Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Ham'nd'egger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

if more people acted like Mr Patten, then it would soon be sorted out.

Everyone moans about public transport, but until people do something about it, nothing will change.

No; if Patton didn't feel the law was fair or if it's application or legal basis was inherently incorrect he should have challenged it in court which he is fully entitled to do. He just broke it to suit his own agenda and it doesn't sort anything out here.

angel01

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We're talking about running a bus service here, not mass murder.

This country's foundations are built on people who decided to break the law, in a somewhat more drastic fashion.

What happens if there was an accident though? would he cover that? so its ok, to break the law you are implying?

dub_commuter

Rumour has it the legal Aircoach service may start next month subject to a couple of minor issues being sorted out.

It'll be interesting to see how they plan to win the customers over who are diehard fans over the illegal service they are currently using.

angel01

dub_commuter wrote: »

Rumour has it the Aircoach service may start next month subject to a couple of minor issues being sorted out.

That won't please the folks at the Patton Flyer

Fratton Fred

angel01 wrote: »

What happens if there was an accident though? would he cover that? so its ok, to break the law you are implying?

He is insured, he is running the service as a private hire service. He states that very clearly on his website.

The Illegality of it all may be demonstrated by the fact that after over two years of running the service, Dalkey Gards have yet to stop him. Although that may have something to do with the fact that a lot of them live in Dalkey and use the service themselves

Great if Aircoach offer a service. i don't care who runs it, as long as someone does. I depend on the Patten flyer to get to the airport everyweek, without it, I would probably have to give up my job.

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Great if Aircoach offer a service. i don't care who runs it, as long as someone does.

+1

Hopefully it'll stop Patton from dumping his busses all over Dalkey whenever it suits anyway. They are frequently parked in either the DB stops or the disabled bays on the roundabout.

At least if Aircoach has a legit service a dedicated bus stop and parking area will be required, no?

trad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1

Hopefully it'll stop Patton from dumping his busses all over Dalkey whenever it suits anyway. They are frequently parked in either the DB stops or the disabled bays on the roundabout.

At least if Aircoach has a legit service a dedicated bus stop and parking area will be required, no?

Any Large Public Service Vehicle can park legally at a Bus stop, they are not the property of DB whatever they might think. A lot of stops have 3 signs along the N11, DB, Aircoach and Finnegan.

penexpers

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He is insured, he is running the service as a private hire service. He states that very clearly on his website.

Is this the same website that makes references to "schedule", "fares" and "stops"? None of which are usually used when talking about private hire services.

Cookie_Monster

trad wrote: »

Any Large Public Service Vehicle can park legally at a Bus stop, they are not the property of DB whatever they might think. A lot of stops have 3 signs along the N11, DB, Aircoach and Finnegan.

Busstops are for pickup/set down not parking

AlekSmart

He is insured, he is running the service as a private hire service. He states that very clearly on his website.

I beg to differ here.
The PF website makes reference to another Company,Curtis Coaches operating the service on Patton Flyers behalf.
It also makes mention of a "Scheduled Bus Service" and goes on to list the "Stops" along the route.

Interestingly,these items are an integral part of the route-licencing scenario.
The issue of Stops is of particular importance since the Gardai require prior notification of all such locations in order to verify their suitability.

It needs to be understood here that an Airport Service differs substantially from a "Scheduled Bus Service" in the actual mechanics of its operation.

The Authorities have just as poor an understanding of this as any of the Patton style operators and continue to allocate totally unsuitable locations for Airport Service stops...viz:The Provosts House,Grafton St,where a 13 Mtr tri-axle coach is expected to squeeze safely in between illegally parked Taxi`s,Open Top Tour Buses and the regular service buses ....Sorry Minister Dempsey...It just aint so !!!! :mad:

Aircoach have similar problems in Bray and Shankhill where their stops are poorly located especially when their intending customers are sitting in their family cars awaiting the Coach.

