Letter from chief super

medicman

hi there, here is a letter to my buddy outlining the reasons he was refused, anyone get one of there?.Holder of this licence for over 18months, member of a pistol club, p.s I know that Beretta is spelt wrong, is this a good reason to get the decision reversed? ha, i dont think so.

I have downloaded this as an attachment,hope you all can read it.



Regards.

medicman

P.P.S ALL, should my buddy appeal this or is he wasting his time?

Darr

is it just me or does that seem like the same reason written 4 times but slightly differently .
Does you buddy shot WA 1500 ?, as would have thought that is reason enough (maybe not but Im not to in pistols so not overly fimilar with reasons ) ..
Darr

Bananaman

What was his reason for wanting the pistol??

B'Man

rrpc

The first reason is a bit odd.

I am not satisfied that you have demonstrated that the weapon that you have sought to licence is not the only weapon suitable for the purpose for which you require it.

Too many negatives, but it appears he's saying that your friend was trying to prove that the Beretta was not the only one suitable and the Chief Super doesn't agree

Lots of use of the 'W' word.

There's a serious issue here with the use of 'the only one suitable for the job' reason for refusal.

If it's accepted that you have and use a centrefire pistol for a centrefire pistol sport, then it follows that the only one suitable is the one you own seeing as you can no longer get a new one.

So the crux will be to prove that you are and have been using your centrefire pistol for a centrefire pistol sport.

It's up to your friend as to whether he wants to appeal or not. I'm on record here as saying that it's a bad idea to give that sort of advice when all the facts aren't known.

rowa

i fail to understand several of the chief supers points e.g. "the size and shape of the pistol " and "the use to which it will be put " the size and shape have not changed since the last time he licenced the gun and also the use to which it will be put would also be the same e.g. target shooting on an authorized range .

it actually sounds like he is grasping at straws to justify his decision to turn down the licence.

Bananaman

Or the applicant may have been clutching at straws for a reason for needing it.

B'Man

pedroeibar

rowa wrote: »

i fail to understand several of the chief supers points e.g. "the size and shape of the pistol " and "the use to which it will be put " the size and shape have not changed since the last time he licenced the gun and also the use to which it will be put would also be the same e.g. target shooting on an authorized range .

it actually sounds like he is grasping at straws to justify his decision to turn down the licence.

It sounds more like a bunch of stock phrases being quoted from the "Bible for Refusals" - I'm sure there is one there, in the same folder as the "Guidelines."

Anyone going to a meeting with a CS should be well prepared and TAKE NOTES of what was said, as these would be useful should you decide to appeal to the DC.
P.

Sparks

It does sounds a little on the formulaic side.
Thing is, did the applicant get the pistol to have a pistol or did he get it to compete? If he was actively competing and using the pistol for sport, and he got a letter like this, there is the possibility (and it's no more than that!) that the Super might be seeking to have the DC make the call rather than doing so himself. Given the degree of animosity shown by the Minister and Commissioner towards licencing handguns, it might seem to some Supers that it would be a career limiting move to just grant centerfire licences without so much as a blink, but if they gave a weak reason, went to the DC and lost, then everyone wins in the end.

Mind you, it's a shameful way to do things.

medicman

hi all, very open letter all the same from the super, bman u seem very negative here, are u a pistol holder? the reason why he has this is its the one he has for comp shooting, centrefire and not rimfire. whats the point in having comps done for so long in centrefire and now finding that he cannot compete anymore.

Bananaman

The reason I asked those questions was the:

"I believe you already have adequate access to suitable firearms for the purpose for which you state that you require a firearm"

Makes me wonder what the 'purpose' he specified was and what other firearms he has 'access' to.

No Negativity intended - apologies if so read.

B'Man

rrpc

medicman wrote: »

hi all, very open letter all the same from the super, bman u seem very negative here, are u a pistol holder? the reason why he has this is its the one he has for comp shooting, centrefire and not rimfire. whats the point in having comps done for so long in centrefire and now finding that he cannot compete anymore.

Bananaman is referring to those people who got pistol licences and never attended their club. Anecdotally there must be hundreds of these as the numbers participating at club and National level don't add up to the total number licensed.

Bananaman

I, personally, do not see 'competing' as a pre-requisite.

Taking part in ad-hoc target practice and informal competitions within your club should be sufficient 'use'.

You should not be required to compete on a national or international level in order to be seen to be 'target shooting'.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

I, personally, do not see 'competing' as a pre-requisite.

