Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Fratton Fred

Dalkey resident, maybe you could give us an idea of how many Irish people worked for the Patten flyer, because it appears no one has seen any!

Cookie_Monster

Dalkey Resident, you haven't really answered a single reply to any of your posts (none of mine anyway). how about you actually address some of the counter arguments to your posts with some proof and we might all believe you?

-Chris-

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps Trevor Patton could consider running for the office of Uachtarain na hEireann on an "Ireland for the Irish(ish)" ticket....?

He`s be sure to poll strongly out round the Borough surely ?

Yeah, except if we send home the foreigners, there'd be no au pairs to look after Oisin and Arrabella while we're working in our boutiques.

steve-o wrote: »

Please do. You are great craic. No doubt you are arranging to have Trevor Patton arrested on sight for 4 years of unpatriotic activity, aiding and abetting thousands of people who went abroad and spent their money there. Crimes against the motherland, or something like that.

This is another good point - either Trevor Patton is helping to remove Dalkey residents to the airport so they can spend their cash abroad and support other economies, or they're helping to collect foreigners from the airport and deliver them deep into the heart of Dalkey.

Either way I would have thought there'd be a mob with torches and pitchforks chasing him out of South County Dublin.

devnull

More ridiculous claims that once again you will not answer DalkeyResident, the laughable anti-British rant you went on which has since been proven to be totally ill-judged makes you look more like you have something against the British in general rather than just this situation itself.

patrickbrophy18

I was in Dalkey Town today and I saw at least 10 to 15 people on the 13:00 Aircoach service. From it's starting point, that aint a bad loading at all.

As for you, DalkeyResident, I think you should lie down before you hurt yourself and indeed your fellow Dalkey people. It would appear as though your anti-British rant takes root from the early 1900's. This is ,not only pathetic but, embarrassing and defamatory. You're only digging yourself a hole by posting such idiotic statements. As a Dalkey resident and Irish person myself, I can confidently say that you are a poor representative of the Dalkey people and indeed the Irish with this old-man's syndrome tripe and xenophobia that you keep spouting. In case you haven't noticed, our differences with the British have long-since been settled. As such, your racist fandangle has no place in modern Ireland. In fact, the British are now a very good and important ally to the Irish.

devnull

Totally agree patrickbrophy18, it really is a completely ridiculous rant and does nobody any favours and takes us back years if we start getting involved in this kind of thing.

The numbers seem pretty good, it would be interesting to see how many they are picking up later down the route and the half hourly morning ones, which still seem to be getting much less passengers than the on the hour ones?

Fratton Fred

devnull wrote: »

Totally agree patrickbrophy18, it really is a completely ridiculous rant and does nobody any favours and takes us back years if we start getting involved in this kind of thing.

The numbers seem pretty good, it would be interesting to see how many they are picking up later down the route and the half hourly morning ones, which still seem to be getting much less passengers than the on the hour ones?

I was on the 5am one this morning and there were about 10 people in total, which compared to the equivelant Patton Flyer 12 months ago is very low.

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was on the 5am one this morning and there were about 10 people in total, which compared to the equivelant Patton Flyer 12 months ago is very low.

Has there been a shift towards taxis in the area by way of protest out of interest? The reason I ask is I'm rarely in the area so I don't know myself personally if that is the case but I have seen people on Patton's Facebook group saying they are doing this and heard that Taxi drivers are offering a fare for the same price as the bus.

As stated previously, this is a false economy by going by taxi, as if the passengers force the Aircoach service into reductions or worse still off the road, you will find the kind, nice offer matching taxi driver will suddenly start charging €40-50 euro again now his competition has gone as opposed to the 8 euro fare he offered previously.

Fratton Fred

devnull wrote: »

Has there been a shift towards taxis in the area by way of protest out of interest? The reason I ask is I'm rarely in the area so I don't know myself personally if that is the case but I have seen people on Patton's Facebook group saying they are doing this and heard that Taxi drivers are offering a fare for the same price as the bus.

As stated previously, this is a false economy by going by taxi, as if the passengers force the Aircoach service into reductions or worse still off the road, you will find the kind, nice offer matching taxi driver will suddenly start charging €40-50 euro again now his competition has gone as opposed to the 8 euro fare he offered previously.

Not sure. I normally get the 7pm coach on a sunday and it is pretty full. I wonder of people are getting the 4:30 coach as most of the London flights head out between 6:30 and 7am meaning the 5am coach is cutting it a bit fine, as I found out myself this morning.

Some people jumped off the coach before T2 as the queue into departures was so slow.

foggy_lad

If the taxis force aircoach out of business it will be just what patton wants as he can start operating illegally again!

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not sure. I normally get the 7pm coach on a sunday and it is pretty full. I wonder of people are getting the 4:30 coach as most of the London flights head out between 6:30 and 7am meaning the 5am coach is cutting it a bit fine, as I found out myself this morning.

