The not-so-civil Civil War

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

im not one for reporting posts and im well aware which side moderators sit when it comes to debating the public sector

Well then don't accuse me of a personal attack. Personal attacks as you are well aware are not permitted.

Your comments on the Moderators i don't really understand. Its a bit cryptic for me.

bonkey

Enough of the Punch-and-Judy, lads. Thanks.

Back on topic.

Rob67

I would prefer a reasoned debate on the issues I have raised too.

Paulzx

I agree broadly with a lot of the sentiments you have expressed. For the record i am a frontline public sector worker emplyed by the Emergency Services.
I am not stupid enough to suggest there are not serious problems of wastage within the public services. Of course there is and they should have been tackled 5 years ago. The lack of backbone of our elected elite ensured nothing was done and now we have serious crisis management in operation.

My problem is that black and white statistics on paper are being used to tar 350,000 workers with the same brush. This enevitably leaves people who bust their asses day in and day out for modest pay rates embittered and angry. I don't want thanks or a pat on the back. I get paid wages to do a job to the best of my ability. It pisses me off when i'm lumped in by default with the Fas fat cats and incompetants. I am not a bloody statistic on paper.

irish_bob

Paulzx wrote: »

I agree broadly with a lot of the sentiments you have expressed. For the record i am a frontline public sector worker emplyed by the Emergency Services.
I am not stupid enough to suggest there are not serious problems of wastage within the public services. Of course there is and they should have been tackled 5 years ago. The lack of backbone of our elected elite ensured nothing was done and now we have serious crisis management in operation.

My problem is that black and white statistics on paper are being used to tar 350,000 workers with the same brush. This enevitably leaves people who bust their asses day in and day out for modest pay rates embittered and angry. I don't want thanks or a pat on the back. I get paid wages to do a job to the best of my ability. It pisses me off when i'm lumped in by default with the Fas fat cats and incompetants. I am not a bloody statistic on paper.

why not be gratefull that you are not one of the quater of a million who have lost thier job in the past eighteen months and that you are paid more than anywhere else in europe for what you do , you are no victim

Paulzx

irish_bob wrote: »

why not be gratefull that you are not one of the quater of a million who have lost thier job in the past eighteen months and that you are paid more than anywhere else in europe for what you do , you are no victim

Sorry Rob67, but i hate to say i told you so. Ah well, you made a valiant effort to try and bring a thread down a different route but the same old thread hoggers have appeared and have no interest in anything anyone else says. Their agenda is the only one.

Best of luck with the rest of the thread Rob67

Tony46

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

Rantan

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

well if he lives in Dublin he had better wait until Monday to have that fall - 1,000 gardai and emergency workers are on the streets again today!!

For whats it worth - I agree with you that people in the emergency services deserve every penny they get, you do a tough job and do it very well I might add, from any experiences I have ever had(maybe with the exception of one or two gardai)
But I also think I deserve every penny I get too but I'll still be on the dole in two weeks and theres nothing I can do about it. I'd gladly accept a pay cut to save my job but the work is not there. I've worked in construction all my life and would like to think that my small contribution to the roads, bridges, pipelines that help your ambulaces and fire engines get around has had a positive impact on society also. Its not a question of whether you deserve it or not, its a question of it just not being there to give you.
There was a guy from the emergencxy services body on the radio (cant remember his name)this morning and his line to the governemt was "do what you you have to do but leave us alone". That is the attitude that is angering people like me.

irish_bob

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

as for how hard you work , i seriously doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but i know for a fact , you earn far more

Paulzx

Rantan wrote: »

well if he lives in Dublin he had better wait until Monday to have that fall - 1,000 gardai and emergency workers are on the streets again today!!

.

Anyone marching today will be off work on rest days. Speaking for firefighters we will have people marching who worked last night or are going in tonight after the march. Nobody who is due to work today will be marching but will be doing what they are paid to do i.e provide a service to the people of Dublin City.

I have great sympathy with your situation and can understand perfectly your sentiments. I hope your prospects of getting work improve soon. You too are in this position through no fault of your own

Rantan

Paulzx wrote: »

Anyone marching today will be off work on rest days. Speaking for firefighters we will have people marching who worked last night or are going in tonight after the march. Nobody who is due to work today will be marching but will be doing what they are paid to do i.e provide a service to the people of Dublin City.

