Patton Flyer (mod warning post #404) SEE POST #659 ALSO

devnull

I guess the rumour and speculation will stop now as Aircoach have posted a news item saying the service is now operating:
http://www.aircoach.ie/news.article.php?ID=223

dub_commuter

Must have been wrong then,

A few questions
- Do we know what coaches they are using?
- Do they have their own bus stops now?
- Is the Patton flyer still operating?

It will be interesting to see how Patton will react to this, and what they will do, hopefully it will not turn into a dirty campaign against each other.

Cookie_Monster

The Dun laoghaire stop will cause chaos on that corner with the long dwell times.

Very late announcement from Aircoach too, I wonder why it was kept so quite.

devnull

I would suspect the late announcement had something to do with not wanting to give you know who advance notice of when it was starting to avoid any possible issues although the flash mob comment may have been tongue in cheek, I doubt they wanted to leave anything to chance.

No doubt we will hear Patton's reaction very soon.

dub_commuter

I feel this situation is long way from over, this may just be the beginning of it all, there is strong local feeling in Dalkey against Aircoach and even some people who will not use them from a matter of principal because of what they perceive as a local company being crushed by a big corporate giant.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some action or publicity from the local area, Patton, or Eugene Regan as they feel they are very hard done by and I can't see them sitting back and giving up just like that.

Interesting times ahead!

devnull

We will have to wait and see - it is good to see though that the new service will operate more frequently and does not discriminate against families like Patton's service.

I would say they must have bus stops up for the route - after all the fuss that was created about Patton not having stops - they would not be that stupid.

dub_commuter

There are Aircoach stops there yes.

Someone refused to get Aircoach earlier, because they were stealing Patton's trade in their words, so got a taxi instead.

Ham'nd'egger

dub_commuter wrote: »

There are Aircoach stops there yes.

Someone refused to get Aircoach earlier, because they were stealing Patton's trade in their words, so got a taxi instead.

Talk about honour amongst thieves:)

patrickbrophy18

I walked by the Aircoach at 9 o'clock this evening on Hyde Road and there wasn't a soul on board and it was a standard length bus and all. If people are abandonning it, I think it is way over the top. Standing up for local pride and risk missing a flight? Absolutely ludacris!:mad:.At least now there is a licensed route serving the area:D. If this continued, Aircoach might pack up their Dalkey route in which case Mr. Patton might be forced to cease business for driving (pardon the pun) licensed operators out of business. Then, we would have no airport bus serving Dalkey:eek:. At least the Dalkey Aircoach route has enhanced frequency.

In recent months, I started to have a change of heart. Having rationalized with the purpose of the route licensing system, it is clear that it stops unfair competition between routes so that one private operator wouldn't be duplicating the other or stealing stretches of each others business. While I admit that the Blackrock to Dalkey stretch wasn't a duplicate which I commend Mr. Patton for, I do realise that from Blackrock onwards The Patton Flyer was in fact stealing business from the licensed Greystones Aircoach route. dub_commuter, I cannot believe that you decided to opt for a taxi in upholding local pride. You have essentially wasted €50 on local pride, are you NUTS? You have cost yourself 8 pints of beer!

devnull

Will probbably take time for the word to get out. It seems the Aircoach services are similar times to Patton's so no doubt there will be a race to see to who can get to stops first., but it is early days and loads always do take a few days r weeks to build up.

What you are saying about the licensing system is pretty much how it is, it happens with all operators, not just in this case, that they want to keep one private operator of other private operators licensed routes, to prevent any problems. THis I suspect is why they would issue Patton a license but only with the conflicting stops dropped out.

Whilst the system does have it's failings at times, every other operator to date has had to put up with it and I feel that is where Patton made his mistake - he should have took what was on offer rather than trying to push for everything which was never going to happen.

Cookie_Monster

dub_commuter wrote: »

There are Aircoach stops there yes.

Someone refused to get Aircoach earlier, because they were stealing Patton's trade in their words, so got a taxi instead.

why didn't they get the Patton then?


... oh wait is it cos he scaled his service back and there way no coach there?