This leads to the usual Irish display of total inability to control one`s voiture as much too`ing and fro`ing is displayed as the voyager is seperated from the car along with their luggage.

Dedicated Airport Services require as an absolute necessity,SPACE.
The presence of luggage and wellwishing friends/relatives ensures that not only the Coach requires catering for if any semblance of SAFETY is to be maintained (Note well,the RSA please !)

But I digress...as this is all supposed to be part of why we have a route-licencing system in place.....:rolleyes:

As Cookie Monster points out,Aircoach will have adhered to the legal requirements and therefore it`s customers will have no question marks over their operators liabilities in the event of an incident.

At least if Aircoach has a legit service a dedicated bus stop and parking area will be required, no?

Notwithstanding the assurances given by Mr Patton and his supporters,I would have strong reservations as to the security of liability cover provided by an Insurer to a customer who is ADMITTING to knowingly operating outside the Legal Requirements.

All is perfectly OK,UNTIL a major incident/accident occurs and the Insutance Company then seeks to limit or avoid meeting a large scale claim....It`s all about the level of risk the customer wishes to recognize and bear on their own shoulders I suppose ??

AlekSmart

Any Large Public Service Vehicle can park legally at a Bus stop, they are not the property of DB whatever they might think. A lot of stops have 3 signs along the N11, DB, Aircoach and Finnegan.

The Bus Stop,ie: the pole and any accoutrements attached or otherwise approved are indeed the property of the operator.

However,the road space remains the property of the Department of the Environment/Local Authority and is allocated for use by a Public Service Vehicle only after going through a full Planing application and approval process.

The Gardai retain the final approval in these applications and they do now carry out a inspection of all such applications before authorising them.

As trad points out,the operators he mentions all have gone through that process as part of the Route Licencing application,although in some cases the resultant Bus Stop allocations remain highly questionable,GIVEN THE SPECIALIZED NATURE OF AN AIRPORT SERVICE.

There may also be some confusion between a Bus Stop,Bus Terminus or a Stance.
While all three would feature a Metal Pole or Bus Stop sign,they are significantly different in definition.

This is probably more apparent in UK cities such as London where they actually differentiate between them by virtue of road markings and plates.

Rock Steady Edy

I have sympathy with Mr Patton having set up a quick and reliable airport service where previously you were forced to have to travel by car, adding to the stress of travelling.

Looking at his website, it certainly seems that it was unfair to offer a licence for the route on the condition that the number of drop-off / pick-up points were reduced and then offer a licence on a different basis to Aircoach.

Where I have less sympathy is the frequency of the service, his fares for children and the fact that that the service is not advertised at the airport, assisting visitors.

If your plane is due to land after half past the hour, it becomes likely that you might miss the on-the-hour service and you may have to wait a whole hour for the next one. During evening rush hour, say 5-7pm, the service from the airport used to be unreliable (I don't know if it still is).

Asking children aged 3 or over to pay full adult fares is ridiculous. A family of 5 return would be Euro 70 return, almost as much as a taxi. Unsurprisingly, you don't see many children over 2 on the bus.

Over the last 8 weeks we've used the airport 3 times and have stopped using the Patton Flyer and reverted to driving and parking, because of cost and frequency issues. In my opinion, it's not family friendly.

An Aircoach service offering a half hourly frequency and children's fares (or no fares for those under 5) as per their other routes will bring us back.

Cookie_Monster

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

I have sympathy with Mr Patton

Why? He's flouted the law in the interests of making a quick buck

previously you were forced to have to travel by car, adding to the stress of travelling.

DART and connection, taxi, 746, 46a+ bus from town. Lots of other options

If your plane is due to land after half past the hour, it becomes likely that you might miss the on-the-hour service and you may have to wait a whole hour for the next one. During evening rush hour, say 5-7pm, the service from the airport used to be unreliable (I don't know if it still is).

Las three times i've been in the airport it's taken less than 20 minutes to get to the busstop. Its unfair to blame them cos you're slow.

