Unions on the march..

Psychedelic

The employees, who work 24/7 shifts, are objecting to Government plans to cut public sector pay.

We keep hearing this crap about working 24/7 - they don't work 24/7, they do 8-12 hours shifts like everyone else. Just coz their place of work doesn't close at 5pm doesn't mean they have to work 24/7. They get their time off like everyone else.

You don't see people in other jobs working through the night (taxi drivers, pub staff, night time security, factories that stay open through the night, airports, late night convenience stores etc) saying they work 24/7.

Sizzler

irish_bob wrote: »

the vast majority of guards and nurses wouldnt have a hope of earning higher pay in the private sector and i include during the boom

EXACTLY, yet they continue to bang the hardship drum for jobs they elected to take :eek:

Can you imagine a private sector employee going into their boss saying they can shove their paycut or any change in salary conditions because they have onerous outgoings every month and due to the work they do its proposterous to even contemplate them taking a hit because of their personal circunmstances If you were lucky they might wish you well as they would assume you were going to leave ! I dont have a grudge against the civil service but Im sorry that is the reality.

The fact is if public sector workers dont like their conditions its a free labour market and theres nothing stopping them from having a crack at another career.I dont hear anybody looking to leave?WHY? If its about the money you make a change but dont expect the govt to cave in. THE COUNTRY IS SKINT FFS.

dresden8

Sizzler wrote: »

EXACTLY,

WHY?

THE COUNTRY IS SKINT FFS.

Pardon? Speak up!

The Volt

Sizzler wrote: »

EXACTLY, yet they continue to bang the hardship drum for jobs they elected to take :eek:

Can you imagine a private sector employee going into their boss saying they can shove their paycut or any change in salary conditions because they have onerous outgoings every month and due to the work they do its proposterous to even contemplate them taking a hit because of their personal circunmstances If you were lucky they might wish you well as they would assume you were going to leave ! I dont have a grudge against the civil service but Im sorry that is the reality.

The fact is if public sector workers dont like their conditions its a free labour market and theres nothing stopping them from having a crack at another career.I dont hear anybody looking to leave?WHY? If its about the money you make a change but dont expect the govt to cave in. THE COUNTRY IS SKINT FFS.

Not EVERYBODY in the country is skint. Infact, believe it or not, they are enough wealthy people not paying nearly as much as they could.

Sizzler

Voltwad wrote: »

Not EVERYBODY in the country is skint. Infact, believe it or not, they are enough wealthy people not paying nearly as much as they could.

By 'the country' I meant the public finances.

I agree but the public sector does need reform and given its up there with SW as the biggest spend then its naturally up for discussion.

Hasnt Cowen and Lenihan already said there is little or no room for more taxation so unfortunately the people you refer to dont look like they will be ponying up any more cash.

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

Not EVERYBODY in the country is skint. Infact, believe it or not, they are enough wealthy people not paying nearly as much as they could.

So we should all be taxed till we are skint?

Some people need to get real, if a person is wealthy that usually doesn't magically happen. I don't mind wealthy people paying a higher rate of tax but to suggest we should tax them into the ground or anything of the sort is just crazy talk.

Current tax levels are appropriate IMO and we should bring more people into the tax net before we look at asking people already paying to pay more.

The Volt

thebman wrote: »

So we should all be taxed till we are skint?

Some people need to get real, if a person is wealthy that usually doesn't magically happen. I don't mind wealthy people paying a higher rate of tax but to suggest we should tax them into the ground or anything of the sort is just crazy talk.

Current tax levels are appropriate IMO and we should bring more people into the tax net before we look at asking people already paying to pay more.

I never said tax them to the ground. Those who can afford to pay more should do so. There's nothing wrong with that.

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

I never said tax them to the ground. Those who can afford to pay more should do so. There's nothing wrong with that.

And what determines if they can pay more?

Some of the so called wealthy in Ireland have built empires on debt and they are in for just as much a shake up as the PS worker that is struggling to pay their mortgage.

I'd love to see facts as to who these people who can afford and should pay more are? I don't believe they exist in the numbers required to avoid pay cuts in the PS.

The Volt

thebman wrote: »

And what determines if they can pay more?

Some of the so called wealthy in Ireland have built empires on debt and they are in for just as much a shake up as the PS worker that is struggling to pay their mortgage.

I'd love to see facts as to who these people who can afford and should pay more are? I don't believe they exist in the numbers required to avoid pay cuts in the PS.

And I suppose PS workers on the lower end of the ladder have no accumulated debts like mortgages or anything like that?

One's salary should determine if they pay more.

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

And I suppose PS workers on the lower end of the ladder have no accumulated debts like mortgages or anything like that?

