Unions on the march..

Sizzler

So the first day of planned marches in selected cities and towns around the country. Will this be a success? Will you be supporting them?Is it ultimately Begg & Co. playing the game? It appears pretty futile to me, sadly the stewardship of Begg etc. is somewhat misleading for the members as they genuinely believe they are unique in the plight of suffering of the economic downturn :rolleyes:

I know a guy in the HSE and he (along with several of his colleagues)they have cancelled their union subs as they know they are doing 'OK' salary wise and wont get a job elsewhere and ultimately simply cant afford to lose pay by taking time off to strike.


There was a text read out on Newstalk this morning which was from a guard who was complaining that he couldnt afford to take any further paycuts as his mortgage was €1,500 a month and there was no overtime available for him to make up for the income levy deficit and he has a wife and child to provide for.

Have to say while I sympathize with this chaps circumstances at the end of the day just because he is a civil servant he is not unique in providing for a family of having a hefty mortgage, the pleads for impunity are really astounding considering where the country is at.

Thoughts?

Tom1974

The start of another Public Sector bashing thread:rolleyes:

Why not go after the real leecheers -> long term unemployed and benefit fraudsters and while we're at it dodgy bankers and property developers.

Sizzler

Tom1974 wrote: »

The start of another Public Sector bashing thread:rolleyes:

Why not go after the real leecheers -> long term unemployed and benefit fraudsters and while we're at it dodgy bankers and property developers.

WTF? I wasnt bashing the public sector? Fundamentally they provide an excellent service.

Absolutely, there needs to be a system to deal with LTE. As for the bankers and property developers I think you would be best served directing your ire towards the minsiter for finance and justice as to why nothing has actually been done yet in that regard :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

a picture says it all really

Simple mathematics: The country is costing €58bn to run this year, but only €32bn is coming in in revenue.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fionnan-sheahan-marching-is-a-right--but-not-up-the-garden-path-1935797.html

Trankton

It seems the public sector employees have a better grasp on the current situation than their union leaders have :

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-service-workers-wont-support-an-allout-strike-1935849.html

I find it surprising that some of the unions have no provisions for strike pay for their members, yet they want them to go out on strike and lose more money, money that these employees can ill afford to lose, while the union officials themselves will still be getting their full pay.

I thought part of the reason you pay into a union is so that when circumstances such as these arise, you are provided with some form of remuneration.

I truly do sympathise with the public sector workers as I do with those who have been laid off or have their wages cut in the private sector. However, the reality remains that something must be done to redress the balance and no other viable solution has been proposed by the unions (or anyone else for that matter), so the government must go ahead with their public sector cuts.

Tom1974

There is the misconception out there that all Public/Civil servants are on high wages with cushy jobs and golden pensions.

Sure if you never worked a day in your life you are entitled to the state pension!

I fully support the march today. Anything that opposes this current government is good in my eyes. :mad:

potlatch

While the country is currently in a budget crisis, but cuts are not a long-term solution. Higher taxes will lower consumption, which will lower economic growth. Cuts in public expenditure will increase unemployment and exacerbate social crisis.

Ireland's income and wealth distribution inequality increased in the Celtic Tiger.

Progressive taxation, where the 1% richest commanding €70 billion of the country's wealth, the generally better off pay more taxes and tax reliefs/loopholes are ended, will actually increase revenue, productive public investment, private sector investment support, and ultimately consumption and incomes.

Parallel to this should be massive reform in the public sector based not on cuts but on rational reorganisation and providing better value-for-money.

This is what the union demands amount to. And I support the view.

victor11

Can somebody please tell me very simply..... Why? What's the point in marching..... TO voice anger/frustration? To get the Govt to listen??
Everbody knows that Everybody's angry and Everybody wants to say something but Everybody doesnt want to be touched!!!
AGHHHHHHH....

Victor_M

potlatch wrote: »

Parallel to this should be massive reform in the public sector based not on cuts but on rational reorganisation and providing better value-for-money.

If you can suggest how this can be done without cuts please do so, Jack O'Connor is open to any suggestions.

This country needs to be run like a business, the PS expanded disproportionally to meet the demand of the 00's, it now needs to shrink to meet the current demand, redeploying unnecessary staff and having 3 people do 1 persons job, for fear of creating more unemployment is crazy, unless everyone agrees to pay cuts that generates savings equal the equivalent of laying off about 1/3 of the PS.

