Letter from chief super

meathshooter

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

[MOD SNIP]

Well it is true if you like to hear the sound of clay breaking...and if it is a sport...Then you can also put holes through paper with a pencil...

Give it a bit of wiggle and would make a hole about 9mm in diameter...:D:D

We now call target pistol clubs "paper punching club".:D

Office depot has a selection of paper punches. It sure makes neat holes on paper.:D:D:D

are you for real or is this some wind up

Cass

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

Sure just poke a hole in the paper with a biro, stand back and make a bang noise with your mouth while pointing your finger at the target. :mad: You can tell all the ISSF lads, benchrest, FTR, F-Class lads that they don't a gun either, the same "biro calibre/approach" can be used for all.

Or would we have a situation where bears charging at you and your rifle is jammed or empty...?

Won't dignify that with a response.

....I was initially awed to see large calibre handguns circulating in the market...

And what do you expect the WA1500 lads to use. .22 pistols, air pistols. THEY CANNOT.

Its an international sport and its my sport, the fact that the Government are so short sighted as to attack it and more so the tools used in the sport justs highlights their ignorance about sports target shooting and the people involved. Its a smoke and mirrors move to blind joe public from their ineptitude to tackle serious crimes and criminals.

Hate to say i told you so but does this sound vaguely familiar :

Originally Posted by ezridax

We will never have a united front as a single shooting community

Rovi

[MOD NOTE]
Some posts have been edited/deleted.

Let's cut out the personal jibes folks.
[/MOD NOTE]


[re-open thread]

Kryten

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Sorry to say, it must be devastating to the owner but

Just looking at the letter...I must agree to the C.S.I's point of view...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

Or would we have a situation where bears charging at you and your rifle is jammed or empty...?

Double barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles are primarily designed for hunting.

.22 target pistols are designed to put holes on paper...

but...

9mm Berettas are not...9x19mm are NATO rounds...designated for military use...

I was initially awed to see large calibre handguns circulating in the market...

Have you been hiding in a cave since 2004? We have been and successfully I might add been competing both Nationally and Internationally in Centerfire pistol sports. Take a look at http://www.nasrpc.ie if you dont believe me. It's only a huge international sport.

I dont have a pop at your sport, so dont have a pop at mine.

shannonpowerlab

Chill out, I was only joking about the paper punch stuff. I like going shooting myself too.

I also like breaking clays too.

But, as regards to large calibre handguns are concerned, I do think it is on its way out...Simply because there is no system to control who go shooting what.

Thinking of the culture here, who would want to go all the admin stuff to keep the track of which bullet goes where on which day? It is hell of a lot easier to ban the whole thing.

Sure it must be a great rush blasting massive bullets from a handguns and I respect people who put their time and effort to improve their skills in a discipilined manner but, there are people who go shooting 9mm pistols in the bogs and imagine what would non shooting enthusiasts think if they saw it? Should have come up with a system before allowed it to enter circulation.

Looking at the other extreme,

Lets take Japan for an example.

They like shooting as well. As result they made prety large industry out of toy gun manufacturing although a lot of those have gone bust. They are initially specifically designed to put a hole through a paper target from a range 10 to 15m.

There, there is no handgun allowed other than olympic designated models to a member of police/military forces and you can only buy ammunitions in the designated ranges and are rationed and the gun must be kept at a designated storage.

If someone (member of military/police shoots outside designated area the person will be put on trial regardless.

You can't take it home either.

An extract form a website:

"A prospective gun owner must first attend classes and pass a written test.[7] Shooting range classes and a shooting test follow; 95 per cent pass.[8] After the safety exam, the applicant takes a simple 'mental test' at a local hospital, to ensure that the applicant is not suffering from a readily detectable mental illness. The applicant then produces for the police a medical certificate attesting that he or she is mentally healthy and not addicted to drugs.[9]"

Then it goes on.