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I walked by the Aircoach at 9 o'clock this evening on Hyde Road and there wasn't a soul on board and it was a standard length bus and all. If people are abandonning it, I think it is way over the top. Standing up for local pride and risk missing a flight? Absolutely ludacris!:mad:.At least now there is a licensed route serving the area:D. If this continued, Aircoach might pack up their Dalkey route in which case Mr. Patton might be forced to cease business for driving (pardon the pun) licensed operators out of business. Then, we would have no airport bus serving Dalkey:eek:. At least the Dalkey Aircoach route has enhanced frequency.

In recent months, I started to have a change of heart. Having rationalized with the purpose of the route licensing system, it is clear that it stops unfair competition between routes so that one private operator wouldn't be duplicating the other or stealing stretches of each others business. While I admit that the Blackrock to Dalkey stretch wasn't a duplicate which I commend Mr. Patton for, I do realise that from Blackrock onwards The Patton Flyer was in fact stealing business from the licensed Greystones Aircoach route. dub_commuter, I cannot believe that you decided to opt for a taxi in upholding local pride. You have essentially wasted €50 on local pride, are you NUTS? You have cost yourself 8 pints of beer!

Aircoach only started yesterday afternoon. Just because there was no one on it last night does not mean that people will not use it.

Like any new service there will be a bedding in period and it will be the numbers of passengers over time that will count.

dub_commuter

I did not miss it myself, I was not waiting just saw people at the stop who purely did not take it because it was not Patton and they disagreed with having to use a British based company when the Irish based company in their view was cheated out of a license. They said they'd rather take the taxi and pay extra to the driver rather than get on board with a company with questionable morals!

I can see where they are coming from - I don't agree with it but this is the opinion some people in Dalkey are having as a consequence of what they have been told by Patton over the last god knows how long.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

I did not miss it myself, I was not waiting just saw people at the stop who purely did not take it because it was not Patton and they disagreed with having to use a British based company when the Irish based company in their view was cheated out of a license. They said they'd rather take the taxi and pay extra to the driver rather than get on board with a company with questionable morals!

I can see where they are coming from - I don't agree with it but this is the opinion some people in Dalkey are having as a consequence of what they have been told by Patton over the last god knows how long.

What questionable morals are you referring to?

That seems a very bizarre statement.

Aircoach applied for a licence and followed procedures and were awarded one. What's wrong with that?

devnull

Does anyone know if Patton is still running? He's Unusually quiet and not seen his services about?

Morlar

devnull wrote: »

Does anyone know if Patton is still running? He's Unusually quiet and not seen his services about?

They may be stopped while the airports are closed today ?

They were operational all last week (though it's now every 2 hours for some times I think) also there are no more return tickets only singles. The email address on the site worked for me last week.

AlekSmart

I was not waiting just saw people at the stop who purely did not take it because it was not Patton and they disagreed with having to use a British based company when the Irish based company in their view was cheated out of a license. They said they'd rather take the taxi and pay extra to the driver rather than get on board with a company with questionable morals!

Truly Bizzarre stuff,which will surely make the News of The World (UK Version).
If First-Aircoach deliver a service as effective as their existing product then they WILL be successful,no doubt about it

The questions of "Morality" causing so much hand-wringing to some locals is a far wider one and even a cursory examination will reveal that First-Aircoach conducted their business in a totally above-board manner.

In case it has escaped the attention of the Dalkey folk,First-Aircoach serve DUBLIN Airport.
Their vehicles are garaged adjacent to DUBLIN Airport and use Fuel and Oil upon which IRISH duties have been paid.

First-Aircoach are a fully compliant employer,paying a serious amount of taxation,levies and associated charges directly into the IRISH economy.
It has consistently re-invested its monies back into it`s service and without doubt deserves any success from this venture.

At this point there is little to be gained from a re-hash of the entire Trevor Patton story suffice to say the gentlemans actions and cavalier disregard for rules and regulations are somewhat at odds with any Morality arguement.

Is this a wind-up ???

