Unions on the march..

rebel10

I'm a teacher, had said that. Reason i told you how much i earned was because I think people who obviously have no real knowledge of the sector, are led into believing that we are all earning well over a grand a wk with permanent contracts which isin't the case. I believe this forum is open to anyone to voice their opinions, and i felt, after reading so many misguided attitudes towards the public sector, i had to defend not only my pay but peoples attitudes towards us. I think you have to realise this is an open forum which means that whatever information someone chooses to disclose, they do so knowingly.
I know you aren't trying to be patronising, well hope not, but you do have to realise that many people have not only mentioned earnings but their workplaces and companies they work for, Dell, SIPTU to name some given. This, i believe, is far more identifiable than telling you i am a teacher. Though i won't be admitting to that for long more the way we are being treated on this and many other threads. Thanks though.:rolleyes:

thebman

rebel10 wrote: »

I'm a teacher, had said that. Reason i told you how much i earned was because I think people who obviously have no real knowledge of the sector, are led into believing that we are all earning well over a grand a wk with permanent contracts which isin't the case. I believe this forum is open to anyone to voice their opinions, and i felt, after reading so many misguided attitudes towards the public sector, i had to defend not only my pay but peoples attitudes towards us. I think you have to realise this is an open forum which means that whatever information someone chooses to disclose, they do so knowingly.
I know you aren't trying to be patronising, well hope not, but you do have to realise that many people have not only mentioned earnings but their workplaces and companies they work for, Dell, SIPTU to name some given. This, i believe, is far more identifiable than telling you i am a teacher. Though i won't be admitting to that for long more the way we are being treated on this and many other threads. Thanks though.:rolleyes:

Well you can say your not a well paid teacher but there are plenty of well paid teachers around too usually have years of experience and probably on older contracts but they exist.

I don't think anybody here wants lower paid staff to take the hit but the sad reality is they usually do because they are seen as easier to hit because they usually are younger and have less financial commitments and usually the very young just entering the work force have parents to fall back on.

Then in the public sector you also have to look at it from a politicians perspective. Who is more likely to vote in a general election, statistics say young people don't vote so another reason to hit them.

Just look at the people being laid off in the private sector, vast majority are under 30 and most are probably under 25. Its just how crap the world is unfortunately

Oh and just to expand the strikes won't change anything as politicians don't care about strikes. It saves them paying the staff and it turns the public more against the people striking.

rebel10

Agree completely. Frustrates me when i see people ready to hit the streets with their banners, (and i'm in the public sector), and they have about a year left to retirement. I know their reasoning behind it is that they fought so long and hard to be paid for things that they were fully entitled to. Though i know some will see otherwise, but generally these don't have basic knowledge of the job. There are thousands of us in this situation, not having these golden contracts and most "new" teachers are on the same wage as me, this is why i am marching, out of pure frustration. Just hope people realise this and not because we feel untouchable.

Stark

I have plenty of friends who are on temporary teaching contracts (for years and years) and know how hard it is for them. But that's trying to break into unionised employment for you. Permanent teachers are just too expensive and hard to get rid of when they take the piss.

Sizzler

rebel10 wrote: »

Agree completely. Frustrates me when i see people ready to hit the streets with their banners, (and i'm in the public sector), and they have about a year left to retirement. I know their reasoning behind it is that they fought so long and hard to be paid for things that they were fully entitled to. Though i know some will see otherwise, but generally these don't have basic knowledge of the job. There are thousands of us in this situation, not having these golden contracts and most "new" teachers are on the same wage as me, this is why i am marching, out of pure frustration. Just hope people realise this and not because we feel untouchable.

I genuinely sympathize with your plight, as you say you are basically doing the same job and are a lot worse off than your elders although Im sure the near retirement people would argue they have years of experience but I agree there should not be such a disconnect between conditions.

You mentioned in an earlier post how some of your peers were doing so much better than you and you are effectively not in a contracted 'safe' position. If this is the case (you obviously feel very hard done by) why dont you seriously consider a new career? The state arent forcing you to stay are they? Im not being smart btw, honest question? I know someone who trained to be a teacher after doing a degree in UCD, did 2 years in similar circumstances and thought it was pants and went and retrained and now works in the private sector. He never once complained or took to the streets though to say he was getting stiffed on wages or conditions, he just got on with it.

jimmmy

thebman wrote: »

I don't think it would be at this stage.

I think prices would be higher in many cases but not because the retailer is being greedy or whatever.