The police investigate the applicant's background and relatives, ensuring that both are crime free. Membership in 'aggressive' political or activist groups disqualifies an applicant.[10] The police have unlimited discretion to deny licenses to any person for whom 'there is reasonable cause to suspect may be dangerous to other persons' lives or properties or to the public peace'.[11]

Gun owners are required to store their weapons in a locker, and give the police a map of the apartment showing the location of the locker. Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked safe. The licenses also allow the holder to buy a few thousand rounds of ammunition, with each transaction being registered.

Well?

You guys have been extremely lucky so far to ba able to enjoy the sport so readily.

Just stop people shooting pistols in the bogs.

Valmont

Most see pistol ownership as a case of:

Some criminals use pistols.
Therefore all pistol owners are probably criminals.

Unfortunate that it doesn't make any sense really.

Out of curiosity, are any of the pistols seized by the police from criminals licensed? Is there anywhere I can find this out?

Grizzly 45

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Sorry to say, it must be devastating to the owner but

Just looking at the letter...I must agree to the C.S.I's point of view...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

Or would we have a situation where bears charging at you and your rifle is jammed or empty...?

Double barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles are primarily designed for hunting.

As a matter of fact..They were developed from fighting weapons in the last centuries.Every BA can trace itself back to a military rifle.The double shotgun was used as a combat arm,and still is in some poor places of the World.Ergo you have as all of us a" Miliitary weapon" as well.If you wanted a broad sweeoing atatement.

.22 target pistols are designed to put holes on paper...

And were also used for assination purposes by the USA,Britan,Isreal and Russia and are still used to this day.They are usually TARGET PISTOLS...
So should,these Unrestricted pistols not be restricted too as after all they have a military or clandestine use too??you never know!!:rolleyes:

but...

NO BUTS!!!!:(

9mm Berettas are not...9x19mm are NATO rounds...designated for military
use...

9x19, or 9mm Luger Parabellum to be very pendantic and give it it's correct name is a generic term for an ammo type,it is NOT NATO anything... It is also now the second or third most common caliber on the planet next to .22lr and the 7.62X39 Avotomat Klashnikovia round

rrpc

Valmont wrote: »

Most see pistol ownership as a case of:

Some criminals use pistols.
Therefore all pistol owners are probably criminals.

Unfortunate that it doesn't make any sense really.

Out of curiosity, are any of the pistols seized by the police from criminals licensed? Is there anywhere I can find this out?

Do you mean previously licensed and stolen or just licensed and used criminally?

The latter would be unheard of and no criminal would go through the process to get a licence.

shannonpowerlab

So was bows and arrows. Don't get too serious on small points.

You are right about 9mm para being abundant in supply. Because a lot of contries use 9mm para ammo as primary sidearm ammunition for military and police usage. mainly used by NATO countries.

Cass

You just don'y know when to stop digging do you?

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

But, as regards to large calibre handguns are concerned, I do think it is on its way out...Simply because there is no system to control who go shooting what.

There is, its called the CJ(MP)A, Gardi and DOJ. However much the laws of the land are or are not enforced is their responsibility.

Thinking of the culture here, who would want to go all the admin stuff to keep the track of which bullet goes where on which day? It is hell of a lot easier to ban the whole thing.

Its not required or mandatory to account for each spent shell. Say you do collect all you're brass. As a component you cannot have your spent brass and live rounds as they would put you over your ammo limit.

I respect people who put their time and effort to improve their skills in a discipilined manner...

Then why are you belittling our sport.

......but, there are people who go shooting 9mm pistols in the bogs and imagine what would non shooting enthusiasts think if they saw it? ....

The same as poachers with shotguns or rifles, they are morons and won't have them for long. Does not mean we are all like that and i resent the implication that all people with handguns are a danger or an accident waiting to happen.

Lets take Japan for an example.

This is not Japan no more than it is the States. Stop comparing us to other countries.

