Damned United ( the book )

Davidth88

Been travelling this week , I picked this up in Heathrow.

Great book , brings back a lot of memories about Cloughie. Of course it's a work of ' faction ' but enjoyable just the same.

One or two things jumped off the pages.

a) The people who accused Blackburn , and later Chelsea of ' buying the championship ' , Cloughie was doing this in the early 70s with Derby and later Forest.
b) I had forgotten what it was like when there was no transfer windows , bringing in new players left right and centre to fill in for people who were out.

Has anyone else read it , do they remember the Cloughie era with the same fondness I do ?

I fully remember him buying Trevor Francis the first million pound player.

Boggles

Davidth88 wrote: »

I fully remember him buying Trevor Francis the first million pound player.

He was the first £999,999 player.

Keano

Boggles wrote: »

He was the first £999,999 player.

Before the striker's League debut, against Bristol City on 23 February, Clough told him: "Don't worry about what to do. Just give the ball to John Robertson and he'll do the rest." When Francis pointed out that Clough had just paid £1m for him, Clough replied: "Yes, but he's a better player than you.

The Hustler

Revie > Clough

Keano

:mad: :P

Mr. Presentable

The Hustler wrote: »

Revie > Clough

nobody > Clough

Best there ever was. A provincial little club to Champions of Europe - twice! When it actually meant something.

Davidth88

As an England fan my thoughts about Don Revie are always a bit tainted.

I don't really remember the Leeds sides from the late 60's , I fully rememeber the CFC VS LUFC cup final(s) .

I really only remember the Notts Forest sides that went of to real glory in Europe . Clough was to my mind a great mgr , would have really loved to see in in the England job but in those days it was a time that you had to be ' establishment ' to get anywhere.

It's interesting how many players mentioned so far went on to play for Chelsea ( I am a CFC fan )

So far ( from memory ) Dennis Rofe , Duncan McKenzie

pierrot

Recommend you read Duncan Hamilton's book so.

event

read this and the duncan hamilton book

the hamilton book is excellent, but this is just tosh. fair enough im a leeds fan but the entire book is pretty much made up.

the fact his wife and son didnt want it released says it all for me

The Hustler

Clough was nothing without Peter Taylor

Davidth88

As I said in the OP , I totally understand this book is ' faction ' ie total fiction based on some facts.

But I am enjoying it, I also think it captures some of the feeling of the time

oldyouth

As a Leeds fan from that era, I thought it was a very good read and filled in a lots of blanks in my understanding of what went on at the time.

A then watched the DVD of the book and it isn't up to much at all. Too many important bits left out

Orchard Rebel

Davidth88 wrote: »

The people who accused Blackburn , and later Chelsea of ' buying the championship ' , Cloughie was doing this in the early 70s with Derby and later Forest.

Er, let's get a bit of perspective here. In the summer prior to Forest winning the Championship, Liverpool spent almost as much money on one player, Kenny Dalglish, as Clough spent refitting the entire Forest squad. When you allow for outgoings (and yes Liverpool did sell Keegan), Forest were outspent by several other clubs.

The Hustler wrote: »

Clough was nothing without Peter Taylor

Without Peter Taylor, Clough won the League Cup twice (in 1989 and 1990)....and took us to another final in 1992.....and to an FA Cup Final in 1991 (having reached the semis in 1988 and 1989)...and to a UEFA Cup semi-final in 1984 (where Anderlecht paid £30,000 to the ref to throw the second leg)... and to the top three in the league on three occasions.....whilst playing the best football in the league and usually finishing top of the disciplinary table.

The Hustler

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Er, let's get a bit of perspective here. In the summer prior to Forest winning the Championship, Liverpool spent almost as much money on one player, Kenny Dalglish, as Clough spent refitting the entire Forest squad. When you allow for outgoings (and yes Liverpool did sell Keegan), Forest were outspent by several other clubs.



Without Peter Taylor, Clough won the League Cup twice (in 1989 and 1990)....and took us to another final in 1992.....and to an FA Cup Final in 1991 (having reached the semis in 1988 and 1989)...and to a UEFA Cup semi-final in 1984 (where Anderlecht paid £30,000 to the ref to throw the second leg)... and to the top three in the league on three occasions.....whilst playing the best football in the league and usually finishing top of the disciplinary table.