Asking children aged 3 or over to pay full adult fares is ridiculous. A family of 5 return would be Euro 70 return, almost as much as a taxi. Unsurprisingly, you don't see many children over 2 on the bus.

I see that as a good thing personally, last thing you want after a flight is a load of kids on the bus

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why? He's flouted the law in the interests of making a quick buck


DART and connection, taxi, 746, 46a+ bus from town. Lots of other options



Las three times i've been in the airport it's taken less than 20 minutes to get to the busstop. Its unfair to blame them cos you're slow.



I see that as a good thing personally, last thing you want after a flight is a load of kids on the bus

This kind of opinion is everything that is wrong with our transport system. It shouldn't take 3 years to meet consumer demand. The Kyoto Protocol is one of the very policy's that needs immediate attention. It shouldn't take 3 years to enable people to meet these requirements. Furthermore, your 2nd point about connections is less than conveinient because the Airport is a high priority when it comes to meeting consumer demand. In other words, people need to get to the Airport ASAP. Connections is anything but ASAP. I amn't really bothered by which operator runs the route as long as there is a direct route to the Airport and a frequent one at that. The end of your 3rd point about being slow is rediculous. The transportation in Dublin is a complete joke. We're not slow. It isn't our fault that many of the bus routes in Dublin take massive detours which lengthen journey times. Private operators are effectively cleaning up this transportation mess. Nevertheless, you are saying that we should tolerate it. I am beginning to think that you are a closet bus driver.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

This kind of opinion is everything that is wrong with our transport system. It shouldn't take 3 years to meet consumer demand. The Kyoto Protocol is one of the very policy's that needs immediate attention. It shouldn't take 3 years to enable people to meet these requirements. Furthermore, your 2nd point about connections is less than conveinient because the Airport is a high priority when it comes to meeting consumer demand. In other words, people need to get to the Airport ASAP. Connections is anything but ASAP. I amn't really bothered by which operator runs the route as long as there is a direct route to the Airport and a frequent one at that. The end of your 3rd point about being slow is rediculous. The transportation in Dublin is a complete joke. We're not slow. It isn't our fault that many of the bus routes in Dublin take massive detours which lengthen journey times. Private operators are effectively cleaning up this transportation mess. Nevertheless, you are saying that we should tolerate it. I am beginning to think that you are a closet bus driver.

I work in finance actually for a company that has nothing to do with transport, just have an interest in the sector. Why is my third point ridiculous? If you can't get to the bus stop in time then it's you r fault not the bus company. A bus every hour to Dalkey is enough and likely to frequent tbh, very rarely have I been on it when it was more than half full in either direction. There are plenty of other options to get to DL/Dalkey if you miss the PF

AlekSmart

It isn't our fault that many of the bus routes in Dublin take massive detours which lengthen journey times. Private operators are effectively cleaning up this transportation mess. Nevertheless, you are saying that we should tolerate it. I am beginning to think that you are a closet bus driver.

As an out-of-closet Busdriver,I would put it to Patrickbrophy18 that a lack of customer interest and feedback is a major factor in how our Bus Network is allowed to get away with what he is suggesting.

Take,for example the 746 Route from DunLaoighre to the Airport.
What should be a very desireable service has not seen any real improvement or application since it`s inception well before the Dublin Port Tunnel boring began.

Dublin Bus had quite significant plans to operate this route on a 24 hour basis,which were apparently approved,only for the Department of Transport to have a change of heart shortly afterwards.

Even minor efficency based alterations such as avoiding Monkstown Farm and Stillorgan Village were deemed too avant-garde for some.

More recently,Bus Atha Cliath Driver representatives suggested a restructuring which would entail running the 746 as normal to Donnybrook then via Sandymount to the Port Tunnel and thence to the Airport.
The intention being to boost the attractiveness of the 746 to South Dublin commuters heading for the Airport.

The company however feel the need to use the 746 as a form of catch all,a bitofa 46A and then a bitofa 16A in addition to being a dedicated Airport service.

