voice your concerns to a category mod.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Chris,

I'm glad you agree that Aircoach have acted illegally in this case and have been unfair.

With that in mind would you please remove the posts that are defamatory about both myself and the residents of Dalkey who support the legal service which has been forced off the road?

Thanks

DalkeyResident

You will need to point me towards the posts that are defamatory towards yourself. I trust you are not presuming to act on behalf of the collective residents of Dalkey as I would find it difficult to believe that all those concerned were named specifically in this thread. I will take that information in a PM for the purposes of review. I'd also note that if you have an issue with a post in particular you should report it.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Cookie Monster and Devnull - you ahve spent the whole last pages arguing about things which have proven to be falst, it is refreshing that a moderator has seen through both of you, I respect the decision of any moderator, sadly it appears you are openly questioning the decision of a mod which can only lead to a ban as per the charter?

You are not a moderator. If you have an issue you report the post and you allow myself, Victor or -Chris- to make the decision.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

I for one, am glad that there is now greater moderation input in this board, especially considering some of the lies and downright untruths have been told here, presumably with those people having a vested interest in Aircoach.

Hopefully the moderators here can ban those responsible so we can have a conversation that reflects the true feelings of those who use the forum and do not have any vested interests.

For what it is worth I think I can hope that you stop attempting to direct moderation of this thread. Most people who post her regularly will advise you that it is not generally welcomed in any forum on this board and will cause bans to be issued regardless of the validity of other points you may have.

devnull wrote: »

I had no problems with the other moderation until the last few weeks, but lately there has been too much closing of threads, deleting of posts, and input from moderators in order to try and direct the flow of discussion to suit their own viewpoint.

I admit that before we had too much messing around in rail threads which has been dealt with, because the moderation was not hard enough at this point, but now it has gone to the other side, and I'm worried about what I should post for the first time or I will get infraction.

Devnull, please bear in mind that there is a balance to be found. It would help on occasion if you could perhaps voice concerns to the mod team. Speaking personally, I would prefer not to have to come down hard on posters - but the messing in the rail threads has caused a certain amount of messing with that balance. This is unfortunate. If you have other comments on the subject I would welcome them via PM.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

MarkPB - you are typical of one of the people who has been against Trevor from day one, you are now even trying to spin things to suit your own Agenda. Thankfully I'm on holiday in the states now but when I come back I will be using an Irish Taxi.

As for the rest of you, you should all be infracted, because you are trying to turn everyone against the likes of us Dalkey residents.

DalkeyResident, I see you have 11 posts. This suggests to me you are largely not all that familiar with how things work. The board has 3 moderators and is subject to 2 Catmods also. It is not up to you to make recommendations about who gets banned or infracted. If you do this again, you will not have many more posts to your name in this forum.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Cookie_Monster Reported for accusing me of Racism, typical PC statement, always play the race card.

I'm at a loss to understand this. I trust you will allow me some time this evening to review a) the thread and b) recent reported posts to see exactly what the issue here is.

___________________________________________

I wish to point out that moderators are entitled to opinions and attacking mods for holding any particular opinion is perhaps not fair. It is worth honestly assessing how much that opinion might affect moderation decisions but if you have an issue with it, I'd recommend a) PMing the moderator in question or if you are unhappy to do so, b) PMing the other moderators in the forum for a review.

____________________________________________

I would like to review this thread when I get home this evening as time does not allow me to read it in any great detail right now. I do not intend to close it. I would, however, like to ask posters to bear in mind that while people might have strong views about something, the delivery of said views can be a problem for the mod team if it is overly robust.

This is a discussion board. It is not a glatiatorial challenge where one person must win over others. Sometimes life is not binary, not that simple.

____________________________________________

As you were.

-Chris-

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Chris - can you please explain in more detail?

Thanks buddy!

OK, I'll do my best.

-Chris- wrote: »

Do the UK staff commute from the UK every day or are they resident here? Do they have homes here and pay taxes here?

I think this is fairly self explanatory, but what I'm trying to ask is - is the job moving from one Irish resident to another Irish resident, or is it really a situation where jobs are being removed from someone in the Irish workforce and "exported" to someone in the UK?

-Chris- wrote: »

Is the minimum wage lower for non-Irish people than it is for Irish people? How are the costs being saved exactly?

Again, I think this is self explanatory, but your contention is that the Royal Marine are employing non-nationals in order to save on costs. My understanding is that most general hospitality jobs are close to or at the minimum wage.
If my understanding is correct, then there's no saving to be made and your point is moot. If I'm wrong, of course I'd appreciate the correction.

-Chris- wrote: »

Is that paid advertising on the DBG website or is it put there for free? Did they refuse to accept advertising from Patton? Did they try and charge Patton a higher price for advertising than they're charging Aircoach?

I don't know how to phrase this differently. I'm trying to get to the bottom of how the acceptance of this advertising constitutes a conflict of interest.

-Chris- wrote: »

[sarcasm]Fair play, hopefully people will realise how unfair Aircoach have been and will refuse to use the service (or maybe they'll just use the service, but they'll treat the UK staff poorly). If enough people refuse to use the service, maybe Aircoach will cancel the route and you'll be back to having no airport service at all.[/sarcasm]

What I'm getting at here is that you're running the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face.



To summarise: I (personally) feel your post was very "tabloid" and I'm looking to get clarity on your opinions as they don't seem to stand up to scrutiny based on the information currently supplied.

Transportuser09

DalkeyResident wrote: »

No, thats not the reason, the reason is they are desperate for money no matter how they get it, and ethics do not come into it with them, if they did they would have supported Trevor, rather than turning their back on him in the way they have.

Given that Aircoach is the only service serving the hotel it makes sense to advertise them. It's perfectly normal for hotels to do this.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The average tourist comes to Ireland to see Ireland, not the UK.

As far as I know the route doesn't go into the UK.:rolleyes:

DalkeyResident wrote: »

Fact is if Patton was still running there would be less people on the live register today.

That is unfortunate but that's entirely the fault of Patton for not playing by the rules. Aircoach did not bully anyone they simply followed the law.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The Dalkey business group are full of people who want to further their own political agendas, politicans and politican wanabees. Nobody who visits Dalkey cannot afford a taxi

So every single person who visits Dalkey can afford a taxi...