One's salary should determine if they pay more.

lol you still have to set the rate. if you tax the rich they will leave if they can and you don't have to go far north to escape either.

If the government could tax their way out of this they would because they want to get re-elected. Even if they did as you suggested they'd still have to cut pay and bring more people in to the tax net and cut social welfare and health.

And you know what, we'll still be in the red

irish_bob

Voltwad wrote: »

I never said tax them to the ground. Those who can afford to pay more should do so. There's nothing wrong with that.

when you say those who can afford to pay more should , does this mean someone on 40 k per year who has a shopping addiction and who cant save a bean should not have to pay tax but someone who earns 40 k per year but is as thrifty as a scottsman should have to cough up to the revenue , im just trying to get some specifics here

irish_bob

thebman wrote: »

lol you still have to set the rate. if you tax the rich they will leave if they can and you don't have to go far north to escape either.

If the government could tax their way out of this they would because they want to get re-elected. Even if they did as you suggested they'd still have to cut pay and bring more people in to the tax net and cut social welfare and health.

And you know what, we'll still be in the red

its not just a case of the super rich leaving , small business which brings in around half a million a year will be effected also , if tax rates go to 60% , they will have to set aside more money for the revenue which could instead have been used to grow thier business which might mean hiring extra people who are now on the dole

Dozen Wicked Words

irish_bob wrote: »

the vast majority of guards and nurses wouldnt have a hope of earning higher pay in the private sector and i include during the boom

Who exactly in the Private Sector would you compare a law enforcement officer to?

Nurses may not have had a hope of earning higher pay, but definitely the SAME, because you see, nurses are paid more or less the same in the private sector.

And just for you irishbob, I know you love the educational development of nurses so here is some good news from across the water in the underpaid NHS.

Look forward to its roll out in Ireland? :P

jimmmy

dooferoaks wrote: »

Who exactly in the Private Sector would you compare a law enforcement officer to?

You mean a Guard / a member of the Gardai ?
I would compare them to a millionaire : not because their average salary is 60k a year, but because they can retire after only 30 years service with a pension pot worth 1.3 million. If they are not already millionaires, I would prefer to be in their shoes than many people who thought they were millionaires a few years ago

Paulzx

jimmmy wrote: »

You mean a Guard / a member of the Gardai ?
I would compare them to a millionaire : not because their average salary is 60k a year, but because they can retire after only 30 years service with a pension pot worth 1.3 million. If they are not already millionaires, I would prefer to be in their shoes than many people who thought they were millionaires a few years ago

You have posted some rubbish before in this forum but this one takes the biscuit. A Garda 2 years in the job is a millionaire because of a pension he might receive in 30 years time. Jaysus you talk some sh*te.

Maybe he should buy a mansion in the Bahamas and tell the seller he'll pay him in thirty years time when he retires on his millionare pension.

Fair play. You've given me a good laugh!! Your posts get more hysterical and demented as time goes on:D

jimmmy

Paulzx wrote: »

Fair play. You've given me a good laugh!!

Thats good because with that post I was being a bit tongue in cheek !
Maybe I know too many retired guards, with their investment properties, overseas holiday home, one has a yacht etc.
The average Garda salary + pension pot figures quoted are accurate though. Plus the fact they can retire after 30 years service. I know a few who are retired, fit + healthy + have a life expectancy of another 30 years or so , all on a nice pension

FlutterinBantam

Spot on Jiiimmy , and don't forget index linked to what the current grade gets.

Some people don't seem to want to understand reality.

irish_bob

dooferoaks wrote: »

Who exactly in the Private Sector would you compare a law enforcement officer to?

Nurses may not have had a hope of earning higher pay, but definitely the SAME, because you see, nurses are paid more or less the same in the private sector.

And just for you irishbob, I know you love the educational development of nurses so here is some good news from across the water in the underpaid NHS.

Look forward to its roll out in Ireland? :P

what is the point of asking what the equivelent of a nurse is in the private sector , doesnt matter if the answer is a lion tamer in the circus or an air hostess , i see it as an attempt to suggest that no ones job in the private sector could possibly be as important as that of a nurse

the unions regulary claim that nurses and guards didnt make huge riches during the boom , my question is what riches they could have made or where they could have made them had they not chosen to serve mother ireland instead , unlike RTE, i would like to get past the rhetoric

rebel10

Stark wrote: »

Lads, lads. Nurses, teachers and gardaí should all be paid in the form of blank cheques. They are "frontline" after all.