I have great sympathy with your situation and can understand perfectly your sentiments. I hope your prospects of getting work improve soon. You too are in this position through no fault of your own

I appreciate your comments, I am hopeful of employment, eventually, but anything I get from here on will probably involve a 20 or 30% paycut, I was a dept manager with 6 people reporting to me 12 months ago, when I'm gone there will be two left in teh dept. The chances of finding that type of job again are zero.
If you can be sympsthetic with my situation how would you respond if told to keep your job you will need to take a 10% cut? I suppose my point is this: understanding the situation(from your POV) is one thing but accepting it when it comes knocking on your own door is another thing.
I dont mean to be disingenuous about it, I can appreciate you feel also you have done nothing to deserve any cuts of any kind.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

The image of you falling off a high horse is clearly not the expression of a real wish, let alone a threat.

Who is being thin-skinned and aggressive?

Rob67

Paulzx wrote: »

Sorry Rob67, but i hate to say i told you so. Ah well, you made a valiant effort to try and bring a thread down a different route but the same old thread hoggers have appeared and have no interest in anything anyone else says. Their agenda is the only one.

Best of luck with the rest of the thread Rob67

Thanks Paulzx, it's really sad that a subject can't be discussed in a rational manner without some individuals resorting to histrionics isn't it? Between the potential for someone to fall off a hypothetical horse and the constant search to find a way to feel affronted and thereby cause emotional harm, I am considering asking a mod to close this thread to prevent such a situation arising.

However, if I do that, it will mean that those in the anti-Public Sector cause will have free reign to espouse their sometimes ill-informed rhetoric. I wouldn't be comfortable with that, history has proven that if a certain segment of society are allowed to castigate another segment without fear of contradiction, segregation is sure to follow and then society as a whole will suffer as a result.

Debate, if carried out in a fair and equitable manner, can generate positive results, if allowed by both sides.

This is what I mean when I said we need to grow up and not resort to school-yard tactics.

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

as for how hard you work , i seriously doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but i know for a fact , you earn far more

You really need to learn not to take things personally, Irishbob.

jimmmy

Tony46 wrote: »

I work in the emergency services and I for one will not be made out to be a leech to society. I work extremley hard and I can sincerley say that I deserve every cent of my wages. Irish Bob, If you ever fall off your high horse and injure yourself you will realise the high level of service, dedication and professionalism you recieve at the hands of the emergency services in ireland. However due to the amount of enemies you made here, my good friends The Gardai will have a tough time figuring out who pushed you!!

Not a very nice post. I also " doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but know for a fact , you earn far more "

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Not a very nice post. I also " doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but know for a fact , you earn far more "

Not a very nice post.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not a very nice post.

but true, and without wishing anyone else to fall and injure themselves.;)

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

Thanks Paulzx, it's really sad that a subject can't be discussed in a rational manner without some individuals resorting to histrionics isn't it? Between the potential for someone to fall off a hypothetical horse and the constant search to find a way to feel affronted and thereby cause emotional harm, I am considering asking a mod to close this thread to prevent such a situation arising.

However, if I do that, it will mean that those in the anti-Public Sector cause will have free reign to espouse their sometimes ill-informed rhetoric. I wouldn't be comfortable with that, history has proven that if a certain segment of society are allowed to castigate another segment without fear of contradiction, segregation is sure to follow and then society as a whole will suffer as a result.

Debate, if carried out in a fair and equitable manner, can generate positive results, if allowed by both sides.

This is what I mean when I said we need to grow up and not resort to school-yard tactics.

no rhetotic here , just quoting CSO figures unless you consider those to be rhetoric , do you

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not a very nice post.

ill health can be wished upon me and its to be laughed off but jimmy presents basic fact and hes being cruel :rolleyes:

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

no rhetotic here , just quoting CSO figures unless you consider those to be rhetoric , do you

Aggressive tone, challenging terminology... I may be feeling hurt.

Quote away though!

Once you understand that averages are just that, averages, and are open to inaccuracy/deviation/speculation and misinterpretation.

A thought just came to mind; along with your cohort Jimmmy, and other similarly minded folks, are you interested in genuine debate or do you just want to browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it?

jimmmy

Rob67 wrote: »

Once you understand that averages are just that, averages, and are open to inaccuracy/deviation/speculation and misinterpretation.

Why pay and have a government Central Statistics Office if you cannot even trust them to come up with a statistic on how much the government pays its own employees ? Its not rocket science : it means dividing the public service payroll by the number employed there. It may be a euro or two higher or lower than the 973 euro per week which is the figuure they come up with.....but that does not mean we should ingore the c.s.o. statistic for average public sector pay.

Rob67 wrote: »

A thought just came to mind; along with your cohort Jimmmy, and other similarly minded folks, are you interested in genuine debate or do you just want to browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it?

