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bans for false information

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  • 05-11-2009 1:22pm
    #1
    MrMicra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭


    Is it time to bring in a standard ban for posting false facts? It doesn't have to be long just public and clear.
    Post edited by Shield on


«1

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    #2
    omahaid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    What's your standard for "fact"?


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    #3
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    How would that work when someone confuses opinion with fact? (you see that a lot around here). Or if someone genuinely believes the 'fact' is true? Or urban myths? Or currency fluctuations cause a true fact today to be false tomorrow?

    The religious and scientific forums would have a problem with this too, methinks.

    You see the problems. :)


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    #4
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Surely "false fact" is an oxymoron? What are our standards for proof in relation to facts? What if a "fact" is both provable and disprovable at the same time - i.e. it's an extrapolation based on evidence which isn't entirely deterministic?

    People posting false information come under the scrutiny of the community and get annihilated by the community. People who continually post the same disproven or unsubstantiated claims will eventually be warned and banned.

    When someone makes an assertion, they don't have to be rigourously correct, they just have to show that there's some reasonable grounding for that assertion (forum and debate dependent of course).


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    #5
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,075 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    I remember seeing one the OP's "facts" recently, on the Rip-off Ireland forum, so I can see the irony in this thread.:pac:


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    #6
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    the conspiracy theories forum would be a wasteland...


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    #7
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Oryx wrote: »
    The religious and scientific forums would have a problem with this too, methinks.
    Why would science have a problem? :p

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #8
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    MrMicra wrote: »
    Is it time to bring in a standard ban for posting false facts? It doesn't have to be long just public and clear.



    You'd have to bin your siggie;)


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    #9
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Why would science have a problem? :p
    Every factual post would require links to appropriate double blind placebo controlled studies. ;)


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    #10
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Oryx wrote: »
    Every factual post would require links to appropriate double blind placebo controlled studies. ;)
    Have to learn to reference at some point :)

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #11
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    tbh wrote: »
    the conspiracy theories forum would be a wasteland...

    As would the soccer forum

    +1 for the proposal.


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    #12
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Ponders how this would be possible to implement in the science forum...

    Facts require proof and proof is for alcohol


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    #13
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    tbh wrote: »
    the conspiracy theories forum would be a wasteland...

    OR, it would be the only forum still working.


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    #14
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    I presume the OP is referring to cases like vaccination, where people regularly claim that vaccinations causing autism is an established fact, which is not in any sense the case.

    My own view is that it's not something that can really become a hard and fast rule (even I am not omniscient, after all). If someone posts something like the above, I ask them to show their sources or drop the claim. If they're forced to drop the claim either because they have no source for it, or because they cannot otherwise substantiate/defend the claim in discussion with other posters, then I'm prepared to make a repetition of that claim an infractable or banning offence.

    A good example of that is the claim in the recent referendum that Spain voting Yes to the EU Constitution in 2005 resulted in a rise in Spanish unemployment a few years later. The poster making the claim was forced in discussion to admit that there couldn't actually be any causal connection - indeed, stated that they had never intended to claim a causal connection - and a day or so later simply repeated the claim that there was.

    Obviously the method is unreliable, but I'm not sure there's a better method - everyone is allowed to make a false claim once, but if they can't hold it up in discussion, then it becomes an issue of mendacity if they repeat it subsequently. The advantage of the method is that it's available to any poster to follow the same path - challenge the false claim, and if it doesn't stand up, then bring any repetition of it to the mod's attention.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #15
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Come on, it's feedback, let's say:
    A little irate,
    Scofflaw


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    #16
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    even I am not omniscient, after all
    :eek:
    My illusions are shattered


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    #17
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    Some folks hold fact dear to their hearts which may not, actually be true. Perhaps message boards, such as boards.ie, is a good place to explore and learn.

    I come across many in life who believe things quite strongly and, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, are loath to agree their long held belief is not accurate.

    And then you have subjects (for example climate change) where some of the the "facts" are based on predictions which are themselves based on computer models which are not infallible. It's best guess, but some think best guess is, in itself, fact.

    Some think the holocaust is not fact, and while the evidence for their beliefs may appear that they are misguided, I'd be loath to ban them from expressing their views. The same can be said for subjects from christianity to homoeopathy to the best sorts of flower arranging techniques.

    While 1+1 always equals 2, its hard to imagine that much beyond that is fact that can't be open to different interpretations.

    Hard to define what constitutes a fact, I'd say, and boards is a richer and better place for discussing views, and would be a poorer place if different views as to "facts" were not allowed.


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    #18
    kaizersoze
    Registered Users Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭kaizersoze


    Anybody who takes what's posted on an internet forum as 'fact' is more deserving of a ban than the poster.


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    #19
    MrMicra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭MrMicra


    ConsiderThis wrote: »

    Some think the holocaust is not fact, and while the evidence for their beliefs may appear that they are misguided, I'd be loath to ban them from expressing their views.