.......you can only buy ammunitions in the designated ranges and are rationed and the gun must be kept at a designated storage

Instead of designated ranges we have Restricted Firearms dealers. Not too many and the records they keep must be up to speck or they loose their licenses. As for designated storage, why in the hell do you think i've spent thousands on home security. My pistol is more secure here than at the range or Garda station for that matter, and the Gardai know i have it and where i live. My premises were inspected and passed.

If someone (member of military/police shoots outside designated area the person will be put on trial regardless.

If someone is shooting in the bog and are caught they will be dealt with apprpriately. You may get away with a shotgun or rifle but the Gardai have a dim view of pistols and will not tolerate any nonsense with pistols, not to mention its an excuse (if one was needed) to take another "weapon" off the streets. God i feel safer already.

"A prospective gun owner must first attend classes and pass a written test.[7]

Done that. Passed. Next.

Shooting range classes and a shooting test follow; 95 per cent pass.[8]

Done. Passed. Next.

After the safety exam, the applicant takes a simple 'mental test' at a local hospital, to ensure that the applicant is not suffering from a readily detectable mental illness. The applicant then produces for the police a medical certificate attesting that he or she is mentally healthy and not addicted to drugs.[9]"

My GPs name, address etc, my approval for them to check into my medical backround and my signature on my FCA1 allow the Gardai to do any of the above.

The police investigate the applicant's background and relatives, ensuring that both are crime free. Membership in 'aggressive' political or activist groups disqualifies an applicant.[10] The police have unlimited discretion to deny licenses to any person for whom 'there is reasonable cause to suspect may be dangerous to other persons' lives or properties or to the public peace'.[11]

All of which is done here. You think they hold onto your FCA1 (old PC20) for a few weeks/months just for the fun of it. Its so they can do a backround check on you.

Gun owners are required to store their weapons in a locker, and give the police a map of the apartment showing the location of the locker.

CPO inspected my premises twice and was given a written list of all my security features. Passed twice.

Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked safe.

Common sense.

The licenses also allow the holder to buy a few thousand rounds of ammunition, with each transaction being registered.

Every time i buy a round of 9mm my license is requested even though i have shopped at the same shop for 14 years. My details are logged onto a computer and stored.

You guys have been extremely lucky so far to ba able to enjoy the sport so readily.

You need a big cup of wake up juice if you think owning and using a pistol in this country was or is a breeze.

Grizzly 45

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Chill out, I was only joking about the paper punch stuff. I like going shooting myself too.

I also like breaking clays too.

But, as regards to large calibre handguns are concerned, I do think it is on its way out...Simply because there is no system to control who go shooting what.

WHAT T F??:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Thinking of the culture here, who would want to go all the admin stuff to keep the track of which bullet goes where on which day? It is hell of a lot easier to ban the whole thing.

Sure it must be a great rush blasting massive bullets from a handguns and I respect people who put their time and effort to improve their skills in a discipilined manner but, there are people who go shooting 9mm pistols in the bogs and imagine what would non shooting enthusiasts think if they saw it? Should have come up with a system before allowed it to enter circulation.

Looking at the other extreme,

Lets take Japan for an example.

Why???It is the gun banners paradise!! And what they dont kill with firearms they do with swords,improvised firearms,knives,or fighting dogs trained to attack their victims of crime.

They like shooting as well. As result they made prety large industry out of toy gun manufacturing although a lot of those have gone bust. They are initially specifically designed to put a hole through a paper target from a range 10 to 15m.

There, there is no handgun allowed other than olympic designated models to a member of police/military forces and you can only buy ammunitions in the designated ranges and are rationed and the gun must be kept at a designated storage.

Yeah! And only appx two dozen people,six of them police personel have gone postal and shot up Yokohama,Tokio,andsome other places.So much for that type of security.

If someone (member of military/police shoots outside designated area the person will be put on trial regardless.

Thats if they are caught and dont comitt suicide first.Remember that is a honourable way out in their culture..

You can't take it home either.

No,you just go home and kill your family with the finely made Hanto folded steel kitchen knives instead.Then yourself.The most common murder in Japan.