All this policy results in is a service that instead of being all-things-to-all-men is very little to anybody.

It is all quite moot now anyway,as the current Dublin Airport situation is at best precarious and projections of 30 Million pax per anum may well turn out to be the stuff of NAMA :P

The real point is that Bus Users need to get far more bolshie in relation to the actual business of the nature and level of services being offered to them.....The days of accepting a version of a 1909 DUTC Tramway route as being appropriate in 2009 Dublin should be well behind us now..?????

patrickbrophy18

AlekSmart wrote: »

As an out-of-closet Busdriver,I would put it to Patrickbrophy18 that a lack of customer interest and feedback is a major factor in how our Bus Network is allowed to get away with what he is suggesting.

Take,for example the 746 Route from DunLaoighre to the Airport.
What should be a very desireable service has not seen any real improvement or application since it`s inception well before the Dublin Port Tunnel boring began.

Dublin Bus had quite significant plans to operate this route on a 24 hour basis,which were apparently approved,only for the Department of Transport to have a change of heart shortly afterwards.

Even minor efficency based alterations such as avoiding Monkstown Farm and Stillorgan Village were deemed too avant-garde for some.

More recently,Bus Atha Cliath Driver representatives suggested a restructuring which would entail running the 746 as normal to Donnybrook then via Sandymount to the Port Tunnel and thence to the Airport.
The intention being to boost the attractiveness of the 746 to South Dublin commuters heading for the Airport.

The company however feel the need to use the 746 as a form of catch all,a bitofa 46A and then a bitofa 16A in addition to being a dedicated Airport service.

All this policy results in is a service that instead of being all-things-to-all-men is very little to anybody.

It is all quite moot now anyway,as the current Dublin Airport situation is at best precarious and projections of 30 Million pax per anum may well turn out to be the stuff of NAMA :P

The real point is that Bus Users need to get far more bolshie in relation to the actual business of the nature and level of services being offered to them.....The days of accepting a version of a 1909 DUTC Tramway route as being appropriate in 2009 Dublin should be well behind us now..?????

Actually, most if not all peaktime 46A's do bypass Stillorgan Village which I admire Dublin Bus for as it makes a lot of sense. However, Monkstown Farm is still being serviced by all of them. This road is extremely narrow which occassionally leads to a situation where buses have to mount the curb to buy themeselves extra space to pass an oncoming vehicle. This leads me to 2 recommended options:

1. Bypass Monkstown Farm
2. Widen the road through Monkstown Farm

Option 2 is very sketchy though as Monkstown Farm is hemmed in by buildings.

Anyway, back to the main topic. At least there will still be a service to the Airport from Dalkey. I amn't really bothered by who runs it. Furthermore, I found out from Mary Hanafin's website that the replacement route will be half hourly. I amn't too sure what type of bus will be used though. The tri-axles may be able to get away with the roundabout [erm, squareabout].

AlekSmart

The tri-axles may be able to get away with the roundabout [erm, squareabout].

The tri-axles will have no problem with Dalkey`s Squareabout...IF the parking restrictions are observed by motorists....INCLUDING intending Airport bound passengers....!

Remember also that the Aircoach service need not terminate in Dalkey...it is merely required to SERVE the route.
It`s worth therefore looking at the routing taken by the BAC route 59 or the 46N nitelink.....

Rock Steady Edy

I emailed Dublin Bus in the pre Patton Flyer / port tunnel days to suggest a more direct route to the airport for the 746 (eg following the 46X which only ran once a day at 7.30am from Dun Laoghaire) or via the 7 route to Dublin and then northbound. They said they'd pass it on to Donnybrook garage, but of course never heard anything again.

The 746 is a complete disaster, taking up to 2 hours, with a timetable that is no good to anyone with a pre 10am flight, and virtually non-existent on a Sunday. The best thing about it is the 2 euro fare. The best journey time I ever did it in was 45 minutes on the last one of the day from the airport and a driver that obviously wanted to finish his shift.