Ah when did teachers become frontline? God i wish people would get their facts straight. I'm a teacher and we were told that the strike on Friday was only an option for us if we paid people to cover the classes we would be missing or asked staff to voulnteer. To hear such bull from people who don't seem to have a clue and recieve their "concrete" facts from the media and threads like this really annoys me. Most of them are spouting out information which is completely inaccurate. I find this so frustrating because my boyfriend lost his job, also a teacher, in June. No sign of anything coming up for the next few years. I am earning 400 eur a wk. What people don't realise or couldn't give a crap about is the fact that not only private sector workers are being hit. I'm not on a permanent contract so my job could be gone in June.
What is so frustrating is that have friends who are working in the construction industry earning much more than me, and for much longer telling me my pay needs to be cut once again. Why are they earning more than me, and telling me i should be taking a cut lying down.
A teacher was working with me last year, she shocked me one day tellin me how anti-union she was. Then discovered how she had worked in finance before joining the public sector the year before. She was the only one of us 10 non-perm staff who drove a 4x4 and had an apartment which she was renting out while herself and her builder boyfriend were building a new home. something which at 28, i can never see happening to me. That is what is so frustrating. I am happy to take a pay cut as long as i know that everyone in the private sector earning much more are also contributing to solve this mess.

The Volt

thebman wrote: »

lol you still have to set the rate. if you tax the rich they will leave if they can and you don't have to go far north to escape either.

If the government could tax their way out of this they would because they want to get re-elected. Even if they did as you suggested they'd still have to cut pay and bring more people in to the tax net and cut social welfare and health.

And you know what, we'll still be in the red

It's about balance. Not saying that we take all the money off them but we have the lowest personal tax rates in the EU and surely at a time of crisis, the people who have the most should pay the most?

I also find it ironic that the 4 billion that the govt need to make it up is the exact same figure that they put into a bank which will be of no benefit to the people of this country!

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

It's about balance. Not saying that we take all the money off them but we have the lowest personal tax rates in the EU and surely at a time of crisis, the people who have the most should pay the most?

I also find it ironic that the 4 billion that the govt need to make it up is the exact same figure that they put into a bank which will be of no benefit to the people of this country!

We also have huge luxury taxes and I'm fully in favor of reducing these to encourage people to spend money in Ireland doing it on a tax neutral basis meaning more tax on peoples wages to compensate as it will bring in more money overall.

we have crap loads of stealth taxes in this country and along with the vat rate it is sending people up north before we even consider how competitive we are with regard to wages etc...

rebel10 wrote: »

Ah when did teachers become frontline? God i wish people would get their facts straight. I'm a teacher and we were told that the strike on Friday was only an option for us if we paid people to cover the classes we would be missing or asked staff to voulnteer. To hear such bull from people who don't seem to have a clue and recieve their "concrete" facts from the media and threads like this really annoys me. Most of them are spouting out information which is completely inaccurate. I find this so frustrating because my boyfriend lost his job, also a teacher, in June. No sign of anything coming up for the next few years. I am earning 400 eur a wk. What people don't realise or couldn't give a crap about is the fact that not only private sector workers are being hit. I'm not on a permanent contract so my job could be gone in June.
What is so frustrating is that have friends who are working in the construction industry earning much more than me, and for much longer telling me my pay needs to be cut once again. Why are they earning more than me, and telling me i should be taking a cut lying down.
A teacher was working with me last year, she shocked me one day tellin me how anti-union she was. Then discovered how she had worked in finance before joining the public sector the year before. She was the only one of us 10 non-perm staff who drove a 4x4 and had an apartment which she was renting out while herself and her builder boyfriend were building a new home. something which at 28, i can never see happening to me. That is what is so frustrating. I am happy to take a pay cut as long as i know that everyone in the private sector earning much more are also contributing to solve this mess.

Spare us the live story, of course staff are being let go in the public sector if they can get away with doing it without redundancy payments etc... They are almost 30 billion in the red FFS. Nobody likes whats happening but it doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

rebel10

thebman wrote: »

Spare us the live story, of course staff are being let go in the public sector if they can get away with doing it without redundancy payments etc... They are almost 30 billion in the red FFS. Nobody likes whats happening but it doesn't change the fact that it is happening.

God isin't great that everyone in the private sector can come on here and complain bout their own circumstances- cuts, redundancies, the list goes on, but most importantly attack anyone in the public sector they feel like having a go at? So if anyone from the public sector comes on here explaining that not everyone is receiving the money that these judges, nurses and guards on overtime, HSE, etc. etc. are they are told to shut up? God ya, I would love to hand over all my earnings to ya, though i don't suppose you will be happy with that either? My "live" story consisted of a few lines, what a pathetic life story. We know how bad it is, we are losing jobs too.

thebman

rebel10 wrote: »

God isin't great that everyone in the private sector can come on here and complain bout their own circumstances- cuts, redundancies, the list goes on, but most importantly attack anyone in the public sector they feel like having a go at? So if anyone from the public sector comes on here explaining that not everyone is receiving the money that these judges, nurses and guards on overtime, HSE, etc. etc. are they are told to shut up? God ya, I would love to hand over all my earnings to ya, though i don't suppose you will be happy with that either? My "live" story consisted of a few lines, what a pathetic life story. We know how bad it is, we are losing jobs too.