The cost of everything and distributing to Ireland is more expensive than it is to the UK. We should equalise it as much as possible in the interest of sharing the island with the north, possible future integration if your pushing for that kind of thing and to stop giving the retailers down here an excuse for having higher prices.

" possible future integration if your pushing for that kind of thing" ??? Then the north would have the same prices as the republioc. If you want most of the 26 counties to have the same prices as the north, you should be looking for the border to move southward, not northwards ;)lol.
As Gay Byrne once said, we wanted ouir independence, we are paying for it.

Rantan

Rebel10 - I said the following on a similar thread last week, sorry for repeating myself but I think its relevant to current discussion:

I know a teacher who is struggling with reduced hours but is managing to survive. He spent 10yrs in IT before going back to college to become a teacher. He knows a lot about computers and networks. He offered to maintain the computers in his school for free becasuse he could do it in his sleep and enjoys it. He was rejected because some middle aged teacher was in line for the next additional duty that was avavilable. So she gets the extra money on top of her generous salary for someting she has absolutley no clue how to do while my mate struggles to make ends meet and is prevented from offering his expertise. This is the type of bull that is destroying this country. That couple of grand or two she gets would pay someones dole for a few months. Another example of this type of waste is the exam supervision allowances. Another young teacher who applied to supervise in his local school this Summer, was rejected because some retired teacher got the position ahead of him. The guy who got it lived 50miles away so was also able to claim the additional very generous civil service mileage that is avavilable. The young guy lived within a walk of the school. Madness.[/quote]

For the record, I'll be one of the 200,000 unemployed construction workers in two weeks, worked in the admin side, made ok money, enough to survice pay mortgage, car etc (sorry is that giving away too much information???) It's funny, people on my side seem to think all teachers/gards etc are creaming it and people on teh other side seem to think everyone in construction/property is a millionaire. I know €400 a week isn't huge, but if I had the choice between that or the dole, I know which I'd take. Some day rebel10 (hopefully) you will be made permanent and all this bickering about a few bob will be a distant memory and I'll be mixing mortar in Krakow or Riga!!!

thebman

jimmmy wrote: »

" possible future integration if your pushing for that kind of thing" ??? Then the north would have the same prices as the republioc. If you want most of the 26 counties to have the same prices as the north, you should be looking for the border to move southward, not northwards ;)lol.
As Gay Byrne once said, we wanted ouir independence, we are paying for it.

All things being equal there is no reason why distribution costs alone would be more expensive to Dublin or most of the south than to the North is all I'm trying to say.

Obviously all the other things aren't equal and are unlikely to be but we can have similar vat rates etc... that would make it less likely for people to go North as the differences wouldn't be so massive as they are now.

old boy

thebman wrote: »

All things being equal there is no reason why distribution costs alone would be more expensive to Dublin or most of the south than to the North is all I'm trying to say.

Obviously all the other things aren't equal and are unlikely to be but we can have similar vat rates etc... that would make it less likely for people to go North as the differences wouldn't be so massive as they are now.

do not a major portion of the goods on sale in n.i. come through dublin port.

rebel10

Sizzler wrote: »

I genuinely sympathize with your plight, as you say you are basically doing the same job and are a lot worse off than your elders although Im sure the near retirement people would argue they have years of experience but I agree there should not be such a disconnect between conditions.

You mentioned in an earlier post how some of your peers were doing so much better than you and you are effectively not in a contracted 'safe' position. If this is the case (you obviously feel very hard done by) why dont you seriously consider a new career? The state arent forcing you to stay are they? Im not being smart btw, honest question? I know someone who trained to be a teacher after doing a degree in UCD, did 2 years in similar circumstances and thought it was pants and went and retrained and now works in the private sector. He never once complained or took to the streets though to say he was getting stiffed on wages or conditions, he just got on with it.

Thanks. At this moment in time feel like packing up and walking out after all the crap you put up with due to ageism in the sector. Only prob is i completed a degree in a subject (don't wanna name it in case i get in trouble with bman or whoever again!:P) that i absolutely love to teach, its a subject that most students respond well to, my only issue is with the way we are treated by the union, board of managements, older staff, sadly some parents and not forgetting Mr. Cowen himself!(sorry that was supposed to be a small list, just shows.) Hopefully, with time, teaching will be a profession not to be taken advantage of, although honestly on the whole it's not, with a non-ageist work force.:)

thebman

old boy wrote: »

do not a major portion of the goods on sale in n.i. come through dublin port.

Yes I imagine that is the case but I don't have any proof of that so I'm assuming they should be at least equal.

jimmmy

old boy wrote: »

do not a major portion of the goods on sale in n.i. come through dublin port.