So he won 2 Carling Cups without Taylor........

Ping Chow Chi

Davidth88 wrote: »

Been travelling this week , I picked this up in Heathrow.

Great book , brings back a lot of memories about Cloughie. Of course it's a work of ' faction ' but enjoyable just the same.

One or two things jumped off the pages.

a) The people who accused Blackburn , and later Chelsea of ' buying the championship ' , Cloughie was doing this in the early 70s with Derby and later Forest.

....well if that's what jumps out of the book you have put me off reading it, thanks for the warning!

Orchard Rebel

The Hustler wrote: »

So he won 2 Carling Cups without Taylor........

Better than "nothing" as you put it....and one more major trophy than Leeds won in the same period - and two more than Chelsea come to think of it. Not bad for a provincial club in a city one-third the size of Leeds.

If Clough without Taylor was "nothing", he was still more successful than most of his contemporaries and plenty that have managed since.

Mushy

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Better than "nothing" as you put it....and one more major trophy than Leeds won in the same period - and two more than Chelsea come to think of it. Not bad for a provincial club in a city one-third the size of Leeds.

If Clough without Taylor was "nothing", he was still more successful than most of his contemporaries and plenty that have managed since.

Didn't Leeds win a league around this time?

grenache

Davidth88 wrote: »

a) The people who accused Blackburn , and later Chelsea of ' buying the championship ' , Cloughie was doing this in the early 70s with Derby and later Forest.

With all due respect, that is totally bull. The team that Forest won the league title with in '78 was largely the same team that had been promoted from the Second Division the previous season. Only Trevor Francis and Peter Shilton were big money additions. The two centre halves, Larry Lloyd and Kenny Burns, and midfielder Archie Gemmill were bought for very modest sums. Gary Birtles was picked up for a pittance. O'Neill, Robertson, McGovern, Woodcock, Anderson, and the rest were already at the club for a good few years. I know Clough only added 6 or 7 players to the Derby squad after taking over. The likes of Alan Hinton, Dave McKay, John McGovern. None of them were bought for large sums. Chelsea and Blackburn did much more wheeling and dealing and on a far grander scale. Neither Forest nor Derby were owned by multi millionaires. Jack Walker pumped millions into Blackburn, spending over £20m on players between 91 and 97. Chelsea of course have Abromovich and we all know how much he has spent on the squad they have. Several of Forest and Derby players in the 70s were brought up thru their own academy. The likes of Martin O Neill, John Robertson, Tony Woodcock, Archie Gemmill, Kevin Hector. In comparison, Blackburn and Chelsea had very few homegrown players in their sides, i can think of only Paul Warhurst at Blackburn and John Terry and Solomon Kalou at Chelsea. Clough won the league twice through excellent man management and getting the best out of his players while spending for the most part very modestly. Chelsea and Blackburn spent millions assembling very expensive squads with players brought in from all over Europe. Clough did in no way buy the league.

grenache

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Better than "nothing" as you put it....and one more major trophy than Leeds won in the same period - and two more than Chelsea come to think of it. Not bad for a provincial club in a city one-third the size of Leeds.

If Clough without Taylor was "nothing", he was still more successful than most of his contemporaries and plenty that have managed since.

Not forgetting the UEFA Cup semi final in 84 that Forest were cheated out of when Anderlecht bribed the ref. I think they would have beaten Spurs in the final.

Edit: You can add the Zenith Data Systems Cup and Symod Cup to that list of trophies Clough won. These were cup competitions started by the FA for Division One sides to placate those English clubs left without European competition due to the ban placed on them after Heysel. (Nice one Liverpool!). Winning these cups could be equated to the winning of an FA Cup, given the quality of the teams involved.

dannydiamond

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Er, let's get a bit of perspective here. In the summer prior to Forest winning the Championship, Liverpool spent almost as much money on one player, Kenny Dalglish, as Clough spent refitting the entire Forest squad. When you allow for outgoings (and yes Liverpool did sell Keegan), Forest were outspent by several other clubs.

Can we not have one thread where Liverpools spending isn't brought up.:pac:

I haven't read the book but the movie was excellent,easily one of the best ever football movies.

Davidth88

Hi,
Ok I stand corrected on the ' buying the league ' thing perhaps I should clarify what I actually meant

What it was , the wheeling dealing that went on , ie they lose a game and Peter Taylor says ' I know a player who can fix that ' and off they go.