Again, a bit off topic but I pass Foxrock Church every day at about 9.20am and there is the 9am 746 turning right, heading towards the airport from Dun Laoghaire. Virtually every day I see another 746 waiting behind the traffic lights at Foxrock Church, looking like it's about to start mid-route a few minutes behind. I keep thinking of the Circle Line Bus Company that accused DB of being put out of operation because of extra buses being put on route. But surely the 746 can't be soaking up that many extra passengers of Air Coach's existing Greystones route. Or maybe they're just keeping a driver on a phantom untimetabled bus rather than reduce staff numbers.

Finally, I note the Dublin Southsider says this week that the PF carries 2000 passengers a week. That sounds a lot, but when you work it out it's about 140 passengers a day in each direction. With 20 buses a day in each direction that's an average of 7 passengers per journey, bringing in about €50. Plenty of room then for some free under 5s, and half fares for children, who bring along their fare-paying parents.

Cookie_Monster

Rock Steady Edy wrote: »

Again, a bit off topic but I pass Foxrock Church every day at about 9.20am and there is the 9am 746 turning right, heading towards the airport from Dun Laoghaire. Virtually every day I see another 746 waiting behind the traffic lights at Foxrock Church, looking like it's about to start mid-route a few minutes behind.

It's common practice to start busses from Foxrock church in the morning rush hour to cope with additional demend that only picks up from the N11 on, no point running them all from DL. Most are 46a but obviously the odd one is a 746 to cater for those people running further than Mountjoy sq. A lot of 46a's also start at stillorgan or even ucd in the morning.

antoinolachtnai

The changes you suggest to the 746 are not really going to be viable, because they would put the 746 into direct competition with the Aircoach, and indeed, the 747.

Then, the 746 would lose its subsidy (meaning the price would go up) and the whole thing would just not be workable anymore.

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

As an out-of-closet Busdriver,I would put it to Patrickbrophy18 that a lack of customer interest and feedback is a major factor in how our Bus Network is allowed to get away with what he is suggesting.

Dublin Bus, not the consumers, are responsible for the strategic development of the Dublin Bus network.

Fratton Fred

Do they still run the 746X? They did bring in an express version which cut the journey time from one and a half hours to just 90 minutes (I kid you not!)

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do they still run the 746X? They did bring in an express version which cut the journey time from one and a half hours to just 90 minutes (I kid you not!)

the 46X, ran in the morning to the airport?
never remember a 746x

patrickbrophy18

According to Mary Hanafin's website, the Aircoach service from Dalkey will be up and running in the next month. If this is the case, will there be an announcement on the Aircoach site soon?

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

According to Mary Hanafin's website, the Aircoach service from Dalkey will be up and running in the next month. If this is the case, will there be an announcement on the Aircoach site soon?

They will surely make an announcement when they are ready to start.

Really can you not wait until that happens? Constantly asking the same question here is not going to make it happen any quicker!!!

dub_commuter

By the looks of the Irish Times today they have more problems than just the Patton Flyer, seems that they have problems with Taxi's illegal and misleading practices too.

devnull

Latest from Patton, a letter to send to your TD's, still going on about how much he hates the British sorry I mean feels Irish people are being discriminated against.

http://www.thepattonflyer.ie/LetterMinister.htm

I particuarly like this:

As both of you are aware The Patton Flyer operates under a Private Hire arrangement and therefore is not an illegal service. It is outrageous for the Minister to suggest otherwise.

:eek:

Fratton Fred

devnull wrote: »

Latest from Patton, a letter to send to your TD's, still going on about how much he hates the British sorry I mean feels Irish people are being discriminated against.

http://www.thepattonflyer.ie/LetterMinister.htm

I particuarly like this:


:eek:

why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about the Patten Flyer?

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about the Patten Flyer?

The only person who has a chip on his shoulder is Mr Patton himself.

After all, he is the one who seems to be trying to cloud the real issue by his prejudices against people who are not from Ireland.