Some people jumped off the coach before T2 as the queue into departures was so slow.

I heard that the 3.30 was normally dead from someone last week who used it,and they were the only ones on it, so I didn't know if it would be any better than this.

I was in the Airport pretty early as got the 5.30 service form Belfast a few weeks ago and saw the 7.30 service from Dalkey come in as I was heading back home, looked totally empty apart from one or two again.

People who I spoke to were of the opinion that they were used to the hourly departures from Patton and were used to these, which is why they were snubbing the half hourly service.

I would say it will get a few more months to pick up, but if it does not I wouldn't be surprised to see it cut back to hourly.

DalkeyResident

The reason is at the end of the day people prefer to use local taxis than to support foreign nationals. We are very proud of our country in Dalkey, and want to do our best to support it through the likes of Trevor, Dunnes, Paddy Power etc rather than the likes of Aircoach, Tesco and William Hill who make the Irish economy weaker. The reason the loadings is so less is an extension of this.

The fact that they are now using at least one driver from the North, and no doubt with more to follow after I read they are closing their Belfast route, will do little more than to drive more people away from using a service which harms the revenue from the economy.

However judging by Aircoach are pulling out of Belfast, I would ask how long the Dalkey route will be around as they clearly cannot afford to run half empty coaches on one route, why would it be different on another.

The Patton flyer will be the phoenix rising from the ashes very soon!!!!

-Chris-

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The reason is at the end of the day people prefer to use local taxis than to support foreign nationals.

DalkeyResident, you keep repeating the same racist or xenophobic sentiments and they will no longer be tolerated.

If you continue with this train of discussion, you will be banned or infracted as appropriate.

Fratton Fred

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The reason is at the end of the day people prefer to use local taxis than to support foreign nationals. We are very proud of our country in Dalkey, and want to do our best to support it through the likes of Trevor, Dunnes, Paddy Power etc rather than the likes of Aircoach, Tesco and William Hill who make the Irish economy weaker. The reason the loadings is so less is an extension of this.

The fact that they are now using at least one driver from the North, and no doubt with more to follow after I read they are closing their Belfast route, will do little more than to drive more people away from using a service which harms the revenue from the economy.

However judging by Aircoach are pulling out of Belfast, I would ask how long the Dalkey route will be around as they clearly cannot afford to run half empty coaches on one route, why would it be different on another.

The Patton flyer will be the phoenix rising from the ashes very soon!!!!

Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Dalkey!!

foggy_lad

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The Patton flyer will be the phoenix rising from the ashes very soon!!!!

has trevor patton applied for a licence for the route or is he going to operate without a licence again? are passengers properly insured when being carried on an unlicensed route?

AlekSmart

Are passengers properly insured when being carried on an unlicensed route?

Foggy_Lad raises a very pertinent point here and one which has exercised my mind too.

It`s not so much the unlicenced route of itself being the isse but rather the fact of the Department of Transport officially informing him of his illegal status and even this being raised within Dáil Éireann.

This to my mind would give any Insurer a definite ability to repidiate a major claim should a Vehicle operating in this manner have a serious accident.

The issue of "Good Character" also comes into play, from a Management Certificate of Compenency point of view.

The CoC is a legal requirement for a Transport Company to hold and the holder must satisfy the requirement to be "Of Good Character" as well as being of "Sound Financial Standing" corporately.

I`m beginning to suspect that Mr Patton may have belatedly realized that his CoC for his greater Transport Company was at risk of not being renewed,due to the holder`s willingness to knowingly break the law.

So Foggy_Lad I`m with you on this one,I would suggest that the PF vehicles and customers would not be properly insured if push came to shove....:(

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Foggy_Lad raises a very pertinent point here and one which has exercised my mind too.

It`s not so much the unlicenced route of itself being the isse but rather the fact of the Department of Transport officially informing him of his illegal status and even this being raised within Dáil Éireann.

This to my mind would give any Insurer a definite ability to repidiate a major claim should a Vehicle operating in this manner have a serious accident.

The issue of "Good Character" also comes into play, from a Management Certificate of Compenency point of view.

The CoC is a legal requirement for a Transport Company to hold and the holder must satisfy the requirement to be "Of Good Character" as well as being of "Sound Financial Standing" corporately.

I`m beginning to suspect that Mr Patton may have belatedly realized that his CoC for his greater Transport Company was at risk of not being renewed,due to the holder`s willingness to knowingly break the law.