No peoples individual circumstances has no basis in a discussion about pay levels. It wouldn't be tolerated/taken into account in a discussion with your manager so why should it factor in here?

In other threads maybe it is appropriate but in many cases people just shouldn't give out personal information anyway as it might make them identifiable.

It would be the same if private sector people went on about how they are taking a pay cut and can't afford their mortgage. I feel sympathy for anyone in such circumstances but it isn't productive in a discussion as you can't decide all the rules around persons personal circumstances.

And if you really want to talk about your personal situation on a regular basis, use a blog. I don't want to know about your personal financial situation and I won't talk to you about my personal circumstances either, deal?

rebel10

Glad you are instructing me on how to use this, wouldn't have a clue without you.
Point i am trying to make is not only that we are receiving job cuts in the sector but that we aren't earning the kind of money that is suggested on this thread. Sorry if i mentioned i had a boyfriend and friends in the private sector, probably bored you, but i am not going to be told that i cannot mention how much i am paid, for God's sake i am not the only one earning as little in the sector. This is an open forum, i can put forward any information i wish, if you are not interested then by all means ignore my posts.
My only wish is that they would broaden the tax net. This is the only fair way for someone in my position.

thebman

rebel10 wrote: »

Glad you are instructing me on how to use this, wouldn't have a clue without you.

:rolleyes: I didn't think I'd have to explain how to use it to anyone here either and yet here we are.

Point i am trying to make is not only that we are receiving job cuts in the sector but that we aren't earning the kind of money that is suggested on this thread. Sorry if i mentioned i had a boyfriend and friends in the private sector, probably bored you, but i am not going to be told that i cannot mention how much i am paid, for God's sake i am not the only one earning as little in the sector.

Ok but you'd be better off talking about what people in your job role earn and describing the job role rather than just talking about your own circumstance. I still don't know what you do and know more about your boyfriend than your job role.

Anyway its irrelevant as I don't think anybody here will be making the decision on what gets cut. I'd love to give you a free pass on the cuts but unfortunately your more likely to get one than anyone at the top of a quango due to the people making the decisions.

dresden8

thebman wrote: »

No peoples individual circumstances has no basis in a discussion about pay levels.

I do hope you discuss this with jimmmy when he starts going on about the millionaire gardai he knows and their extensive property portfolios that they told him about.

thebman

dresden8 wrote: »

I do hope you discuss this with jimmmy when he starts going on about the millionaire gardai he knows and their extensive property portfolios that they told him about.

lol I hope you don't believe his little stories :P

I don't and don't really care if they are real or not. I just read them for a laugh as they seem so unlikely to be true :P

The Volt

thebman wrote: »

We also have huge luxury taxes and I'm fully in favor of reducing these to encourage people to spend money in Ireland doing it on a tax neutral basis meaning more tax on peoples wages to compensate as it will bring in more money overall.

we have crap loads of stealth taxes in this country and along with the vat rate it is sending people up north before we even consider how competitive we are with regard to wages etc...

Well if people want to control wages, there'd have to be control on prices. It can't only be a one way street. I fear that even if you harmonized our VAT with the UK it would still be Rip Off Ireland.

Dozen Wicked Words

irish_bob wrote: »

what is the point of asking what the equivelent of a nurse is in the private sector , doesnt matter if the answer is a lion tamer in the circus or an air hostess , i see it as an attempt to suggest that no ones job in the private sector could possibly be as important as that of a nurse

the unions regulary claim that nurses and guards didnt make huge riches during the boom , my question is what riches they could have made or where they could have made them had they not chosen to serve mother ireland instead , unlike RTE, i would like to get past the rhetoric

So its not to do with the Public Service Nurses, its to do with ALL Irish Nurses?

thebman

Voltwad wrote: »

Well if people want to control wages, there'd have to be control on prices. It can't only be a one way street. I fear that even if you harmonized our VAT with the UK it would still be Rip Off Ireland.

I don't think it would be at this stage.

I think prices would be higher in many cases but not because the retailer is being greedy or whatever.

The cost of everything and distributing to Ireland is more expensive than it is to the UK. We should equalise it as much as possible in the interest of sharing the island with the north, possible future integration if your pushing for that kind of thing and to stop giving the retailers down here an excuse for having higher prices.