Apologies, should have said participating or shooting. Competing was the wrong word to use. Edit made.

medicman

Bananaman wrote: »

The reason I asked those questions was the:

"I believe you already have adequate access to suitable firearms for the purpose for which you state that you require a firearm"

Makes me wonder what the 'purpose' he specified was and what other firearms he has 'access' to.

No Negativity intended - apologies if so read.

B'Man

no worries bman,
he does not have any access to other pistols, we think the chief super is referring to applying for a .22 pistol rimfire, he attached a list of non restricted firearms with the letter he sent, however, its centerfire comps we attend, who now will buy a 9mm if we have to sell ours?, no compo, so we are expected to give up these and go buy new .22's, the way the letter is formatted we feel like criminals here, we are like all firearms holders upstandning members of the community, no criminal record etc, the chief is looking at all pistol holders as would be criminals, is this fair? i think not.

As per using for comps, yes i aggree, it should have no bearing on the refusal, we use our firearms for the sport, we enjoy target practcing and do more practice than comps, so that in it's self should be enough

Bananaman

Go to the meeting on Saturday and see what the 'community' is going to do.

Smirky

@ Bman

Can you give more details (on thread or by PM) re the meeting on saturday that you reference?

Sparks

It's right out there stuck to the top of the page Smirky:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055729482

Smirky

Jaysus, Dog .... bite me! Cheers Sparks, need to get my scope out.

packas

medicman wrote: »

hi there, here is a letter to my buddy outlining the reasons he was refused, anyone get one of there?.Holder of this licence for over 18months, member of a pistol club, p.s I know that Beretta is spelt wrong, is this a good reason to get the decision reversed? ha, i dont think so.

I have downloaded this as an attachment,hope you all can read it.



Regards.

Don't mean to make light of a refusal but....... maybe your buddy should ask for a licence for a Beretta as he's been refused a BRETTA. Isn't it nuts that they can't even get the make of the firearm correct

Cass

What i don't like about the letter (apart from the use of the word weapon)is it stops just shy of slander. Stating that he took into account the safety to the public etc. He doesn't actually say that he thinks you will go out on a shooting spree but its implied in his wording and the excuse, should you pick up on it, is "its your inferral of the words".

As medicman and countless others (myself included) have being saying, its unfair. They are criminalising decent men and women, who have to go through a strict enough vetting process. As also previously stated (and i'm not talking about the laws and SIs) what has changed with the peson that has made him or her more of a danger or somehow less capable of possessing and firing the firearm compared to the last year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years or however long they have held a license for the pistol. If the CS says you do not have a reason, etc ask why were you licensed before. Ask did they make a mistake licensing you previously, as in if i'm so dangerous now why did i get the license before.

I have said on numerous occassions that it is not the shooting communities that need educated on firearms but the public, whose only source of firearm knowledge comes from TV. The last shooting in Dublin was all over the papers. The guy was shot with a shotgun yet the papers had a picture of the "Evil Black Glock" all over the front page. What do you think the public will take from that?

We will never have a united front as a single shooting community. Its not in human nature. "Once i'm okay then i'll help until it becomes a burden or a hassle if at all" seems to be a common theme seeping through. Not trying to insult people but, take all the licensees in the country. Now take from that the amount who shoot shotgun only, rifle only, have a gun for the farm, one they never use but keep licensed. Then lads that do not take part in centrefire target work. Its hard to give unwavering support for a sport you are not directly partaking in. I'm not preaching from a pedestal. I have never shot air rifle/pistol. Its a discipline i never had an interest in and while i would be annoyed for the lads involved should something happen, i would find it hard to "take to the streets" on their behalf.

I still maintain that the driving force behind the CJ(MP)A was the "banning", however it is done, of centrefire pistols. Its no secret. Take into consideration all or some of the factors above and you are left with a small group who in the end will be left to fight their corner on their own. I currently am locked in talks with a CS and Super and FO with regards to my licenses. I have asked for help and advise through my NGBs and was told to keep them informed of any changes. No such thing as "here is a number for someone who can help", " here is what you should do" etc. I feel isolated and ignored.

My own problems aside, medicman, tell your buddy not to give up at that. Others here have suggested to follow it through to the bitter end and this is only half way. You have the right to appeal and use it.

Anyway end of rant and sorry for going a little off topic.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

I currently am locked in talks with a CS and Super and FO with regards to my licenses. I have asked for help and advise through my NGBs and was told to keep them informed of any changes. No such thing as "here is a number for someone who can help", " here is what you should do" etc. I feel isolated and ignored.