Fratton Fred

now they have the licence, are aircoach obliged to run a service? what if, for example, they decide they can't make any money out of the route and decide to bin it?

KC61

Under the 1932 and 1958 Transport Acts there was no timeframe within which the operator had to commence operations, but the licence would have a renewal date. I would imagine that this particular licence was granted under these acts.

If it doesn't work, then they can withdraw the service and I would imagine that the licence would lapse.

For new licences, under Section 15 of the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009:

Subject to subsection (2), the holder of a licence must
commence the public bus passenger service within 4 months of the
date on which the licence in respect of the service was granted or
amended by the Authority.

(2) The Authority may at the request of the licence holder and
having satisfied itself as to the validity of the reasons for the request,
extend the period referred to in subsection (1) to a date that it shall
determine and shall advise the applicant accordingly.

(3) The licence holder shall provide confirmation to the Authority
of the commencement of a public bus passenger service within the
period set out in subsection (1) or determined under subsection (2).

(4) Where a licence holder fails to comply with the requirement
set out in subsection (3), or where the Authority becomes aware of
the fact that a public bus passenger service has not been commenced
by the appropriate date, it shall notify the licence holder that the
licence will be revoked on a date that is 14 days following that notification
unless the licence holder provides proof of the commencement
of the service before that date

The Act itself is located at:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a3709.pdf

devnull

Morlar wrote: »

They may be stopped while the airports are closed today ?

They were operational all last week (though it's now every 2 hours for some times I think) also there are no more return tickets only singles. The email address on the site worked for me last week.

There is nothing on their website or on their facebook group to suggest they are closed for business or are not running - if that is the case you'd think Patton would want to update his customers.

AlekSmart wrote: »

If First-Aircoach deliver a service as effective as their existing product then they WILL be successful,no doubt about it

The questions of "Morality" causing so much hand-wringing to some locals is a far wider one and even a cursory examination will reveal that First-Aircoach conducted their business in a totally above-board manner.

In case it has escaped the attention of the Dalkey folk,First-Aircoach serve DUBLIN Airport.
Their vehicles are garaged adjacent to DUBLIN Airport and use Fuel and Oil upon which IRISH duties have been paid.

First-Aircoach are a fully compliant employer,paying a serious amount of taxation,levies and associated charges directly into the IRISH economy.
It has consistently re-invested its monies back into it`s service and without doubt deserves any success from this venture.

At this point there is little to be gained from a re-hash of the entire Trevor Patton story suffice to say the gentlemans actions and cavalier disregard for rules and regulations are somewhat at odds with any Morality arguement.

Totally agree - it is all somewhat ironic that they are claiming that Aircoach are conducting foul play when it is infact them, themselves who are in the wrong - to their credit Aircoach have not gone shouting from the roof tops and engaging in any war, they've just got on with it like any decent operator would so so.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

now they have the licence, are aircoach obliged to run a service? what if, for example, they decide they can't make any money out of the route and decide to bin it?

They would be able to renegotiate the license I suspect, and if they didn't want to run it at all, the license would expire on the set date and could be applied for by another party?

patrickbrophy18

Fratton Fred wrote: »

now they have the licence, are aircoach obliged to run a service? what if, for example, they decide they can't make any money out of the route and decide to bin it?

As KC61 mentioned, it is a bedding in period. As long as people aren't deliberately boycotting Aircoach or stupidly investing money in taxis in the same vain, it should be viable. By the way dub_commuter, I am sorry for assuming that you were talking about yourself. :DWhile I amn't for a second saying I have no sympathy for Patton, I don't sympathize a business to the extent where I would end up boycotting the other business. That is pure stupidity. By boycotting one bus service in sympathy for another service, you run the risk of missing your flight or paying a large amount for a taxi. Hardly recession busting, is it?:D

dub_commuter

Patton is still around, an Aircoach was waiting at the first stop this morning nobody got on it and people got on when the Patton flyer turned up, also people moaning about the Aircoach bus being too big and too noisy and causing environmental problems, even a post on boards about it:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65733320&postcount=9

To clarify my point, I do not think it is questionable morals, but there are many people on the route who will not use it because of the fact they believe it is questionable morals, I don't agree with the views this Patton supporters have, but there are many out there that are doing so and are disgusted by what they see as a foreigner stealing from the Irish.

devnull

Patton has claimed on his facebook page he is indeed running.