The only people seen to be " browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it " are the unions......they have browbeated the rest of the country in to making our public service the highest paid in the known world, even though our country cannot currently afford it.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Why pay and have a government Central Statistics Office if you cannot even trust them to come up with a statistic on how much the government pays its own employees ? Its not rocket science : it means dividing the public service payroll by the number employed there. It may be a euro or two higher or lower than the 973 euro per week which is the figuure they come up with.....but that does not mean we should ingore the c.s.o. statistic for average public sector pay.


The only people seen to be " browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it " are the unions......they have browbeated the rest of the country in to making our public service the highest paid in the known world, even though our country cannot currently afford it.

I have bolded two phrases to highlight the reckless imprecision of your post. Public sector pay is not the same as how much the government pays its own employees.

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

ill health can be wished upon me and its to be laughed off but jimmy presents basic fact and hes being cruel :rolleyes:

Quit pretending that you are the victim of a malicious post.

Riskymove

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have bolded two phrases to highlight the reckless imprecision of your post. Public sector pay is not the same as how much the government pays its own employees.

indeed, as we have been discussing on another thread, the €973 figure is not based on the paybill of €20bn or all public servants

for a start it excludes health.....which apparantly accounts for over €8bn of the pay bill

Rob67

jimmmy wrote: »

Why pay and have a government Central Statistics Office if you cannot even trust them to come up with a statistic on how much the government pays its own employees ? Its not rocket science : it means dividing the public service payroll by the number employed there. It may be a euro or two higher or lower than the 973 euro per week which is the figuure they come up with.....but that does not mean we should ingore the c.s.o. statistic for average public sector pay.

A Euro or two? You are trying to be humorous or inflammatory right? You do realise that the majority of Public Servants don't earn close to that? If that were truly the average, then that means that, up until the time I left the Army, the govt had been underpaying me by more than €300 a week! But of course you will refuse to accept that point of view and more than likely ignore it altogether to promote your own cause.

The only people seen to be " browbeat someone into submission and see the world as you see it " are the unions......they have browbeated the rest of the country in to making our public service the highest paid in the known world, even though our country cannot currently afford it.

Browbeaten, the word is browbeaten. If you are going to argue with oft repeated slogans and attempt to use my language to turn it against me, try and use spelling as it was meant to be, it may lead me to not having the appropriate level of respect for your posts and that would not be fair to you.

On to your view; I would agree to a certain point that the unions are getting in the way, however the unions are doing what they are supposed to do, protect their respective memberships.

The unions did not browbeat the rest of the country into making the Public Service (allegedly) into the highest paid organisation, actually the country had nothing to do with pay issues at all. The govt failed in its ability to properly negotiate successive pay deals and install a 'claw back clause' in the event of an economic downturn.

If it can be proven that Public Sector in like for like pay and positions attract higher remuneration in this country than in any other, fine. I never disagreed that reductions in pay should take place. I don't wish to repeat myself over and over again, so I will ask you to read my original post thoroughly and work from there and please refrain from histrionics and aforementioned oft repeated quotes.

irish_bob

Rob67 wrote: »

jimmmy wrote: »

A Euro or two? You are trying to be humorous or inflammatory right? You do realise that the majority of Public Servants don't earn close to that? If that were truly the average, then that means that, up until the time I left the Army, the govt had been underpaying me by more than €300 a week! But of course you will refuse to accept that point of view and more than likely ignore it altogether to promote your own cause.





Browbeaten, the word is browbeaten. If you are going to argue with oft repeated slogans and attempt to use my language to turn it against me, try and use spelling as it was meant to be, it may lead me to not having the appropriate level of respect for your posts and that would not be fair to you.

On to your view; I would agree to a certain point that the unions are getting in the way, however the unions are doing what they are supposed to do, protect their respective memberships.

The unions did not browbeat the rest of the country into making the Public Service (allegedly) into the highest paid organisation, actually the country had nothing to do with pay issues at all. The govt failed in its ability to properly negotiate successive pay deals and install a 'claw back clause' in the event of an economic downturn.

If it can be proven that Public Sector in like for like pay and positions attract higher remuneration in this country than in any other, fine. I never disagreed that reductions in pay should take place. I don't wish to repeat myself over and over again, so I will ask you to read my original post thoroughly and work from there and please refrain from histrionics and aforementioned oft repeated quotes.

so the unions resisted pay increases from benchmarking bertie this past decade , is that it

Rob67

irish_bob wrote: »

Rob67 wrote: »

so the unions resisted pay increases from benchmarking bertie this past decade , is that it

Wow, is that all you have to say? You really are single-minded aren't you? You must really despise the Public Sector to be so determined. Or is it the case that you can't find anything tangible to negate what I'm saying? I'm so disappointed as a result, I really thought you may actually want to debate the topic I raised.

