Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

why do you have such a chip on your shoulder about the Patten Flyer?

Because it's an excellent example of the corruption, greed, willingness to ignore laws and ineptitude that is so prevalent in this country.

KC61

I think that everyone both here and in the wider transport arena agrees that the current licensing regime is a joke and the law is a complete ass. However it is still the law until the new Transport Bill is enacted which will see the whole process overhauled.

My issue is that every other operator has had to comply with it, except for Patton who went and invested in his vehicles before his licence application was decided upon, and decided to operate a service anyway. Meanwhile other areas (notably Castleknock and along the old Swords Road) were deprived improvements because the Dublin Bus complied with the DoT licensing dictats and did not implement planned service improvements due to the DoT refusing approval for them.

Similarly Swords Express took several years to get approval for their express service, and then set about getting buses/drivers. They have wanted to offer other services in Swords, but are still awaiting decisions from the DoT. They did not start the services regardless.

My fundamental problem is with the DoT. I have some sympathy for Patton for the wait in getting any sort of response from the DoT, but that doesn't excuse him from just flagrantly deciding to do what he wants regardless of the legality of the operation.

I find it interesting that he completely ignored the press before when they asked questions about his operation, and only now has started courting publicity after the DoT gave Aircoach the licence.

There is absolutely a demand for similar coach services to/from the Airport from other parts of the city. And it's important to differentiate that from the service that Dublin Bus provides, which is a bus service. The two can quite happily co-exist, but are not the same thing. People tend to forget this.

Many people will take a coach, but the notion of using a bus is quite abhorrent to them.

devnull

KC61 wrote: »

I think that everyone both here and in the wider transport arena agrees that the current licensing regime is a joke and the law is a complete ass. However it is still the law until the new Transport Bill is enacted which will see the whole process overhauled.

My issue is that every other operator has had to comply with it, except for Patton who went and invested in his vehicles before his licence application was decided upon, and decided to operate a service anyway. Meanwhile other areas (notably Castleknock and along the old Swords Road) were deprived improvements because the Dublin Bus complied with the DoT licensing dictats and did not implement planned service improvements due to the DoT refusing approval for them.

Similarly Swords Express took several years to get approval for their express service, and then set about getting buses/drivers. They have wanted to offer other services in Swords, but are still awaiting decisions from the DoT. They did not start the services regardless.

My fundamental problem is with the DoT. I have some sympathy for Patton for the wait in getting any sort of response from the DoT, but that doesn't excuse him from just flagrantly deciding to do what he wants regardless of the legality of the operation.

I find it interesting that he completely ignored the press before when they asked questions about his operation, and only now has started courting publicity after the DoT gave Aircoach the licence.

There is absolutely a demand for similar coach services to/from the Airport from other parts of the city. And it's important to differentiate that from the service that Dublin Bus provides, which is a bus service. The two can quite happily co-exist, but are not the same thing. People tend to forget this.

Many people will take a coach, but the notion of using a bus is quite abhorrent to them.

Great post - sums up my feelings totally.

Fratton Fred

devnull wrote: »

The only person who has a chip on his shoulder is Mr Patton himself.

After all, he is the one who seems to be trying to cloud the real issue by his prejudices against people who are not from Ireland.

He is complaining about Multinationals. i haven't once seen him say it has anything to do with them furriners who took our jaaabs. Seeing as pretty much all his staff are from eastern europe, i doubt he is in any position to anyway.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Because it's an excellent example of the corruption, greed, willingness to ignore laws and ineptitude that is so prevalent in this country.

Is it, or is it an excellent sign of an entrepeneur seeing a niche in the market and taking a risk in order to get something done? maybe if the Swords express had done the same thing, they would have a service up and running by now.

everybody is quick to point the finger at the licensing authority, but everyone seems quite happy that people sit on their arses and do nothing about it. Lets face it, if Trevor Patten had not done what he has, the people of Dalkey, Dun Laoghaire and monkstown would not have an airport service today, nor would they be likely to get one in the near future.

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

, nor would they be likely to get one in the near future.

:rolleyes:
Apart from Aircoach

Fratton Fred

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Apart from Aircoach

i doubt very much if Aircoach would have applied for the route if Trevor Patten hadn't demonstrated it's viability.

Tarabuses

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i doubt very much if Aircoach would have applied for the route if Trevor Patten hadn't demonstrated it's viability.

Why would you say that when Aircoach created the market for direct coach travel to the airport, long before its viability was demonstrated?

AlekSmart

i doubt very much if Aircoach would have applied for the route if Trevor Patten hadn't demonstrated it's viability.

Perhaps,but remember Aircoach had already an outstanding application with the Department which meant Mr Patton was asked to join the queue,something which the native Irish do not willingly do unless its enforced by crush-barriers.....

I most certainly do not hold a torch for Aircoach but in this case I feel they are the wronged party and Trevor Patton`s playing of the "Wild Raparee"card just does`nt wash with me.