No obviously the sums involved were smaller , partly because money was a different thing then , partly because the world was a larger place then.


Glad I opened some debate , about someone I feel was the best mgr I ever remember

Orchard Rebel

grenache wrote: »

Not forgetting the UEFA Cup semi final in 84 that Forest were cheated out of when Anderlecht bribed the ref. I think they would have beaten Spurs in the final.

Never likely to forget that match. I was at the first leg at the City Ground when we won 2-0. I've also seen the footage of the infamous 3-0 defeat in Brussels - particularly the dive by Vandenbergh (I think) for the penalty which would have made Christiano Ronaldo blush.

We'd have taken Spurs over two legs.....

grenache

Orchard Rebel wrote: »

Never likely to forget that match. I was at the first leg at the City Ground when we won 2-0. I've also seen the footage of the infamous 3-0 defeat in Brussels - particularly the dive by Vandenbergh (I think) for the penalty which would have made Christiano Ronaldo blush.

We'd have taken Spurs over two legs.....

I would dearly love to meet those cheats in European competition sometime in the near future. They got a paltry 1 season ban from Europe in '98 for that bribe. Not much good to Forest that was it! They should have been thrown out of Europe for a decade, that would teach them and any other club to think twice about cheating.

vestanpance

grenache wrote: »

With all due respect, that is totally bull. The team that Forest won the league title with in '78 was largely the same team that had been promoted from the Second Division the previous season. Only Trevor Francis and Peter Shilton were big money additions. The two centre halves, Larry Lloyd and Kenny Burns, and midfielder Archie Gemmill were bought for very modest sums. Gary Birtles was picked up for a pittance. O'Neill, Robertson, McGovern, Woodcock, Anderson, and the rest were already at the club for a good few years. I know Clough only added 6 or 7 players to the Derby squad after taking over. The likes of Alan Hinton, Dave McKay, John McGovern. None of them were bought for large sums. Chelsea and Blackburn did much more wheeling and dealing and on a far grander scale. Neither Forest nor Derby were owned by multi millionaires. Jack Walker pumped millions into Blackburn, spending over £20m on players between 91 and 97. Chelsea of course have Abromovich and we all know how much he has spent on the squad they have. Several of Forest and Derby players in the 70s were brought up thru their own academy. The likes of Martin O Neill, John Robertson, Tony Woodcock, Archie Gemmill, Kevin Hector. In comparison, Blackburn and Chelsea had very few homegrown players in their sides, i can think of only Paul Warhurst at Blackburn and John Terry and Solomon Kalou at Chelsea. Clough won the league twice through excellent man management and getting the best out of his players while spending for the most part very modestly. Chelsea and Blackburn spent millions assembling very expensive squads with players brought in from all over Europe. Clough did in no way buy the league.

What

bullpost

Davidth88 wrote: »

As an England fan my thoughts about Don Revie are always a bit tainted.

I don't really remember the Leeds sides from the late 60's , I fully rememeber the CFC VS LUFC cup final(s) .

I really only remember the Notts Forest sides that went of to real glory in Europe . Clough was to my mind a great mgr , would have really loved to see in in the England job but in those days it was a time that you had to be ' establishment ' to get anywhere.

It's interesting how many players mentioned so far went on to play for Chelsea ( I am a CFC fan )

So far ( from memory ) Dennis Rofe , Duncan McKenzie

I haven't read the book but saw the film and also a documentary which was screened in the last six months about Clough and what struck me about Clough was how similar to Mourinho he was. Both supremely confident managers with a very sharp wit and intelligence. both very articuate and very different to other successful managers , such as Ferguson and Wenger who would be less enamoured by the public side of football.

grenache

vestanpance wrote: »

What

Was he not brought up through the Chelsea academy? If he wasn't then it just proves my point even further. Chelsea have very little academy players in their side. Most of them are shipped out on loan, the likes of Carlton Cole and Michael Mancienne.

vestanpance

grenache wrote: »

Was he not brought up through the Chelsea academy? If he wasn't then it just proves my point even further. Chelsea have very little academy players in their side. Most of them are shipped out on loan, the likes of Carlton Cole and Michael Mancienne.

I get your point and agree with you but Kalou was bought from Feyenoord for a fee rumoured to be over £9,000,000.