This is a great opportunity to restructure the PS properly as you mentioned, trim the fat and offer a bit of value for money.

jimmmy

Tom1974 wrote: »

Sure if you never worked a day in your life you are entitled to the state pension!

We are not talking about the unemployed and their state pensions. Todays marches are called / organised by the unions on behalf of their members. If you want to talk about pensions, do not forget the average public sector pension in this country is 50% of finishing salary and 18 months lump sum tax free. Given the choice between say, for example, the average American industrial wage or 41,000 dollars ( 27.5 k euro ) for working or a public sector pension for doing nothing, I know which I would prefer;). All our state pensions are unsustainable.

ei.sdraob

Tom1974 wrote: »

There is the misconception out there that all Public/Civil servants are on high wages with cushy jobs and golden pensions.

Sure if you never worked a day in your life you are entitled to the state pension!

I fully support the march today. Anything that opposes this current government is good in my eyes. :mad:

listen ill make it very simple

the money is not there, the construction 1trick pony had died and rotted away

whatever government is in-place will have to face up to reality

as for the unions, them puppets of a leaders who made a cock of themselves on primetime few days ago earn more than everybody who replied in this thread so far put together, the union boss dip**** earns 4-5 times more than me and he cant answer a question straight

Tom1974

ei.sdraob wrote: »

listen ill make it very simple

the money is not there, the construction 1trick pony had died and rotted away

whatever government is in-place will have to face up to reality

Answer me this then, AIB had the money to pay their staff a raise recently, yet had to be bailed out by the government

The point is if the Public Service accept these cuts easily this year, then the government will come back for more next year, and the next.

Pay peanuts get monkeys.....

jimmmy

Tom1974 wrote: »

Answer me this then, AIB had the money to pay their staff a raise recently, yet had to be bailed out by the government

The "bail out" of 3 or 4 billion they have got is a loan, for which they are paying good interest to the bank. The Nama money is meant to be a loan , not a gift.
Incidentally, I do not condone the payrise the AIB gave themselves.

Tom1974 wrote: »

Pay peanuts get monkeys.....

Why do we pay ( with the help of 500 million of govt borrowing per week ) our monkeys the highest average public sector pay in the known world ?

FlutterinBantam

heh heh listening to the auld war horses on Pat Kenny,My God nothing changes.

Nurses on their uppers
Firemen on their uppers
Guards
Teachers
Community schemes.

All the usual motormouths trotted out to defend their vested interests.

One despairs sometime....................

jimmmy

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

heh heh listening to the auld war horses on Pat Kenny,My God nothing changes.

Nurses on their uppers
Firemen on their uppers
Guards
Teachers
Community schemes.

All the usual motormouths trotted out to defend their vested interests.

One despairs sometime....................

+1. Why does Pat or anyone not have the guts to tell them they have the highest average public sector pay in the known world ? ( Eddie Hobbs on RTE they have the highest average pay on the "planet" but most of what we hear on RTE is stuff from the unions / union members ).

Tom1974

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

heh heh listening to the auld war horses on Pat Kenny,My God nothing changes.

Nurses on their uppers
Firemen on their uppers
Guards
Teachers
Community schemes.

All the usual motormouths trotted out to defend their vested interests.

One despairs sometime....................

Why not just sack all the public servants?? Sure we can't afford them..

We'll put out our own fires, tend to our own injuries/sickness, form vigilanty groups to deal with crime and teach our own kids.

Sure it would be nirvana:rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam

He had a few who tried, but were shouted down, indeed one motormouth accused a lad who was making a perfectly reasonable point of "demonising" public service workers.

Guy sounded like he was frothing at the mouth.

hard times indeed.

ei.sdraob

Tom1974 wrote: »

Answer me this then, AIB had the money to pay their staff a raise recently, yet had to be bailed out by the government

The point is if the Public Service accept these cuts easily this year, then the government will come back for more next year, and the next.

Pay peanuts get monkeys.....

the government shoud not have given a cent to the banks

i disagree against any form of bailout, messing with the markets is what got us here, more of the same wont help

since the goverment is part fo the public sector yee created this mess, yee pay for it

FlutterinBantam

Tom1974 wrote: »

Why not just sack all the public servants?? Sure we can't afford them..