Not a chance, Larne- Stranraer is half the price. It is internal UK freight + no Dublin rip off factor.

rebel10

Rantan wrote: »

Rebel10 - Another example of this type of waste is the exam supervision allowances. Another young teacher who applied to supervise in his local school this Summer, was rejected because some retired teacher got the position ahead of him. The guy who got it lived 50miles away so was also able to claim the additional very generous civil service mileage that is avavilable. The young guy lived within a walk of the school. Madness.

Ya this happens alot, generally a young teacher will find it easier to get exam corrections if they apply, but not exam supervision. Now why would that not shock you?!

For the record, I'll be one of the 200,000 unemployed construction workers in two weeks, worked in the admin side, made ok money, enough to survice pay mortgage, car etc (sorry is that giving away too much information???)

Mind now, some people on this thread would hate for you to be identified by the fact you own a car!:p

It's funny, people on my side seem to think all teachers/gards etc are creaming it and people on teh other side seem to think everyone in construction/property is a millionaire. I know €400 a week isn't huge, but if I had the choice between that or the dole, I know which I'd take. Some day rebel10 (hopefully) you will be made permanent and all this bickering about a few bob will be a distant memory and I'll be mixing mortar in Krakow or Riga!!![/quote]

Thanks, i know 400 in this downturn is pretty good going, am counting my blessings i still have that for the next 7 months anyway, please don't think i am giving out bout my earnings, was just trying to let people know that we aren't all on top wages and that this march, for me, isin't about greed and hanging onto my "secure" job.
Will pop over to Riga for a pint!:)

rebel10

rebel10 wrote: »

Ya this happens alot, generally a young teacher will find it easier to get exam corrections if they apply, but not exam supervision. Now why would that not shock you?!

For the record, I'll be one of the 200,000 unemployed construction workers in two weeks, worked in the admin side, made ok money, enough to survice pay mortgage, car etc (sorry is that giving away too much information???)

Mind now, some people on this thread would hate for you to be identified by the fact you own a car!:p

It's funny, people on my side seem to think all teachers/gards etc are creaming it and people on teh other side seem to think everyone in construction/property is a millionaire. I know €400 a week isn't huge, but if I had the choice between that or the dole, I know which I'd take. Some day rebel10 (hopefully) you will be made permanent and all this bickering about a few bob will be a distant memory and I'll be mixing mortar in Krakow or Riga!!!

Thanks, i know 400 in this downturn is pretty good going, am counting my blessings i still have that for the next 7 months anyway, please don't think i am giving out bout my earnings, was just trying to let people know that we aren't all on top wages and that this march, for me, isin't about greed and hanging onto my "secure" job.
Will pop over to Riga for a pint!:)[/quote]

Rantan

rebel10 wrote: »

Ya this happens alot, generally a young teacher will find it easier to get exam corrections if they apply, but not exam supervision. Now why would that not shock you?!

For the record, I'll be one of the 200,000 unemployed construction workers in two weeks, worked in the admin side, made ok money, enough to survice pay mortgage, car etc (sorry is that giving away too much information???)

Mind now, some people on this thread would hate for you to be identified by the fact you own a car!:p

It's funny, people on my side seem to think all teachers/gards etc are creaming it and people on teh other side seem to think everyone in construction/property is a millionaire. I know €400 a week isn't huge, but if I had the choice between that or the dole, I know which I'd take. Some day rebel10 (hopefully) you will be made permanent and all this bickering about a few bob will be a distant memory and I'll be mixing mortar in Krakow or Riga!!!

Thanks, i know 400 in this downturn is pretty good going, am counting my blessings i still have that for the next 7 months anyway, please don't think i am giving out bout my earnings, was just trying to let people know that we aren't all on top wages and that this march, for me, isin't about greed and hanging onto my "secure" job.
Will pop over to Riga for a pint!:)[/quote]

wasn't it a retired teacher who made the big f**k up during the leaving?? Well worth his big salary and allowances etc etc !!

dresden8

Rantan wrote: »

I know a teacher who is struggling with reduced hours but is managing to survive. He spent 10yrs in IT before going back to college to become a teacher. He knows a lot about computers and networks. He offered to maintain the computers in his school for free becasuse he could do it in his sleep and enjoys it. He was rejected because some middle aged teacher was in line for the next additional duty that was avavilable. So she gets the extra money on top of her generous salary for someting she has absolutley no clue how to do while my mate struggles to make ends meet and is prevented from offering his expertise. This is the type of bull that is destroying this country. That couple of grand or two she gets would pay someones dole for a few months. Another example of this type of waste is the exam supervision allowances. Another young teacher who applied to supervise in his local school this Summer, was rejected because some retired teacher got the position ahead of him. The guy who got it lived 50miles away so was also able to claim the additional very generous civil service mileage that is avavilable. The young guy lived within a walk of the school. Madness.