An extract form a website:

"A prospective gun owner must first attend classes and pass a written test.[7] Shooting range classes and a shooting test follow; 95 per cent pass.[8] After the safety exam, the applicant takes a simple 'mental test' at a local hospital, to ensure that the applicant is not suffering from a readily detectable mental illness. The applicant then produces for the police a medical certificate attesting that he or she is mentally healthy and not addicted to drugs.[9]"

Then it goes on.

The police investigate the applicant's background and relatives, ensuring that both are crime free. Membership in 'aggressive' political or activist groups disqualifies an applicant.[10] The police have unlimited discretion to deny licenses to any person for whom 'there is reasonable cause to suspect may be dangerous to other persons' lives or properties or to the public peace'.[11]

Gun owners are required to store their weapons in a locker, and give the police a map of the apartment showing the location of the locker. Ammunition must be kept in a separate locked safe. The licenses also allow the holder to buy a few thousand rounds of ammunition, with each transaction being registered.

Well?
Remind me never to set foot in that country.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And were also used for assination purposes by the USA,Britan,Isreal and Russia and are still used to this day.They are usually TARGET PISTOLS...
So should,these Unrestricted pistols not be restricted too as after all they have a military or clandestine use too??you never know!!:rolleyes:

I'd question their target capability. I've seen some of these so-called target capable pistols on the range and would not be impressed.

Grizzly 45

EXCUSE ME!!!!!:mad::mad::mad: This IS EXACTLY where small and fine points are very pertinent!!!You have come here with sweeping generalisations about pistol shooting.So now hear and deal with the nitty gritty on it.

Greenacre

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Sure it must be a great rush blasting massive bullets from a handguns

I am shocked that a fellow sportsperson could be so ignorant of target shooting.

There is no "great rush" and i dont go "blasting massive bullets from a handgun"

it takes great skill honed over many many hours on the range to hit the target at 50 meters with a target pistol.

I am there to improve my score, develop my skill and maybe just maybe if i'm good enough represent my country in an international setting.

it may not have been your intention but its safe to say you have insulted a large number of sports people with your ignorant comments

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

I'd question their target capability. I've seen some of these so-called target capable pistols on the range and would not be impressed.

high Standard Victor??ruger Target models??Remember RR they are shooting at max 10 meters at a human head.Not the 10X ring.:eek:

shannonpowerlab

Sorry I got carried away after a post about breaking clays in a box.


No don't set foot in that country that is why I got out of there.

When they say written test they really mean it. It is a kind of test you cannot pass unless you study!!! They make you sit 100 question exam for your provisional driving license for feck sake.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

high Standard Victor??ruger Target models??Remember RR they are shooting at max 10 meters at a human head.Not the 10X ring.:eek:

Never heard of those being used and I always thought the Israelis used the little Beretta for body shots, not head.

And 10m is for air pistol

shannonpowerlab

Greenacre wrote: »

I am shocked that a fellow sportsperson could be so ignorant of target shooting.

There is no "great rush" and i dont go "blasting massive bullets from a handgun"

it takes great skill honed over many many hours on the range to hit the target at 50 meters with a target pistol.

I am there to improve my score, develop my skill and maybe just maybe if i'm good enough represent my country in an international setting.

it may not have been your intention but its safe to say you have insulted a large number of sports people with your ignorant comments

As far as large calibre pistols were concerned, the "great rush" and "blasting massive bullest from a handgun" are kind of expression people used after some shooting sessions. Maybe I was talking to wrong people.
I should talk to you guys instead.

pedroeibar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

.......
As a matter of fact..They were developed from fighting weapons in the last centuries.Every BA can trace itself back to a military rifle.The double shotgun was used as a combat arm,and still is in some poor places of the World.Ergo you have as all of us a" Miliitary weapon" as well.If you wanted a broad sweeoing atatement.