We'll put out our own fires, tend to our own injuries/sickness, form vigilanty groups to deal with crime and teach our own kids.

Sure it would be nirvana:rolleyes:

No Tom I wouldn't think that's a good idea,but if can't afford to pay for the heating in my house I don't throw out the heating system, I use what I can afford Tom.

it's called common sense;)

ei.sdraob

Tom1974 wrote: »

Why not just sack all the public servants?? Sure we can't afford them..

We'll put out our own fires, tend to our own injuries/sickness, form vigilanty groups to deal with crime and teach our own kids.

Sure it would be nirvana:rolleyes:

import replacements from Philippines or open hiring from the pool of unemployed we have

problem solved

i could sympathize with strikers if they are abused or low paid, but in this case the PS are just taking a piss at every taxpayers expense

seriously they should put their heads down, the PS still have relatively well jobs, thats something to be thankful about in this day and age

Victor_M

Tom1974 wrote: »

Why not just sack all the public servants?? Sure we can't afford them..

We'll put out our own fires, tend to our own injuries/sickness, form vigilanty groups to deal with crime and teach our own kids.

Sure it would be nirvana:rolleyes:

Nah, that would be a huge over reaction, here's a suggestion instead, why don't we pay them the average European wage for a PS frontline service worker.

It's crazy enough to work!

Once you have the sympathy vote front liners out of the way, what about the rest of the overpaid under utilised resources in the PS, say the teachers for example, primary school teachers work approx 4.5 hours a day and get 5 months holidays a year, yet insist on having their meetings during school time, the whole PS have acquired an artificial level on entitlement over the last 15 years in particular. The safety net of not being able to be fired needs to be cut away, well see how militant they are then!

Tom1974

See what gets me is that:

Yes we all need to contribute (public, private and the elite). It would be great if the anger that is felt towards public servants could be reserved and used against the corrupt bankers and politicians as well.


How is our little private sector banker pal Seani Fitz doin? Has he repaid any of his outstanding debt to our Anglo yet? Funny enough it was only in the media for a day or so! Compare that to the amount of bad propoganda against the Public Servants for the last few months....

Darragh29

Tom1974 wrote: »

See what gets me is that:

Yes we all need to contribute (public, private and the elite). It would be great if the anger that is felt towards public servants could be reserved and used against the corrupt bankers and politicians as well.


How is our little private sector banker pal Seani Fitz doin? Has he repaid any of his outstanding debt to our Anglo yet? Funny enough it was only in the media for a day or so! Compare that to the amount of bad propoganda against the Public Servants for the last few months....

I don't think PS workers have a problem with paycuts in themselves, my gut feeling is that they know they are being overpaid... They don't seem to have a problem with the medicine here, it's just that they don't like the doctor who is standing beside them with the needle...

Villain

Tom1974 wrote: »

How is our little private sector banker pal Seani Fitz doin? Has he repaid any of his outstanding debt to our Anglo yet? Funny enough it was only in the media for a day or so! Compare that to the amount of bad propoganda against the Public Servants for the last few months....

Yes but how many Sean Fitz are there compared to how many Public Sector Workers earning over 60k?

Its simple imo let the IMF come in and it will go as follows:

IMF: "Public Sector worker you are earning 60k, you will have to take a pay cut back to 50k"

Public Worker:"LOL Yea right try that and I'll strike"

IMF: "Ok heres you minimum redundancy, now which one of the 400-500k people on the Dole want that job for 45k?"

jimmmy

Sean Fitzpatckrick is just one individual out of a workforce of a couple of million. If he has commited a crime he should be charged + sentenced in court.

Victor_M

Tom1974 wrote: »

See what gets me is that:

Yes we all need to contribute (public, private and the elite). It would be great if the anger that is felt towards public servants could be reserved and used against the corrupt bankers and politicians as well.


How is our little private sector banker pal Seani Fitz doin? Has he repaid any of his outstanding debt to our Anglo yet? Funny enough it was only in the media for a day or so! Compare that to the amount of bad propoganda against the Public Servants for the last few months....