:eek: I am surprised at that. Not going to ask you which one it is, but I really am surprised.

Cass

Let me clarify without going back on what i said. I have asked for advice/counsel on my position (its not just a straight forward application on one of the guns) and whether its ignorance, uncertainty, whatever its being going for 4 weeks now and i still have myself only to rely on. Like others its new territory for me, but i have a solid case ( i know this for a fact) but i'm getting stalled by the higher ups (Gardai) and no-one can offer advice. I've even contacted the FPU and 2 members of the FCP and they tried to help but could offer no exact course of action or practical advice so i'm still at a stalemate.

I'm not looking for someone to get a solicitor or barrister and kick open the doors and demand a result (its not there yet) but its frustrating when i cannot get a straight answer or at times even an answer (from anyone). I'm a bit pessimistic given the last few weeks goings on but there it is.

pedroeibar

Sparks wrote: »

...............there is the possibility (and it's no more than that!) that the Super might be seeking to have the DC make the call rather than doing so himself. Given the degree of animosity shown by the Minister and Commissioner towards licencing handguns, it might seem to some Supers that it would be a career limiting move to just grant centerfire licences without so much as a blink, but if they gave a weak reason, went to the DC and lost, then everyone wins in the end.

Mind you, it's a shameful way to do things.

You have got it in one. Methinks that this is the first of many such letters.
Big case of CYA
P.

rowa

i do think ( or hope ) its the guards trying to weed out the many people who jumped on the pistol bandwagon when they were released after the brophy case , i know, as i am sure you all do too , people who went out and bought pistols just to have one and were never seen on the pistol range after a while (when the novelty wore off ).
i don't think pistol shooting would miss these people as they done nothing for the sport but drive the numbers of pistols up needlessly .

Bananaman

i do think ( or hope ) its the guards trying to weed out the many people who jumped on the pistol bandwagon when they were released after the brophy case , i know, as i am sure you all do too , people who went out and bought pistols just to have one and were never seen on the pistol range after a while (when the novelty wore off ).

That is not true.

I did believe that was the case but I have seen some of the people who have been refused who are major participants and supporters of ALL the handgun sports.

I now believe that any information circulated, which you may remember from such infamous quotes as:

• 'keep your heads down lads, you'll get to keep what you have',
• 'throw IPSC to the wolves and the rest will be ok',
• 'disband IPSA or everyone will lose their licenses'
  and now:
• 'keep quiet - you'll be ok - you've been in competitions'

are all being circulated to blow smoke up our collective hole so that those of us who do have a case for owning a handgun, for use in sport, will wait quietly until the piano falls on us.

Believe none of it - your handgun license is under threat - No matter the make, model, calibre or action.

B'Man

shannonpowerlab

Sorry to say, it must be devastating to the owner but

Just looking at the letter...I must agree to the C.S.I's point of view...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

Or would we have a situation where bears charging at you and your rifle is jammed or empty...?

Double barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles are primarily designed for hunting.

.22 target pistols are designed to put holes on paper...

but...

9mm Berettas are not...9x19mm are NATO rounds...designated for military use...

I was initially awed to see large calibre handguns circulating in the market...

rrpc

Oh dear!

Dvs

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Just looking at the letter...I must agree to the C.S.I's point of view...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

You mean in the same way as who needs a shotgun and cartridges to shoot clay pigeons one at a time, when you could just drop a whole box full and break them.

:rolleyes:

Dvs.

Darr

wow kinda in awe at that post .. !!

am well let’s hope you never want to move to long range target shooting as more than likely it won’t be with a .22

and or that you’re not in to Olympic type pistol shooting but want to do a different version (not much chance of this now)

and or that you want to shoot VCRAI .

I don’t shoot pistols but some of the guys that do or did were some outstanding shots and to have their sport demonized by the government was bad enough to have it done by a fellow shooter through ignorance is worse ..

I started with a .22 and now want to move. I have an application in for something that you would have classed as military .. Should I in your opinion be refused this rifle .

Darr

shannonpowerlab

Dvs wrote: »

You mean in the same way as who needs a shotgun and cartridges to shoot clay pigeons one at a time, when you could just drop a whole box full and break them.

:rolleyes:

Dvs.

[MOD SNIP]

Well it is true if you like to hear the sound of clay breaking...and if it is a sport...Then you can also put holes through paper with a pencil...

Give it a bit of wiggle and would make a hole about 9mm in diameter...:D:D

We now call target pistol clubs "paper punching club".:D

Office depot has a selection of paper punches. It sure makes neat holes on paper.:D:D:D