Fratton Fred

Tarabuses wrote: »

Why would you say that when Aircoach created the market for direct coach travel to the airport, long before its viability was demonstrated?

and in all the years they were operating, they managed to role out a massive four routes.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps,but remember Aircoach had already an outstanding application with the Department which meant Mr Patton was asked to join the queue,something which the native Irish do not willingly do unless its enforced by crush-barriers.....

I most certainly do not hold a torch for Aircoach but in this case I feel they are the wronged party and Trevor Patton`s playing of the "Wild Raparee"card just does`nt wash with me.

Aircoach did not apply for a route from Dalkey until Trevor patton had. Tehy did have their Greystones route, but the overlap was very small.

January 2006 the Patton Flyer applied for alicence, nearly four years ago.

No wonder this country has a poor public transport system if it takes this long just to get a bus route in place. Heaven forbid someone would want to do something major, like build a rail link to the airport.

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and in all the years they were operating, they managed to role out a massive four routes.

Six actually

Ballsbridge - Dublin Airprot
Leopardstown - Dublin Airport
Cork - Dublin (Now extended to Dublin Airport for last month or so)
Dublin Airport - Belfast (Via Drogheda, Dundalk since earlier this year)
Greystones to Dublin Airport
Portlaoise to Dublin Airport (Axed)

It is sensible growth and ten years later they are still around, there are a number of operators who have started operating routes only to either expend too soon or go all out for everything too early that have not survived.

I'd call it sensible management.

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and in all the years they were operating, they managed to role out a massive four routes.

apart from the fact the devnull has pointed out it was 6, what is wrong with having only 4(6) routes?

It called sustainable growth, they obviously put a lot of research and effort into determining which routes to open, which will make money etc. This is why they are so profitable. A quick look on Wikipedia suggests profits of 11-12% for past few years. Pretty respectable in the transport sector I would think

AlekSmart

Heaven forbid someone would want to do something major, like build a rail link to the airport.

I think somebody did.....Jim Mansfield with his bit of an oul Convention Centre out in CityWest.....Would that fit the description....?

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=2975

And of course,he managed to pull it off in the end !!!

Fratton Fred

I'm really pleased for Aircoach. they obviously run a sensible operation. Still doesn't mean that Dalkey was on their roadmap.

As I have said before, i don't care who runs the service, but judging by the number of users i see on the coach, there is a need for it. If it wasn't for the Patton Flyer, we would still be waiting.

I am obviously being daft because an airport that serves 25 million passengers a year, on the outskirts of a city with a population of over 1.2million surely can survive with a massive 6 (oops, now 5) bus routes and therefore people living in the bottom corner of that area should just put up and shut up right?

Public Transport to Dublin Airport is shameful and operators should be encouraged to run services there, not have to trawl through a tonne of bureaucracy in order to provide a public service.

devnull

There are far more than 5 routes! Aricoach may only operate these five, but Dublin Bus have the 746/747/748, 16A/41/46X and Urbus runs from Blanchardstown/Tyrrelstown/Hollystown/Swords to the Airport, whilst FlyBus does from Tallaght.

Also the viability of bus routes and those running is not helped by taxi drivers who stop at stops unhailed for Flybus, Urbus, Aircoach and Nitelink stops and lie that the bus has broken down or there has been an accident and they will do the same price as the coach by taking multiple passengers.

The end of the story with these situations is that less people use the coach as they feel bullied into usign the taxis and believe their spin therefore the service looks less viable due to decreased passengers so people are less likely to take a risk and the services shut down due to lack of income generated.

End result is service closes, Taxi's then raise their prices to pre-coach service levels, therefore everybody loses. I've personally been intimdated msyelf for refusing a taxi when I was with some tourists at the Ballsbridge Aircoach stop.

angel01

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i doubt very much if Aircoach would have applied for the route if Trevor Patten hadn't demonstrated it's viability.

It seems to me that aircoach have established themselves and are surely looking for new routes to operate. They may not have a huge number of routes but the ones they do have are operated very well and have provided a sensible business model.

If Patten demonstrated how viable it all was, why would he turn down a license, in this industry, surely it doesn't pay to be too picky. There will always be another operator willing to take the route from you.

Fratton Fred

devnull wrote: »

There are far more than 5 routes! Aricoach may only operate these five, but Dublin Bus have the 746/747/748, 16A/41/46X and Urbus runs from Blanchardstown/Tyrrelstown/Hollystown/Swords to the Airport, whilst FlyBus does from Tallaght.

Great, next monday i'll nip up to Blanch or Tallaght so i can get the bus to the airport then.

angel01

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Great, next monday i'll nip up to Blanch or Tallaght so i can get the bus to the airport then.

so you are complaining there is no direct route from your house? :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

angel01 wrote: »

so you are complaining there is no direct route from your house? :rolleyes:

there is no viable route for me in the whole of Dalkey andDun Laoghaire, other than the Patton Flyer.