Seani Fitz, is a gangster who got lost his job once he was caught, his debt is not getting any bigger and it is HIS debt. The PS on the other hand, they have essentially been caught out for being over paid and inefficient (financial regulator was a PS if I'm not mistaken) as have lots of private workers and companies, the big difference is that the private sector workers that haven't lost their jobs have all taken huge pay cuts, 20-30 %.

The Public sector workers need to be able to be fired, that will force them to have to make an effort to retain their jobs, just like the rest of us.

kippy

Victor_M wrote: »

Seani Fitz, is a gangster who got lost his job once he was caught, his debt is not getting any bigger and it is HIS debt. The PS on the other hand, they have essentially been caught out for being over paid and inefficient (financial regulator was a PS if I'm not mistaken) as have lots of private workers and companies, the big difference is that the private sector workers that haven't lost their jobs have all taken huge pay cuts, 20-30 %.

The Public sector workers need to be able to be fired, that will force them to have to make an effort to retain their jobs, just like the rest of us.

Theres plenty misinformation out there without you adding to it.
I aint for or against any particilar group but it is a LIE to state that those private sector workers still in jobs have taken 20-30 % pay cuts. I know plenty private sector workers who thankfully havent lost their jobs, nor taken any cuts in pay,and I dont want them to either.

I wont be on any days of action. I am willing to take a 5-10 % cut this year and more again next year so long as the cost of living comes down and it improves the fortunes of the country.

Darragh29

Just listening to Newstalk 106, they have a reporter down in Parnell Square, "not a sinner" down there at the moment....

Scofflaw

Hootanany, no possibly libellous assertions, thanks.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Sizzler

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just listening to Newstalk 106, they have a reporter down in Parnell Square, "not a sinner" down there at the moment....

Just passed Parnell Square and walked down O'Connell Street. Literally a handful of people gathered and there was 2 women with a table set up at the road edge outside the AIB on the corner. One girl at the table and one hassling people as they went buy to take a leaflet and or sign their petition.

Heres what happened next -

Union canvasser - "Support the union march today"
Sizzler - "No thanks, I don't support todays action"
Union canvasser - "Would you not even take a leaflet or come over and sign de petition?"
Sizzler - "Eh no, why exactly are you marching today? Do you know?"
Union canvasser - "Cos we want our rights protected, they are trying to take more money off us, its not bleedin fair"
Sizzler - "But sure isnt the country skint? Thousands of people have taken paycuts,its not just public sector"
Union canvasser - "I dont bleedin care about them, I'm marching today to keep me own wages, I deserve my payrise, dont care where they get the money from. So will ye sign this or wha?
Sizzler - Walks away even more frustrated :mad:

If this is the sort of foot soldier that Begg has groomed then I really do despair for the country.

The irony of today is the unions are encouraging private sector workers to join in, a move of solidarity but yet the unions are only interested in keeping their own interests ringfenced and f**k the consequences for everybody else, solidarity indeed :rolleyes:

kippy

Sizzler wrote: »

Just passed Parnell Square and walked down O'Connell Street. Literally a handful of people gathered and there was 2 women with a table set up at the road edge outside the AIB on the corner. One girl at the table and one hassling people as they went buy to take a leaflet and or sign their petition.

Heres what happened next -

Union canvasser - "Support the union march today"
Sizzler - "No thanks, I don't support todays action"
Union canvasser - "Would you not even take a leaflet or come over and sign de petition?"
Sizzler - "Eh no, why exactly are you marching today? Do you know?"
Union canvasser - "Cos we want our rights protected, they are trying to take more money off us, its not bleedin fair"
Sizzler - "But sure isnt the country skint? Thousands of people have taken paycuts,its not just public sector"
Union canvasser - "I dont bleedin care about them, I'm marching today to keep me own wages, I deserve my payrise, dont care where they get the money from. So will ye sign this or wha?
Sizzler - Walks away even more frustrated :mad:

If this is the sort of foot soldier that Begg has groomed then I really do despair for the country.

The irony of today is the unions are encouraging private sector workers to join in, a move of solidarity but yet the unions are only interested in keeping their own interests ringfenced and f**k the consequences for everybody else, solidarity indeed :rolleyes:

Thats a disgrace but completely indicitive of hard core Union people in my experience.