So Foggy_Lad I`m with you on this one,I would suggest that the PF vehicles and customers would not be properly insured if push came to shove....:(

you mentioned the certificate of competancy before but i cant help thinking that if the patton flyer was operating unlicenced for over a year why was the CoC renewed previously when the holder was not technically "Of Good Character"? is this down to the completely useless and impotent department of transport in ireland that allowed a service operate illegally for so long?

patrickbrophy18

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The reason is at the end of the day people prefer to use local taxis than to support foreign nationals. We are very proud of our country in Dalkey, and want to do our best to support it through the likes of Trevor, Dunnes, Paddy Power etc rather than the likes of Aircoach, Tesco and William Hill who make the Irish economy weaker. The reason the loadings is so less is an extension of this.

I don't think you know how multi-national businesses work in Ireland. Anytime, a multinational company sets up shop (or route in this case), it is taxed at the same rate as everyone else. This includes property tax, payroll and other costs. In turn, this tax goes to the government (In case you didn't know about this). After ending up in the government, they inject this tax back into the economy. Hence, it strengthens the Irish economy. In fact, it is foreign companies that made a huge contribution towards the economic boom of the 1990's and early 2000's. However, it was internal greed that put are country into the current crisis that we see around us. Therefore, you are wrong again. Furthermore, I am now completely convinced that you hold a grudge towards UK companies and indeed the people of the UK.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The fact that they are now using at least one driver from the North, and no doubt with more to follow after I read they are closing their Belfast route, will do little more than to drive more people away from using a service which harms the revenue from the economy.

I will re-emphasize the aforementioned paragraph by saying that the taxes imposed on national and multinational companies alike is injected back into the Irish economy. This helps the government in funding infrastructural improvements (which is still in high demand), improving our health system and generally making the country a better place to live in.

DalkeyResident wrote: »

However judging by Aircoach are pulling out of Belfast, I would ask how long the Dalkey route will be around as they clearly cannot afford to run half empty coaches on one route, why would it be different on another.

I beg to differ on the loadings situation. I saw the Aircoach pass me by three times this week in Dalkey, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire and on all rounds, it had very decent loadings on it. Earlier on in the week, it was departing Dalkey and I could swear that there were at least 10 to 15 people on it. That's very good if you consider the fact that the Setra's used on this route are 53 seaters. In fact, if you take into account that it will be making another 10 stops, a 20-30% full bus isn't all that bad for the beginning of it's journey.

Cookie_Monster

DalkeyResident wrote: »

The reason is at the end of the day people prefer to use local taxis than to support foreign nationals.

how can you say that on behalf of everyone in Dalkey?

We are very proud of our country in Dalkey, and want to do our best to support it through the likes of Trevor, Dunnes, Paddy Power etc rather than the likes of Aircoach, Tesco and William Hill who make the Irish economy weaker

. Explain how Tesco, the largest buyer of Irish foodstuffs in the world and an employer of over 13,000 people in Ireland is damaging the economy, or any of those others mentioned are either. Also how does Dunnes benefit Dalkey, there isn't one anywhere near it.

The fact that they are now using at least one driver from the North, and no doubt with more to follow after I read they are closing their Belfast route, will do little more than to drive more people away from using a service which harms the revenue from the economy.

once again with unsubstantiated xenophobic reasoning. I think most rational people would have little issue with the driver being from NI, many would actualy consider him Irish.

However judging by Aircoach are pulling out of Belfast, I would ask how long the Dalkey route will be around as they clearly cannot afford to run half empty coaches on one route, why would it be different on another.

Dalkey is a much shorter route so cost are much lower per journey. with Patton gone the loadings will increase

The Patton flyer will be the phoenix rising from the ashes very soon!!!!

I don't see how he can every qualify for a licence after the fiasco of last time. The Gardai cannot say he is suitable to operate a route as he has shown he has scant regard for the law over the last 4 years.


And by the way if any of the regular posters had made half the xenophobic and racist comments that DalkeyResident has made we would have been banned long ago...

devnull

With regards to the comments relating to the Belfast route nobody actually knows why they have pulled out, they have never stated the specific reason why. Maybe they have other plans in a similar area, and just are keeping the cards close to their chest. We just don't know.

Patton himself should never get a license, and I can hardly see him coming back to the Dalkey route he previously operated anytime soon, it just won't happen as the department would have their ass sued off in the courts by Aircoach for sure, so it's a non starter and it's about time some people got over the fact he is gone and isn't coming back on this route.

Those Setra's are something like 44 seaters.

patrickbrophy18

I am after reading in the Dalkey Community Council Newsletter that The Patton Flyer is to resume service sometime in the month of November. If this happens, what will happen to the Dalkey Aircoach service?

-Chris-

Why do you think something will happen to the Aircoach service?

devnull

If that is true then Aircoach should take the government to court for every penny they have as it clearly is not fair, why should they be punished for acting within the law.