[/QUOTE]

This is the bullsh1t the government is not prepared to deal with.

Villify all public servants and cut them all is the approach. That waster will still be in receipt of that additional duty allowance to top them up after their pay cut.

nesf

Oh, joy looks like my eight month pregnant wife's ante-natal scan is on the "day of action", I wonder if they'll withdraw these services along with withdrawing addiction unit services and canceling "elective" surgeries.

murphaph

nesf wrote: »

Oh, joy looks like my eight month pregnant wife's ante-natal scan is on the "day of action", I wonder if they'll withdraw these services along with withdrawing addiction unit services and canceling "elective" surgeries.

Your wife is unimportant to these great union leaders. I wonder what Jim Larkin and James Connolly would say if they were alive today....

megaman01

Having read all the above arguments and debates, its fair to say that all the ordinary folk who go out to work everyday, private and public sector have been shafted in this recession..but this is nothing new. My question is whats happens the day after the strike?? do you all just go back to work??? the government have a job to do and introduce cuts, none of us will like it, but thats whats gonna happen...why strike in fear of cuts, you dont even know what the cuts will be yet? the union bosses have totally misjudged this and will look pretty lame when they are going to be interviewed on the 25th after the strikes.

I have some sympathy with the teachers, but most of it their concerns are to do with current practice of protecting the old established teachers and not allowing healthy competition from younger teachers with better drive and ideas on improving the profession. Surely an intelligent bunch of young teachers can get together and make themselves available for teaching on the 24th and leave all the old turds waving their flags and banners!! see who will win favour in the long run!!

thebman

megaman01 wrote: »

Having read all the above arguments and debates, its fair to say that all the ordinary folk who go out to work everyday, private and public sector have been shafted in this recession..but this is nothing new. My question is whats happens the day after the strike?? do you all just go back to work??? the government have a job to do and introduce cuts, none of us will like it, but thats whats gonna happen...why strike in fear of cuts, you dont even know what the cuts will be yet? the union bosses have totally misjudged this and will look pretty lame when they are going to be interviewed on the 25th after the strikes.

I have some sympathy with the teachers, but most of it their concerns are to do with current practice of protecting the old established teachers and not allowing healthy competition from younger teachers with better drive and ideas on improving the profession. Surely an intelligent bunch of young teachers can get together and make themselves available for teaching on the 24th and leave all the old turds waving their flags and banners!! see who will win favour in the long run!!

They'd probably find their bosses would find a way to let them go. Most principals would fit into old turds and not young teacher.

Sizzler

They are marching before the government has even announced any of their planned cuts :rolleyes:

I wonder what they will do afterwards when they actually see what the government has in the budget :eek:

At the end of the day its a free labour market, the government arent holding any of these people by the balls or against their free will, if they think they are being so hard done by, get onto any of the multiple job sites and see if you can find something else. Dont expect the general public to unite in sympathy.

NewDubliner

Sizzler wrote: »

At the end of the day its a free labour market, the government arent holding any of these people by the balls or against their free will, if they think they are being so hard done by, get onto any of the multiple job sites and see if you can find something else. Dont expect the general public to unite in sympathy.

So you're advocating that the government should break all its contracts with anyone who provides services to it and force them to accept lower terms? That's serious hardball.

Sizzler

NewDubliner wrote: »

So you're advocating that the government should break all its contracts with anyone who provides services to it and force them to accept lower terms? That's serious hardball.

Hardball required at the moment I am afraid.

They arent forcing people, they are giving them a choice?

Rantan

NewDubliner wrote: »

So you're advocating that the government should break all its contracts with anyone who provides services to it and force them to accept lower terms? That's serious hardball.

A deficit of €20billion is pretty feckin' hardball!! What alternative can anyone propose to find that €20 billion??

The Volt

Sizzler wrote: »

They are marching before the government has even announced any of their planned cuts :rolleyes:

I wonder what they will do afterwards when they actually see what the government has in the budget :eek:

At the end of the day its a free labour market, the government arent holding any of these people by the balls or against their free will, if they think they are being so hard done by, get onto any of the multiple job sites and see if you can find something else. Dont expect the general public to unite in sympathy.

