DART to run service every 15 minutes

Run_to_da_hills

I don't know how this will work out while sharing the same line with their extended diesel commuter and mainline service. Origionally back in 1984 wasn't the Dart to operate every 15 minutes?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dart-cuts-wait-times-with-trains-every-15-minutes-1934595.html

dcr22B

I'll tell you how, they've cut back on the Northern Commuter services.

Unbelievable!

KC61

That has nothing to do with introducing a clockface DART timetable.

dcr22B

KC61 wrote: »

That has nothing to do with introducing a clockface DART timetable.

Well, I beg to differ.

The Northern Commuter service has to put up with sitting behind DARTs in the first place and now most of our direct Donabate-Connolly trains now have to stop in Malahide and Portmarnock.

It's a joke TBFH.

markpb

dcr22B wrote: »

The Northern Commuter service has to put up with sitting behind DARTs in the first place and now most of our direct Donabate-Connolly trains now have to stop in Malahide and Portmarnock.

Alternatively, our Darts have had to be delayed and big gaps added to the timetable to allow your northern commuter trains to go past without collecting us :-)

KC61

Cutting back on northern line services has nothing to do with operating a clockface DART. It is perfectly possible to operate a clockface DART, Belfast, Rosslare and Maynooth service and maintain the existing levels of service.

The problem is as follows:
1) The sidings in Malahide are in completely the wrong location. When IE tried to put in sidings north of the station, residents objected. This means that DART services would block the northern route. Hence more DART services to Howth than Malahide.
2) No effort was made by IE to clockface the Northern and Maynooth routes - a wasted opportunity.

dcr22B

KC61 wrote: »

Cutting back on northern line services has nothing to do with operating a clockface DART. It is perfectly possible to operate a clockface DART, Belfast, Rosslare and Maynooth service and maintain the existing levels of service.

That's just my point, due to the clockface arrangements in place, we now have one less rush hour train home north and our already overcrowded trains will also have to stop in Portmarnock and Malahide despite their already improving situation.

The Northern service is not maintaining its existing level of service, let alone the obvious fact that it's not even in service at present.

KC61

Again, you're missing the point. The change in the Northern Line schedules - i.e. the half hour gap in the evening peak - is not due to the clockface DART - it is perfectly possible to maintain the existing Northern line services within the confines of the clockface DART.

It is down to IE management not making the other services clockface, and choosing to make it haphazard.

There is a BIG difference.

dcr22B

KC61 wrote: »

Again, you're missing the point. The change in the Northern Line schedules - i.e. the half hour gap in the evening peak - is not due to the clockface DART - it is perfectly possible to maintain the existing Northern line services within the confines of the clockface DART.

It is down to IE management not making the other services clockface, and choosing to make it haphazard.

There is a BIG difference.

Fair enough, you normally know your stuff around here better than I do.

I'm just annoyed that an already overcrowded and slow service (due to being hemmed in behind DARTs when it would be much easier to delay a DART and let us run ahead unimpeded) now has to make additional stops for Malahide and Portmarnock residents who will already be benefitting from an improved DART service. Our trains are going to become even more packed and if somebody from Malahide or Portmarnock tries their best to get on an already packed citybound commuter train, there will be trouble (albeit not caused by myself and not the fault of said commuter either).

Sometimes I wonder what those in scheduling actually think about when they're instigating these changes.

Tipsy Mac

They should put an express Howth or Portmarnock train on that only stops at every 3rd station from Pearse, there's too much doubling up on the service and would result in faster service for those going past Howth Junction.

Rashers72

As far as I can tell, all journey times on the Northern suburban line have got longer. This is on top of the additional minutes added in the last few years. Sitting behind DARTs between Malahide and Connolly is now the norm.

These extra stops (with the longer journey times) now added will start to make the overall service unattractive in the medium term, especially if the 33X service gets extended.
If that happens, I would expect a lot of passengers from the Rush and Lusk direction to keep with the 33X. And IE look to have spent a significant sum on expanding the station car park at Rush and Lusk - it's huge! What a waste of money if they then go and make the journey times unattractive.
Time will tell.