If it is because the government feel Patton was hard done by, then this surely now an admission that the government would favour him, despite previously saying he was breaking the law, and licensing regulations, and that Aircoach were proven to act within the law, then surely the government would be in a situation where legal action is likely to follow from Aircoach who would then be in a very strong position.

patrickbrophy18

-Chris- wrote: »

Why do you think something will happen to the Aircoach service?

I have heard rumours that Patton has received the license that he was looking for. If this is the case, I am confused as to how two private operators can have a license for identical routes.

devnull

Patton shouldn't have a license, you can bet your life, if Patton had got the license legally like Aircoach had, and Aircoach acted the way Patton has, there is no way that they would be able to break the law for so long, and then end up getting a license anyway.

To me, it just stinks, the whole affair, but then again this is Fianna Fail all over, and after the way they have run this country nothing surprises me, if they took zero tolerance attitude to law breaking and various other things, situations like this wouldn't occur in the first place.

It's so stupid, the moment he broke the licensing laws, stop him operating, the moment a taxi illegaly parks, fine him, the moment someone does something illegal fine them, but sure in Ireland we say, "Don't do that again" the guy goes away and five minutes later does the same thing and the cycle repeats because so many laws in this country are not treated as zero tolerance as they are too minor for the Garda to bother with and instead we deal with the huge mess later as nobody sorted it out before it got that far.

The fact is the Department of Transport have already caused several cans of worms to be opened in this whole debate by the lack of enforcement of their own laws, it would not surprise me if they decided that now things have calmed down somewhat in this whole affair they'll open another can of worms. But I have a feeling this one could cost them a rather lot of money.

dub_commuter

Can I be the first to say:
It looks like the government are favouring law breaking local companies over law abiding multi-nationals.

If this does indeed happen, doesn't that make Patton's inital claims all the more ironic?

J_Dublin15

To be fair, right now it looks like the government may well have been supporting Patton the whole time, look at things on the face of it.

- the DAA refused to stop him stopping in their coach park
- The Garda failed to stop him stopping illegaly in dangerous positions
- He was allowed to operate for so long without a license and boasted about it
- They did not fine him, and did not take any action against him, despite the laws he was breaking
- They now are awarding him a license
- Aircoach asked the DOT to take action - they did not.

To me that does not look like a government who are favoring multi-nationals, indeed it loks like a government who are being very lenient on him because he is a local businessman, and no matter what laws he broke, he got no real punishment and ended up with the license anyway.

As stated by someone else in this thread, if this does happen it will now appear that Aircoach are in a very strong position to take legal action against the department for ignoring their own laws.

Vic_08

dub_commuter wrote: »

Can I be the first to say:
It looks like the government are favouring law breaking local companies over law abiding multi-nationals.

If this does indeed happen, doesn't that make Patton's inital claims all the more ironic?

I suppose the precedent was set when law breaking multi-national Citylink was given a licence despite them illegally operating against law abiding local company gobus.

Remember this is Ireland where crime does pay and two wrongs do make a right.

The clear message from this to anyone in the business is that if you are smart you will ignore the wasters in Kildare St and just do what ever you like.

devnull

After reading the other thread about Dublin Bus Network direct I'd thought they'd finally lost the plot and got even more incompetent than the department of transport, boy how wrong was I to ever think that could be possible!

The citylink vs Gobus case was a little different but similar in most part I agree, and that should never have been allowed to happen either, but once again the department shows it does not have the guts to implement it's own laws, which to be fair is not just a problem in their department, but something which runs throughout the whole government.

All it will do in the long run is stop people investing in transport services if people are allowed to break laws like this - what is the point in investing in vehicles and service enhancements if illegal competition like this is welcome.

Despite what the Patton crowd might say, this kind of situation is not a good one for the customers, as nobody in their right mind is going to decide to invest in a service and infrastructure in this kind of environment.

dub_commuter

The thing is, should this go ahead, the whole reason it was turned down in the first place is it interfered with the Greystones service, before the Aircoach Dalkey service even was mentioned by anyone, Patton then turned down the chance to run a service in the Dalkey, Dun Lagohaire and Glasthule area, as he wanted to run on stops that the Aircoach Greystones route run.

If he does get a license that both takes the stops on the Dalkey route and the Aircoach Greystones route we would have an extraordinary set of circumstances which would allow an illegal operator to operate in competition with Aircoach (Something that the department forbid two operators doing) on the shared stops, which could force Aircoach to lose the Greystones route as well.

We then could have the situation where the Aircoach Greystones route is forced off the road because it is no longer viable because of this, and then the people of Greystones would lose out themselves, when this service is withdrawn because the government have supported Patton's Illegal service and helped him to do this, after making it legal.

Patton then may decide to also run the Greystones route, having effectively been an illegal service for two years with no action taken, and bully BOTH the Dalkey and Greystones Aircoach routes, both which were legal, off the road, and what's more, the government would have helped him do it at the same time.

But remember, the government has it in for Patton......