Sure there's hardly a point in marching when it's too late. Pressure has to be kept up on the government but as somebody who fully supported the last day of action I must say I do not understand this one. Why on earth would the TUI send 'representatives' to the large protest and then have a seperate one completely on their own? Strength in numbers surely?

The Volt

Sizzler wrote: »

Hardball required at the moment I am afraid.

They arent forcing people, they are giving them a choice?

No one is denying that hardball is required but it is very clear that the wrong people are being targeted at the moment. There needs to be a big hit for high earners first. We would still presumably be in the red then but then the lower earners would be able to see some degree of fairness in it as the €100,000 per year and over earners will have paid their fair share.

Sizzler

Voltwad wrote: »

No one is denying that hardball is required but it is very clear that the wrong people are being targeted at the moment. There needs to be a big hit for high earners first. We would still presumably be in the red then but then the lower earners would be able to see some degree of fairness in it as the €100,000 per year and over earners will have paid their fair share.

How do they (or us) know whats not going to happen? I'd be amazed if the govt dont introduce some sort of staggered approach. Cant see them slicing someones wages by 10% if they are in the 25-30k bracket.

The reality is they are marching on the mantra of ifs and buts without actually knowing what they are. Momentum is one thing but striking for something that hasnt materialised yet seems a bit Irish!

The Volt

Sizzler wrote: »

How do they (or us) know whats not going to happen? I'd be amazed if the govt dont introduce some sort of staggered approach. Cant see them slicing someones wages by 10% if they are in the 25-30k bracket.

The reality is they are marching on the mantra of ifs and buts without actually knowing what they are. Momentum is one thing but striking for something that hasnt materialised yet seems a bit Irish!

Well I firmly believe it's too late when it has happened and if there's wind coming from the Dail about certain cuts then more power to them but my point was why are they doing a separate march all to themselves when they could have been in solidarity with the rest. At the march the TUI sent representatives of each branch and now they're going to be all out on a separate day. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Rantan

Voltwad wrote: »

No one is denying that hardball is required but it is very clear that the wrong people are being targeted at the moment. There needs to be a big hit for high earners first. We would still presumably be in the red then but then the lower earners would be able to see some degree of fairness in it as the €100,000 per year and over earners will have paid their fair share.

Agree in principle, but increasing taxes on the wealthy isn;t a magic solution. I dont believe that there are masses and masses of richies sitting on billions of €'s that we can flood the gov coffers with.

Bear with me on the maths of this, this was done very quickly so am open to criticism if i'm off but I think its broadly correct:

someone(single) on 100K pays approx €33,000 tax
someone(single) on 35k pays approx €7,000 tax
(not incl income levy)

that means the 100k person earns 2.86 times more than the 35k but pays 4.71 times more tax. Relatively speaking the wealthy are already paying substantially more tax. i agree there is room to increase taxes marginally but thats only a small part of the solution.

murphaph

Rantan wrote: »

Agree in principle, but increasing taxes on the wealthy isn;t a magic solution. I dont believe that there are masses and masses of richies sitting on billions of €'s that we can flood the gov coffers with.

Bear with me on the maths of this, this was done very quickly so am open to criticism if i'm off but I think its broadly correct:

someone(single) on 100K pays approx €33,000 tax
someone(single) on 35k pays approx €7,000 tax
(not incl income levy)

that means the 100k person earns 2.86 times more than the 35k but pays 4.71 times more tax. Relatively speaking the wealthy are already paying substantially more tax. i agree there is room to increase taxes marginally but thats only a small part of the solution.

This is what I don't understand. We keep hearing this slogan of "tax the rich" (they really mean anyone over say 100k) but as we can see, these people already pay a disproportionate amount of tax. How far do these bearded union leaders think they can push "the rich" before "the rich" just p!ss off to the UK??

I personally don't think taxing someone (regardless of income) over 50% of their income is in any way progressive or likely to lead to economic recovery. It's psychologically draining to know that if you work really hard and get that 100k a year job that from now on of all the extra money you earn you get to take home less than half. We used to have 65% income tax in Ireland-it didn't help.

We should however make sure EVERY worker is in the tax net, regardless of how little they earn. we should introduce many more tax bands, perhaps in 5% increments. If you earn say, 10k a year you pay 5% income tax, not nothing. There are far too many people in Ireland who pay no tax and by and large these aren't "the rich" rather low earners. In Germany there is no concept of not paying tax just because you don't earn much, you just pay a smaller percentage, but you DO pay pax.