That's a bit too inaccurate to be just a sweeping statement, G45. The shotgun was originally a fowling piece, grew through various guises for centuries and the cartridge had "birdshot." AFAIK it was not until 1914-18 that it became a military weapon for trench clearance. Even later, Greener had a singleshot 12g specifically made for colonial police use (Egypt, I think, were the initiators of the first orders.)
P.

shannonpowerlab

Greenacre wrote: »

I am shocked that a fellow sportsperson could be so ignorant of target shooting.

There is no "great rush" and i dont go "blasting massive bullets from a handgun"

it takes great skill honed over many many hours on the range to hit the target at 50 meters with a target pistol.

I am there to improve my score, develop my skill and maybe just maybe if i'm good enough represent my country in an international setting.

it may not have been your intention but its safe to say you have insulted a large number of sports people with your ignorant comments

Sorry I did not mean any offence to people who genuinely pursue the sport. I apologise.

Greenacre

No problem, the sport has had a lot of mud thrown at it lately and i'm probably overly defensive!

xesse

sorry b,man but i disagree with you on this one
IF everyone shot competition that their pistols and took part in nationals and the like i think the sport would have grown just as healthy as shotgun classes
if the sport was that big i personally dont think we would be in this mess to begin with:mad::mad::mad:

Bananaman wrote: »

I, personally, do not see 'competing' as a pre-requisite.

Taking part in ad-hoc target practice and informal competitions within your club should be sufficient 'use'.

You should not be required to compete on a national or international level in order to be seen to be 'target shooting'.

B'Man

xesse

i dont think you know enough about the sport to comment about c/f pistols if you say that you have never seen a 9mm pistol designed for paper punching:mad:
maybe you should visit a few WA1500 competitions
or google a sig 226 X6 or a CZ75TS
Or even a s+w 686 universal champion
Or merkle tuning
9x19 is designed for military use...so what
.223 is a nato round ... should i give up my hunting rifle too??

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Sorry to say, it must be devastating to the owner but

Just looking at the letter...I must agree to the C.S.I's point of view...Who really needs a 9mm bullet to put a hole through a sheet of paper...?

Or would we have a situation where bears charging at you and your rifle is jammed or empty...?

Double barrel shotguns, bolt action rifles are primarily designed for hunting.

.22 target pistols are designed to put holes on paper...

but...

9mm Berettas are not...9x19mm are NATO rounds...designated for military use...

I was initially awed to see large calibre handguns circulating in the market...

shannonpowerlab

xesse wrote: »

i dont think you know enough about the sport to comment about c/f pistols if you say that you have never seen a 9mm pistol designed for paper punching:mad:
maybe you should visit a few WA1500 competitions
or google a sig 226 X6 or a CZ75TS
Or even a s+w 686 universal champion
Or merkle tuning
9x19 is designed for military use...so what
.223 is a nato round ... should i give up my hunting rifle too??

Maybe I will.

xesse

the NASRPC has their full callander on the website

shannonpowerlab wrote: »

Maybe I will.

shannonpowerlab

I must agree.

Mertle Tuning defenitely looks like a purpose made paper punching machine...

rowa

to be honest i can't believe some of the statements i've seen here , if you have no interest in pistols and pistol shooting thats fine , just stay out of it and stay quiet please . why stir things up anymore than it is already , talk about divide and conquer :mad:

shannonpowerlab

To everyone in pistol shooting sport who has been offended by my comments, I sicerely apologise.

Rovi

Right, can we now draw a line under this particular line of discussion, and get back to the original subject of the thread?

meathshooter

xesse wrote: »

sorry b,man but i disagree with you on this one
IF everyone shot competition that their pistols and took part in nationals and the like i think the sport would have grown just as healthy as shotgun classes
if the sport was that big i personally dont think we would be in this mess to begin with:mad::mad::mad:

it wasn't giving a chance to grow it was used for political gain by Dermot ahern Fianna fail and the commissioner on their failings to tackle crime and I bet you will see them in the papers with a big pile of sporting firearms that where revoked as a smokescreen implying to Joe soaps the streets are safer now
but who are they fooling