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there is no viable route for me in the whole of Dalkey andDun Laoghaire, other than the Patton Flyer.

oh don't be so dramatic. Plenty have been pointed out in this thread already.

or you could just Drive, parking is only 5.50 or so a day now.

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Great, next monday i'll nip up to Blanch or Tallaght so i can get the bus to the airport then.

I was answering your post about about your claims about there only being five services.

I should have said, Flybus serves Clondalkin and Lucan too.

devnull

Fratton Fred wrote: »

there is no viable route for me in the whole of Dalkey andDun Laoghaire, other than the Patton Flyer.

Hanafin has said the Aircoach route should start in December, but as far as i know this is not confirmed.

Fratton Fred

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh don't be so dramatic. Plenty have been pointed out in this thread already.

or you could just Drive, parking is only 5.50 or so a day now.

My flight leaves at 6:40 am and I often don't land until 11pm. Both the buses I use for these times are full, as there is no alternative.

I don't have a car.

Dun Laoghaire is a large town, there is no airport Service (ie one that allows passengers to catch flights before 8:30am and return after 10pm). Am I supposed to be happy with that? My expectations may be a bit high, but I also find the 2 hour journey times to go by bus or dart/bus for a 23 Km journey a little but rediculous as well.

dereko1969

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My flight leaves at 6:40 am and I often don't land until 11pm. Both the buses I use for these times are full, as there is no alternative.

Do Aircoach not put on second buses when they've filled up?

Cookie_Monster

dereko1969 wrote: »

Do Aircoach not put on second buses when they've filled up?

not from Dalkey as yet;)

Fratton Fred

dereko1969 wrote: »

Do Aircoach not put on second buses when they've filled up?

they are not full to the oint where you can't get on, my point is that there are a lot of people travelling at this time of day and the coach is the only public transport method of getting there.

I am grateful to Trevor Patton for forcing the issue and providing the service that he has.

patrickbrophy18

It's been well over 2 months since Aircoach were granted the license and there still is no sign of any announcements. I am beginning to think that Aircoach are going to boycott this offer due to the high level of resistence from Facebook! What do y'all think?

Run_to_da_hills

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It's been well over 2 months since Aircoach were granted the license and there still is no sign of any announcements. I am beginning to think that Aircoach are going to boycott this offer due to the high level of resistence from Facebook! What do y'all think?

Facebook and Utube the power of the people.

Did anyone see that vid about the Country & Western singer that took on United Airlines with a Utube hit over a smashed Taylor guitar and won.

patrickbrophy18

For all of you who claim they saw nothing on the Patton Flyer website about it being contracted out to another company, it is in the terms and conditions section of it. Furthermore, the amount of hostility towards Mr. Patton is astounding. It is beginning to remind me all to well of the level of hostility towards myself when I made up a thread of my own about a year and a half ago (Link is located below):
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055342732
On the positive side of things, if Mr. Patton does continue to run his service then at least I will have 2 modes of transport to the Airport at far greater frequency. I still think that Mr. Patton should have been awarded the license as he was not only there first but he applied for it in 2006. That is a year before Aircoach applied for their Greystones license.

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0215/1224264466925.html

Commission to look at department's handling of bus licence application
FIONA GARTLAND

THE EUROPEAN Commission is to investigate the Department of Transport’s handling of a route licence application for a bus service in South Dublin.

Fine Gael Senator Eugene Regan lodged a complaint about the department’s failure to award a public licence to the Patton Flyer, a bus service that operates from Dalkey to Dublin airport.

The route was established by company director Trevor Patton in 2006 and operates under private hire rules using an international road transport operators licence. The rules mean the company cannot erect bus stops, advertise in Dublin airport or on its vehicles or accept OAP bus passes.

Mr Patton said he originally applied for a route licence to the Department of Transport in June 2006. The department eventually offered the company a licence in January 2009, but for a reduced route with increased frequency.

The company could not accept the restricted route and in November the department awarded a licence to international bus company Aircoach, with the original, unrestricted route. They have not yet begun a service.

The department has said Mr Patton was operating illegally and that his application was not received until February 2007, after Aircoach’s application was received. But Mr Regan said the local operator was being “muscled out” despite the demand and popularity of the service he provided.

He said he lodged a formal complaint with the commission in an effort to resolve the matter. The complaint challenges Irish compliance with EU competition law in the awarding of bus licences.

A similar complaint made by the Senator in 2005 led to the reinstatement of the number 8 bus.

“For nearly four years the Patton Flyer has been attempting to secure a licence for what is a hugely popular and locally supported service. Instead of Mr Patton’s initiative being rewarded, his licencing application has been caught up in a bureaucratic nightmare,” Mr Regan said.

His complaint to the commission has been registered by the directorate general for energy and transport, he said. Mr Patton has made a separate complaint to the Ombudsman, Emily O’Reilly, in relation to the “administrative and policy failures” which delayed the awarding of the licence.

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0215/1224264466925.html

Best of luck with on him on this one.