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

Patton is still around, an Aircoach was waiting at the first stop this morning nobody got on it and people got on when the Patton flyer turned up, also people moaning about the Aircoach bus being too big and too noisy and causing environmental problems, even a post on boards about it:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65733320&postcount=9

To clarify my point, I do not think it is questionable morals, but there are many people on the route who will not use it because of the fact they believe it is questionable morals, I don't agree with the views this Patton supporters have, but there are many out there that are doing so and are disgusted by what they see as a foreigner stealing from the Irish.

Thank you for your clarification.

But I'd have to say that for someone who doesn't agree with them you seem to be repeating these views quite a lot here....

Cookie_Monster

dub_commuter wrote: »

but there are many out there that are doing so and are disgusted by what they see as a foreigner stealing from the Irish.

just as an aside.

Aircoach was Irish setup and owned for the first 4 years of its life until it was sold to First in 2003. This Irish concept is so successful that FIRST are looking at copying the model and brand in it other markets and in some cases have done so.

First are a Scottish based multinational transport company, operating in 7 countries (assuming the UK as all one country).

dub_commuter

The fact is that these people trust Patton and believe what he says so are likely to be loyal to him whether it is right or not, I am not agreeing with these people myself, just saying what apparently the word on the ground is about why people are unlikely to swap over, despite the benefits.

There is such a rumour that Patton knows he cannot be shut down, else they would have done it by now, and will very shortly increase frequency and decrease fares in order to protect custom, the Aircoach service would then end as they were being undercut and cannot make it pay and Patton could then apply for the license himself because there is no other operator.

devnull

As posted here before, could Aircoach not pursue Patton through the courts now they have started service and are illegally touting for business at Aircoach's stops?

KC61

dub_commuter wrote: »

The fact is that these people trust Patton and believe what he says so are likely to be loyal to him whether it is right or not, I am not agreeing with these people myself, just saying what apparently the word on the ground is about why people are unlikely to swap over, despite the benefits.

There is such a rumour that Patton knows he cannot be shut down, else they would have done it by now, and will very shortly increase frequency and decrease fares in order to protect custom, the Aircoach service would then end as they were being undercut and cannot make it pay and Patton could then apply for the license himself because there is no other operator.

As I said above I think we'll just have to see how the whole thing pans out.

Experience tells me that posting rumour or speculation here tends to lead to wrong conclusions....it generally is better to stick to the facts.

dub_commuter

Surely if the department were going to take him to court they would have done so by now? The fact they haven't indicates that there is a reason for this.

Indeed I will refrain from posting any more rumours, but just interested in where this one goes, as how Patton is still allowed to operate if he has broke the laws claimed, is beyond me.

Vic_08

dub_commuter wrote: »

The fact is that these people trust Patton and believe what he says so are likely to be loyal to him whether it is right or not, I am not agreeing with these people myself, just saying what apparently the word on the ground is about why people are unlikely to swap over, despite the benefits.

There is such a rumour that Patton knows he cannot be shut down, else they would have done it by now, and will very shortly increase frequency and decrease fares in order to protect custom, the Aircoach service would then end as they were being undercut and cannot make it pay and Patton could then apply for the license himself because there is no other operator.

So Patton increased fares and cut frequency when there was no competition but is willing to offer more for less to run Aircoach off the road and these deluded people are being loyal to him?

If Patton thinks he can force Aircoach off the route then he is even more deluded than his loyal supporters. Firstgroup did not become the largest bus operator in the deregulated UK market in under 20 years without knowing how to see off competitors, running the Dalkey service at a loss for months or even years would barely be a blip on their accounts. I am certain that before Aircoach started this service that was always going to be a head-on battle with Patton they had the full backing of the parent company with an understanding that it was unlikely to be profitable in the short term and a goal of seeing-off Trev before expecting profits.