    But what happens when 'debate' on boards about the holocaust is based on a set of falsified reports commissioned by an avowed Nazi?
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921823&postcount=17
    There is a link to Ernst Zuendel's website.
    http://www.zundelsite.org/faurisson/articles/the_gas_chambers_of_auschwitz_appear_to_be_physically_inconceivable.html

    A community develops on boards.ie that is worried about 'the Jews' not Jews, not Russian Jews, not 'the NKVD in the 1930s was Jewish dominated and...' but rather that monolithic entity 'the Jews'.
    marcsignal wrote: »
    Historians now generally accept that the Jews had a considerable hand in the rounding up and killing of Ukrainians by the Russians before the war...
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61193126&postcount=15


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    #20
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    MrMicra wrote: »
    But what happens when 'debate' on boards about the holocaust is based on a set of falsified reports commissioned by an avowed Nazi?
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921823&postcount=17
    There is a link to Ernst Zuendel's website.
    http://www.zundelsite.org/faurisson/articles/the_gas_chambers_of_auschwitz_appear_to_be_physically_inconceivable.html

    Thanks for your interesting reply. I have no idea who Ernst Zuendel is or a link to a thread on boards about the holocaust is relevant to a discussion about whether or not bans should be issued for false information.


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    #21
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    I think people that consistently make statements of fact without providing any rationale or references for their beliefs should be warned and ultimately banned if they change their habits, at least in politics and the science categories.


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    #22
    ConsiderThis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭ConsiderThis


    leninbenjamin wrote: »
    I think people that consistently make statements of fact without providing any rationale or references for their beliefs should be warned and ultimately banned if they change their habits, at least in politics and the science categories.

    What facts are there in politics? Do you mean if someone does not agree with your assesement that they should be banned?

    very little in this life is fact, and we shuld remember that it was once accepted as a general scientific fact, and accepted by the people at large, that the world was flat.

    Now, you may scorn at that, but homeoepaths take it as fact that their medicines work, I don't agree. Which of us is telling the fact, and which is not telling the fact?


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    #23
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,634 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Given that most posters use random internet links as back up to their facts, most of the userbase would be banned....


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    #24
    leninbenjamin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    ConsiderThis wrote: »
    What facts are there in politics?

    are you for real? The whole bloody thing is a game of numbers. Tax take, revenue, GDP, employment numbers, pay rates, welfare, hospital beds and so forth.


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    #25
    Turd Ferguson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,193 ✭✭✭Turd Ferguson


    MrMicra wrote: »
    Is it time to bring in a standard ban for posting false facts? It doesn't have to be long just public and clear.

    Yes okay, it now standard to ban for posting false facts


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    #26
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    MrMicra wrote: »
    But what happens when 'debate' on boards about the holocaust is based on a set of falsified reports commissioned by an avowed Nazi?
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921823&postcount=17
    There is a link to Ernst Zuendel's website.
    http://www.zundelsite.org/faurisson/articles/the_gas_chambers_of_auschwitz_appear_to_be_physically_inconceivable.html

    A community develops on boards.ie that is worried about 'the Jews' not Jews, not Russian Jews, not 'the NKVD in the 1930s was Jewish dominated and...' but rather that monolithic entity 'the Jews'.


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61193126&postcount=15
    As far as I know, most people of Jewish descent are entitled to Israeli citizenship.

    Would you feel better if those being accused of wrongdoing were called "formerly displaced Israelites"? Just "Israelis" in reference to current conspiracy theories.

    Do you think it is unfair for people to question Jewish involvement in atrocities committed both before and after WW2 due to the holocaust?


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    #27
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,855 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    74.2% of people would not be happy with this rule change.


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    #28
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    ConsiderThis wrote: »
    What facts are there in politics? Do you mean if someone does not agree with your assesement that they should be banned?

    You appear to be confusing fact with opinion.


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    #29
    phasers
    Registered Users Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    I think this would be great, if I hear someone state the "fact" that RTE were offered Father Ted and turned it down I'm going to hurl.


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    #30
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    MrMicra wrote: »
    But what happens when 'debate' on boards about the holocaust is based on a set of falsified reports commissioned by an avowed Nazi?
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921823&postcount=17
    There is a link to Ernst Zuendel's website.
    http://www.zundelsite.org/faurisson/articles/the_gas_chambers_of_auschwitz_appear_to_be_physically_inconceivable.html

    A community develops on boards.ie that is worried about 'the Jews' not Jews, not Russian Jews, not 'the NKVD in the 1930s was Jewish dominated and...' but rather that monolithic entity 'the Jews'.


    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61193126&postcount=15
    Originally Posted by marcsignal
    Historians now generally accept that the Jews had a considerable hand in the rounding up and killing of Ukrainians by the Russians before the war...

    FYI MrMicra, I can back up the above quote with facts from a respected acedemic. I have been studying the period, and the Holocaust in particular for 25 years, and I'm not in the habit of posting such information without being able to back it up.

    Incidentally, it's very sporting of you to use my quote, to badmouth me here and not give me the opportunity to challenge you.

    Just let me know if you would like to quit now ? or if you want to embarrass yourself any further, ok ?
    unless you're too busy looking for Nazis Under the Stairs or trying to set up some kind of warped form of 'Cyber Holocaust Denial Rules' for boards.

    Sweet Jesus :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    .


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    #31
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    its quite Straighforward MrMicra

    if you see someone posting something which you BELIEVE to be a False Fact

    you are entitled to call that person on it.

    however when that person returns to you with documentary evidence from a series of sources then Like it or not tis quite possibly factual.

    you can then ( and there is a very interestin discussion in the CT Forum about this) attempt to discredit that persons sources. this has always struck me as a very weak way of arguing a point, so if you do decide to take this route dont be surprised if people start to ignore you.


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