Maldini2706

Are there any plans to extend the DART beyond Malahide? It would make sense to go out to Balbriggan, the lines are already there, surely it can't cost that much to electrify them.

Rashers72

Yes, there are plans. It's all linked with the Interconnector. Details on the Irish Rail website. It's a minimum of 3-5 years away, at the earliest.
But as been mentioned here previously, the extension of the DART to Balbriggan is linked to a huge capital spend by the government, and every day that becomes a little less likely. However, heres hoping!

paulm17781

dcr22B wrote: »

I'm just annoyed that an already overcrowded and slow service (due to being hemmed in behind DARTs when it would be much easier to delay a DART and let us run ahead unimpeded) now has to make additional stops for Malahide and Portmarnock residents who will already be benefitting from an improved DART service.

Why not get the DART to Malahide / Portmarnock and wait there for your train? You will then benefit from the more frequent DART service, won't have to wait in the city centre as long and all the people going to Malahide / Portmarnock will be off the train.

Captain Chaos

I really can't see the point of extending the DART north of Malahide. If so it means slow DART services will block up the nothern line of Commuter and Enterprise services for longer. Unless they quad track the line which is impossible or add alot of passing loops like the one being installed at Clongriffen station.

That and the manner in which the DARTs are driven needs a major kick in the rear, they are capable of far higher performance than the manner of which they saunter around lately. Ever get one of the semi fast services in the evening that go non-stop from Clontarf to Howth Junction, they can move when they need to but there seems to be a new speed restriction just before Killester station north bound, every DART for the past few weeks slows drastically and then spped up there.

And the new safety signaling equipment is really hampering them. The amount of times they are forced to make slow approaches into stations because of the ATP system, the breaks just slam on and and alot of people go flying inside, the driver accelerates again and ATP decides to slam back on. It's far to over protective of a system.

dcr22B

paulm17781 wrote: »

Why not get the DART to Malahide / Portmarnock and wait there for your train? You will then benefit from the more frequent DART service, won't have to wait in the city centre as long and all the people going to Malahide / Portmarnock will be off the train.

Not such a bad idea but I might just stick with the 33X if they decide to keep it on for us after 16th November.

Cool Mo D

The improved timetable is a start, but it's not enough. For one thing, neither Howth nor Malahide branches get the full regular clockface service

For one thing, the timetable is far too slow. There's always a huge wait to get into Connolly especially. It should be no problem to have a 20 minute run Malahide to Connolly, stopping at all stations. There's only a few between Howth Junction and town anyway.

There should be clockface on Maynooth, DART and Northern commuter anyway - a better timetable would be 6 DARTs an hour, 2 Northern, 3 Maynooth, and an Enterprise:
4 Howth to Bray every 15 mins
1 Malahide to Greystones
1 Howth to Greystones
2 Northern commuter, stopping at Portmarnock, Howth Junction, and Malahide - Balanced so that Malahide and Portmarnock get a roughly 20 minute service with DART included
3 Maynooth clockface every 20 minutes
1 Enterprise.

It should only take a DART 15 mins to reach HJ from Connolly. Send the Northern Commuters out 10 minutes after a Howth Dart, and let them floor it to there. The same with the Enterprise.
A few long passing loops in open country around Balbriggan, and Skerries, and the Enterprise can run at a proper pace too.

Northern commuters might object to the extra stops, but with good timetabling to prevent being stuck behind a DART, and some serious attention being paid to cutting running times, and reducing dwell times at stations, I think that journey times can be improved.

Another option at late evenings and sundays would be to run Howth-Howth Junction as a shuttle with DARTs going to Malahide, to keep up service on the branches with less trains

KC61

The fundamental problem with this is the lack of siding space north of Malahide to accomodate DART trains between journeys - something that Iarnrod Eireann wanted to install but which was rejected by local residents!!