And your grammar has really flown out the window too. I am really, really disappointed, I had such high hopes for you...

Anyhow, in answer:

Would any union resist a pay rise for it's members? Whether they were representing Private or Public Sector member? More precisely, would you?

Similarly to Jimmmy, I would ask you to also read the original post and debate it and try to refrain from dragging the thread down the path that you have caused so many others to travel. Most particularly, read the last sentence and use the advice given there.

Tony46

irish_bob wrote: »

what a thoroughly disgusting post , you not only express your disatisfaction with alternative opinions, in an internet forum of all places , you then go on to make veiled threats against those who offer such alternative viewpoints , thin skinned and agressive , nice personality combo

as for how hard you work , i seriously doubt you work any harder than your counterparts in manchester , amsterdam or berlin but i know for a fact , you earn far more

Disgusting is a word I would use for the abuse I got off anti public service louts while on duty over the weekend. I am not responsible for this mess.

Is expressing your disatisfaction with alternative opinions on an internet forum not what you do on a daily basis?

On a sincere note I would not wish injury on any person, friend or foe, Im sorry I mentioned the stupid high horse but it was only meant as a visualisation and not a veiled threat as you put it. I wouldnt of tought you'd be so sensitive.

Just to put your comparisons into context, Greater Manchester as an example has a popualtion of approx 2.5 million with 41 fire stations. Dublin has approx 1.4 million with 12 stations. We are overstretched as is.

On a personal note,My wife is currently on the dole with no future prospect of employment at the moment and with more pay cuts looming over my head the future aint looking too bright.

To Rob67, apologies for my part in the direction this thread has taken away from your original post.

Rantan

Tony46 wrote: »

Disgusting is a word I would use for the abuse I got off anti public service louts while on duty over the weekend. I am not responsible for this mess.

Is expressing your disatisfaction with alternative opinions on an internet forum not what you do on a daily basis?

On a sincere note I would not wish injury on any person, friend or foe, Im sorry I mentioned the stupid high horse but it was only meant as a visualisation and not a veiled threat as you put it. I wouldnt of tought you'd be so sensitive.

Just to put your comparisons into context, Greater Manchester as an example has a popualtion of approx 2.5 million with 41 fire stations. Dublin has approx 1.4 million with 12 stations. We are overstretched as is.

On a personal note,My wife is currently on the dole with no future prospect of employment at the moment and with more pay cuts looming over my head the future aint looking too bright.

To Rob67, apologies for my part in the direction this thread has taken away from your original post.

A couple of things from your post - I'm not trying to make light of your position, I can only use my own experience to compare, but I am assuming you are a fireman, you're are on pretty good money, your not loaded but you are comfortable, you work hard and deserve your pay(all assumptions). How come your missus is getting dole for one thing? Surely she was means tested and on your salary(assumed) should not be entitiled to it. THats what happened my wife last time she was out of work, dole officer lauged at her(literally) when she told her my salary, believe me I am not wealthy, we could afford to live of it but for the two of us its a survival existence with just my salary. Secondly, when you say the future for you isn;t too bright I ask you to consider my situaltion, I will be on the dole in two weeks, my missus works 3 days a week for a pittance and will probably be out of work in the new year also. I agree you may face some tough times but you will have a relatively good salary and one guaranteed job in the family, I dont think that is really a bad position to be in at the moment to be honest. I now this isn;t a misery competition but its just that I believe public sector guys dont fully realise or apprecaite exactly how good you have it and that is whats causing anger amongst people like me, especially when ye go out marching/striking and making threats about what will happen when ye strike.
( that threat reference is in reference to some interview I heard on radio with some guy from 24/7 or one of thoses bodies, he did make some backhanded allusion, to what would happen if there were no fireman/gardia around etc etc he was basiccally holding the country to ransom, so I'm not making that up - just for the record)!!

jimmmy

Rob67 wrote: »

jimmmy wrote: »

A Euro or two? You are trying to be humorous or inflammatory right? You do realise that the majority of Public Servants don't earn close to that? If that were truly the average, then that means that, up until the time I left the Army, the govt had been underpaying me by more than €300 a week! But of course you will refuse to accept that point of view and more than likely ignore it altogether to promote your own cause.

You think the govt had been underpaying you by more than €300 a week because the government had a moral duty to pay you the average public sector pay ? It does not work like that. It is not a type of perfect communist country where everyone is paid the same ( that did not happen even in communist countries, believe me ). If you were higher qualified, or were lucky enough to have joined the Gardai instead of the army for example, chances are you would be higher paid. There is no law saying the govt has to pay all soldiers the average public sector wage.