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

The fundamental problem with this is the lack of siding space north of Malahide to accomodate DART trains between journeys - something that Iarnrod Eireann wanted to install but which was rejected by local residents!!

Why did they object and would it be worthwhile for IR to re-apply as an SRP?

Maldini2706

Rashers72 wrote: »

Yes, there are plans. It's all linked with the Interconnector. Details on the Irish Rail website. It's a minimum of 3-5 years away, at the earliest.
But as been mentioned here previously, the extension of the DART to Balbriggan is linked to a huge capital spend by the government, and every day that becomes a little less likely. However, heres hoping!

Ah of course, our government's decision to go against all economic logic and save our way out of a recession.

While we're on the subject of extensions why did they stop Metro West at Dardistown? They could extend it to Baldoyle or Howth Junction pretty easily given it's only a couple of kilometres and it passes through mostly unused land. There's been a huge rise in population in that area over the lasr 3 or 4 years.

mikemac

KC61 wrote: »

The fundamental problem with this is the lack of siding space north of Malahide to accomodate DART trains between journeys - something that Iarnrod Eireann wanted to install but which was rejected by local residents!!

I don't know the reasons why but from what I've read here it could improve services for thousands of commuters.

Compulsory purchase orders have been used for less.
And if Irish Rail own the land is there no process to fastrack projects?

KC61

It certainly would as it would mean that a DART could temporarily move out of the way to let an Enterprise or Northern line service pass, and then the DART could easily move back onto the platform for it's next journey.

At the moment for this to happen, the driver needs to switch ends, reverse the DART into the sidings south of Malahide, switch ends again and bring the train back to the platform and then switch ends a third time before heading south.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

Why did they object and would it be worthwhile for IR to re-apply as an SRP?

I don't know the reasons, but it was (I believe) residents of the apartments north of the station that objected.

loyatemu

KC61 wrote: »

It certainly would as it would mean that a DART could temporarily move out of the way to let an Enterprise or Northern line service pass, and then the DART could easily move back onto the platform for it's next journey.

At the moment for this to happen, the driver needs to switch ends, reverse the DART into the sidings south of Malahide, switch ends again and bring the train back to the platform and then switch ends a third time before heading south.

sounds like they need to employ a "shunter" type person to just stay in Malahide all day and perform the reversing movements. Would probably be a simpler solution than building new sidings...

Cookie_Monster

loyatemu wrote: »

sounds like they need to employ a "shunter" type person to just stay in Malahide all day and perform the reversing movements. Would probably be a simpler solution than building new sidings...

or just stick some wing mirrors on the DARTs:pac:

KC61

It's not the staff issue - it's the time taken and the blocking of both tracks that is required to effect the movements. It takes far too long and causes too much disruption.

That quite simply is why there is not an equal spread of clockface DART services between Howth and Malahide.

dowlingm

For those proposing to ram through quad tracking - if it were not for the number of well heeled folks in North Dublin DUB would have a second runway and Portmarnock GC would have women members. Scaring off IE would be water off a duck's back

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

It's not the staff issue - it's the time taken and the blocking of both tracks that is required to effect the movements. It takes far too long and causes too much disruption.

That quite simply is why there is not an equal spread of clockface DART services between Howth and Malahide.

it would take, what, about 20 seconds to move a DART across the track into the siding... and another 20 to get back to platform. Seen as the gap required between trains is much larger than this anyway I fail to see the issue

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it would take, what, about 20 seconds to move a DART across the track into the siding... and another 20 to get back to platform. Seen as the gap required between trains is much larger than this anyway I fail to see the issue

I am afraid that it takes far more than that - the whole set up is wrong at Malahide and does not lend itself to efficient operation in which high frequencies can be maintained. There are signalling implications, drivers switching ends several times, blockages on both tracks. The move to the sidings takes on average one minute, but you have to add three/four minutes for a driver to switch ends after arriving at the station.

All of this would be eliminated by having a siding at the northern end of the station. A one minute station stop would then be followed by a one minute move to the siding.

I am not trying to be smart here, but it is not as easy as you suggest.

Hungerford

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it would take, what, about 20 seconds to move a DART across the track into the siding... and another 20 to get back to platform. Seen as the gap required between trains is much larger than this anyway I fail to see the issue

It's a much longer procedure than that. The driver has to switch ends, inform CTC of his intentions, wait for them to give him clearance and proceed at shunting pace into the siding.

And repeat to get back into the platform. Each shunting move also blocks both lines until the Dart is fully in the siding.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

I am afraid that it takes far more than that

I'm talking about if the built the sidings at the other end of the platform, surely this would simplify it greatly?

Hungerford wrote: »

It's a much longer procedure than that. The driver has to switch ends,

the mirrors would solve that:p

Run_to_da_hills

I would totally disagree with any type of bypass siding being used on a very busy suburban rail. It gives room for accidents caused by human error no matter how fool proof the system is. Down the country such as the WC wouldn't be so bad as there would be less traffic.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm talking about if the built the sidings at the other end of the platform, surely this would simplify it greatly?

I think that was the point that I was making all along???

That's the problem - local residents objected!!

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the mirrors would solve that:p

I don't think that would comply with railway safety regulations somehow!

ixoy

dcr22B wrote: »

Our trains are going to become even more packed and if somebody from Malahide or Portmarnock tries their best to get on an already packed citybound commuter train, there will be trouble (albeit not caused by myself and not the fault of said commuter either).

Well I'll make no apologies for pushing on! With the new schedule the gap would be 46 minutes if we only took a DART at rush hour. There's two Northern line trains in a row between the 17:51 and 18:37 before another Malahide-bound DART. The train I used to get at rush hour is now a Northern Line engine so I'll have to get that.

As it stands right now, we got a pretty poor service out to here for a station on the DART line. It's interesting to see that there's actually a reason behind it as well related to local whining.

Carawaystick

I though the only residents north of the station were Herons and those expat brent geese...

those fine boys ad girl ins the Supreme court reckoned it's alright to cpo a part of O'Connell St in Dublin to build a shopping centre, those unaquainted with the area might be interested to know there are already a few shops about the area. surely actual infrastructure should ail through the cpo processes...

patrickbrophy18

While I think that 15 minutely is a massive change in the timetable, I do think that on peak times, 15 minutely won't suffice. There has been a considerably drawback as a result of this new timetable regime. Stations such as Glenageary and Dalkey aren't being serviced by the Commuter branded trains which only operate as far as Bray. The morning Balbriggan service only calls at Dalkey and no longer calls at Glenageary or Sandycove/Glasthule. These trains could serve to cut the 15 minute wait in half at peak times. There is quite a significant accumulation at the aforementioned stops and a 15 minute wait could pose a strain on these stops. Commuter trains operating between Bray and Drogheda/Maynooth have DART like journey lengths. As such, they could afford an extra stop or two for the stations in question. Would anyone agree with me on this?

Captain Chaos

Its at least 15mins at all time and even more frequent on peak times. Even in the morning rush with DARTs 5 mins apart it can be hell. Even at my local station with a DART just gone there can my up to 60 people there waiting within a few mins.

MysticalSoul

ixoy wrote: »

Well I'll make no apologies for pushing on! With the new schedule the gap would be 46 minutes if we only took a DART at rush hour. There's two Northern line trains in a row between the 17:51 and 18:37 before another Malahide-bound DART. The train I used to get at rush hour is now a Northern Line engine so I'll have to get that.

As it stands right now, we got a pretty poor service out to here for a station on the DART line. It's interesting to see that there's actually a reason behind it as well related to local whining.

I am in the same boat. I currently get the 8.12am DART from Portmarnock, which will now leave at 8.19am, and seeing as I have close to a 20 min walk to work from either Pearse or Grand Canal Dock, I will be getting the commuter train, which is scheduled to stop in Portmarnock at 8.05am.